🔥 Liberals need to be told that hitchhiking in Muslim countries greatly increases your chance of encounters with rapists and murderers, apparently.
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What do you mean? It's exactly what's going on in this thread!
That she had proving Muslims are okay in mind might be an irony
You already contradicted yourself!
but it neither makes the crime any less heinous, nor the perpetrator himself any less guilty
You sound like you believe someone here believes this.
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What do you mean? It's exactly what's going on in this thread!
That she had proving Muslims are okay in mind might be an irony, but it neither makes the crime any less heinous, nor the perpetrator himself any less guilty, nor the group responsibility any more okay.
Your (daughter, sister, mother, best female friend) says she is going to hitchhike from Italy to the southern tip of Saudi Arabia, what do you say in response?
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@boomzilla said:
It probably cares more that I've wasted several minutes of my life corresponding with you.
Good of you to recognize the upper boundary of your intellectual capacity.
Oh, yes. I certainly don't believe that I'll be able to talk sense into lazy thinkers who like to call people racist.
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Unless we're having a debate on whether hitchhiking is dangerous or not, in which case yes it is, sure. But that's not what we're debating.
It isn't. We are debating how it is inherently more dangerous to hitchhike through an area where you have no rights and law says that you are a piece of meat.
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That she had proving Muslims are okay ... neither makes the crime any less heinous, nor the perpetrator himself any less guilty
I actually don't disagree with that statement. It's just not the main point I was trying to make. The fact that you wanted to make it is perfectly okay by me.
What about a woman that doesn't feel safe hitchhiking specifically with men? What about a woman who doesn't feel safe around men, just because they're men?
Is her fear rational, and does it relate to the degree of risk?
According to Wikipedia,
2011 arrest data from the FBI: Males comprised 98.0% of those arrested for forcible rape
So in order to consider this ratio "not that severe" and the ratio of Muslim rape perpetrators to all rape perpetrators "severe", you'd have to fetch data with, let's be generous, about 99,8%. I'll wait.
Really?! 2011... you do realize that, in 2011, the definition of "rape" still being used by the FBI was:
The longstanding, narrow definition of forcible rape, first established in 1927, is “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will.” It thus included only forcible male penile penetration of a female vagina and excluded oral and anal penetration; rape of males; penetration of the vagina and anus with an object or body part other than the penis; rape of females by females; and non-forcible rape.
By that definition, the surprise is that 2% of the arrests were women. Since, by definition (that definition), women cannot rape.
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Oh, yes. I certainly don't believe that I'll be able to talk sense into lazy thinkers who like to call people racist.
Just calling it like it is. You just don't like it, that's all, probably because it hits uncomfortably close to home.
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No, but you think anyone who doesn't take every single step to prevent themselves from being mugged, raped, killed, etc, deserves anything that was coming to them.
You are conflating.
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where you have no rights and law says that you are a piece of meat.
Which is not a result of Islam but rather of a failed state.
I mean, it's not that long ago (1970) that German husbands were allowed to tell their wives that they had to quit their job (in fact, they were allowed to quit the wife's job for her).
Raping your wife also wasn't considered a crime. That was changed in 1997.
Also back then, if you raped a woman while she was camping you would get *less of a punishment than if you stole her tent.
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Just calling it like it is.
Exactly.
You just don't like it, that's all, probably because it hits uncomfortably close to home.
You would think that. Like I said: lazy thinker.
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So if the statistics say men are more likely to commit murder than women (which, by the way, is true by a huge margin), it would be this much more stupid to hitchhike with a man than with a woman? Or engage in any other social activity, for that matter?
You don't seem to understand risk management. You are free to do whatever you like. You are stupid for not managing the risks.
There are alternative risk-management choices than complete avoidance.
Let me put it another way. Would you teach abstinence in school and avoid giving people condoms?
Why would you then give kids condoms?
Because events outside of their control have increased risk, and a condom helps manage that risk.
Other people are outside the hitchhiking woman's control. She can avoid hitchhiking, avoid hitchhiking in certain areas, or take people with her, or arm herself with mace. All of those are valid risk management choices.
She apparently chose to do none of that, because she was trying to make a point that is completely wrong.
And, even if she successfully made it without being harmed, she still would have not proven anything, because avoiding a few violent people by chance is not proof of everyone being peaceful.
So, her actions were stupid, because she did nothing to manage the risk.
But blaming Muslims in general for rape is a-okay.
Show me where I did that?
No, but you think anyone who doesn't take every single step to prevent themselves from being mugged, raped, killed, etc, deserves anything that was coming to them.
Show me where I said that?
I said that taking NO actions to mitigate the risk is stupid.
You could take those precautions, but it shouldn't be your responsibility to do so.
You miss the point that determining who is responsible does not stop rape.
Which is more important to you? Avoiding rape, or making a political point.So the ends justify the means? As long as the amount of rapes drop, it's okay if we tell women to cover their heathen bodies and steer clear of men?
You're mixing up personal choices with the justice system.
This is the big logical fallacy of all social justice arguments.Also, you've introduce a false dilemma, where you seem to think we can only address risk management or policing crime.
So if your flatmate rapes you, it's your problem. Ooookay.
Again, I will not address fault, subjective morality makes it pointless.
What can I objectively address?
In priority order.
- Flatmate should be arrested and tried by the justice system.
- I should take precautions to defend myself. Being selective helps.
That's two different entities handling two different things.
Since society has already established system to control crime, the remainder is up to the individual to manage the risks.
What makes traveling with a Muslim more dangerous than traveling with a white clean-shaved man?
Let's remove human faculty to answer this question:
What makes selecting a red ball more likely?
- Selecting from a bag of 99 blue balls and 1 red ball.
- Selecting from a bag of 90 blue balls and 1 red ball.
but when it's conservative media it's totally okay.
Outside of a few idiots, I don't think fault is ever used.
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What makes traveling with a Muslim more dangerous than traveling with a white clean-shaved man? Because, if you haven't noticed, @anotherusername isn't calling for a Darwin award for hitchhiking, just hitchhiking with Muslims.
The fact that in many Muslim countries women have no rights?
And let's be honest, if she was just trying to get from point A to point B and not being liberal, the whole peanut gallery here would be bleeding their hearts away. But hey, a liberal is half a person.
No. Her being a Liberal is incidental to the fact that she tried to do something stupidly dangerous to prove that all Muslims are peaceful respecters of women, and got herself killed in the process. Her chances of being raped and killed went up when she started traveling alone through regions that see women as property and meat.
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I wouldn't even hitchhike with strange men. Or with strange women for that matter.
So, not only an Islamophobe but a gutless Islamophobe. Every day in every way, just better and better and better.
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The fact that in many Muslim countries women have no rights?
Not that long ago that they didn't have many rights in Germany. See my edit above.
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I do wonder though if some of the racists in this thread recognize that all their pretty examples of "muslim countries" also happen not to be first world countries.
Because surely something like "poverty", "bad education", "non-functioning police" and "corrupt justice system" can't have something to do with crime rates.
Religion must be the sole cause. I mean, surely anyone of use would tramp through a favela in Rio at night. After all, there are no muslims there!
Those are absolutely contributing factors. But you are blinding yourself if you do not think that a religion that has no rights for women is not a contributing factor also.
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So, not only an Islamophobe but a gutless Islamophobe.
Why is selectively increasing your risk for zero reward a brave thing to do?
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I've never hitchhiked myself, but I've taken hitchhikers in the past (I don't have a car anymore), sometimes more than one at the same time. I was always alone and unarmed (like most of my county's population, as it happens).
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Not that long ago that they didn't have many rights in Germany. See my edit above.
Another false dilemma.
I do not say some Muslim countries have higher risk because they are Muslim.
I say some Muslim countries have higher risk because of what their religious and political leaders have said about women.
If Germans said the same thing, I would say hitchhiking through Germany would be stupid too.
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Those are absolutely contributing factors. But you are blinding yourself if you do not think that a religion that has no rights for women is not a contributing factor also.
Christianity also isn't very enlightened in that regard.
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Sure, let's all be paranoid. Best not to leave home, you never know if that cashier at the store won't drag you to the back of the shop, or if that bartender won't slip you a mickey.
Yes, bad shit happens. No, it doesn't mean we should just assume every piece of bad shit will happen to us.
No, you should not be paranoid. But you should be prepared. You should be aware. You should be cognizant of your surroundings.
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@Polygeekery said:
Those are absolutely contributing factors. But you are blinding yourself if you do not think that a religion that has no rights for women is not a contributing factor also.
Christianity also isn't very enlightened in that regard.
This is gonna be good.
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This is gonna be good.
You can't get much more damned than being responsible for The Fall of Man :)
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@Polygeekery said:
Those are absolutely contributing factors. But you are blinding yourself if you do not think that a religion that has no rights for women is not a contributing factor also.
Christianity also isn't very enlightened in that regard.
When I hear evidence that shows that women hitchhiking through the Bible Belt have an extraordinarily, unusually, shockingly high chance of being raped and/or killed - as compared to the more enlightened parts of the country that have put their religious pasts behind them - then I'll concede that point.
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@mott555 said:
This is gonna be good.
You can't get much more damned than being responsible for The Fall of Man :)
@Polygeekery is not particularly pro-Christian from what I recall, so bringing that up with him will not have the effect you seek.
Also, I think you're conflating Satan with Eve.
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Apples to oranges. Let's take a real comparison:
A Brazilian favela.
Christianity is the predominant religion there.
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Also, I think you're conflating Satan with Eve.
Well, she took the apple so that makes her responsible. Not my idea.
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Which is not a result of Islam but rather of a failed state.
Really? Are you sure about that? Is Saudi Arabia a "failed state"? Because in Saudi Arabia you can be stoned to death if you have been raped.
I mean, it's not that long ago (1970) that German husbands were allowed to tell their wives that they had to quit their job (in fact, they were allowed to quit the wife's job for her).
Raping your wife also wasn't considered a crime. That was changed in 1997.
Also back then, if you raped a woman while she was camping you would get *less of a punishment than if you stole her tent.
Was Germany a failed state then?
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Christianity also isn't very enlightened in that regard.
Let's see, it had a woman Judge in the old Testament. You know, leader of all of the nation.
The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 1 Corinthians 7:4
Then the woman went to all the people with her wise advice, and they cut off the head of Sheba son of Bikri and threw it to Joab. So he sounded the trumpet, and his men dispersed from the city, each returning to his home. And Joab went back to the king in Jerusalem. 2 Samuel 20:22
In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered. 1 Peter 3:7
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. Ephesians 5:25
The Bible has a lot that seems to make the women 2nd class, until you read the whole thing.
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Apples to oranges. Let's take a real comparison:
A Brazilian favela.
Christianity is the predominant religion there.
Brazil has a terrible reputation for criminality. I don't think I've ever heard that blamed on prevalence of Christianity. How does it contribute? In the same way that Islam seems to effect cultures based on it with respect to women?
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Oh, yay, cherry picking from the Bible!
Let's do Leviticus next!
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Christianity also isn't very enlightened in that regard.
As a militant atheist, you are preaching to the choir. But most countries that are predominantly Christian are not theocracies. That is why as an atheist heathen I can eat shellfish and work on Sunday. Buying booze on Sunday may be a problem though, depending on where you live.
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Was Germany a failed state then?
Maybe "failed" is too strong a word. But it definitely wasn't a nice place to be if your opinions differed from the majority of the populace.
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Cherry-picking. If Christianity was actually the reason rape and/or murder of women is commonplace at a Brazilian favela, then it would also be commonplace in other places where Christianity is the predominant religion. So all you really did was to prove that, if rape and murder are happening often at Brazilian favelas, then Christianity isn't to blame for that.
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Sure the old law had laws that treated the genders differently.
But I'd love to see a verse from Islam that says women are equal, at all, anywhere, in any capacity.
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@Polygeekery is not particularly pro-
Christianreligion of any shape or form from what I recallFTFY ;)
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Let's do Leviticus next!
Let's see,
Paul says he doesn't ask Gentiles to follow the law because salvation is more important, and grace forgives any trespasses.
Jesus says the most important law is loving God then loving each other as you would yourself (equality).
Peter says Jesus law is the new law to follow and the old law was fulfilled by Christ.Peter then goes on to make women equal to men in every category.
And in only one city does Paul complain about women preaching because they aren't educated and have no formal training in understanding the scripture.This makes Jesus, Peter, and Paul the most progressive people in their time.
And then Muhammad comes along and says that Christianity's liberalism departed from the will of God, and reinstates sexist laws.
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If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in
the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the
cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered
meat?If you take anything you find the Daily Fail at face value, it's your fault.
The actual issue here is that Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali has about as much difficulty making himself understood as @xaade, and is almost as much fun to take out of context.
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Sure the old law had laws that treated the genders differently.
But I'd love to see a verse from Islam that says women are equal, at all, anywhere, in any capacity.
He has created you from a single being; then from that He made its mate.
(Ch 39: V.7)‘A person who is blessed with a daughter or daughters and makes no discrimination between them and his sons and brings them up with kindness and affection, will be as close to me in Paradise as my forefinger and middle finger are to each other.’
(Muslim II, Section Beneficence).But whoso does good works, whether male or female, and is a believer, such shall enter Heaven
(Ch.4: V.125)There you are.
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You already contradicted yourself!
I don't see that. She allegedly (though from what I see we only have @anotherusername's conjecture for this) got killed by a Muslim while proving Muslims are good. It's ironic, yeah. And absolutely nothing else.
Your (daughter, sister, mother, best female friend) says she is going to hitchhike from Italy to the southern tip of Saudi Arabia, what do you say in response?
Your (daughter, sister, mother, best female friend) gets raped and killed hitchhiking from Italy to the southern tip of Saudi Arabia, what's your reaction?
Maybe she shouldn't have done that, and maybe that girl who got raped elsewhere wouldn't have if she didn't wear that dress. What does it matter?
Really?! 2011... you do realize that, in 2011, the definition of "rape" being used by the FBI was:
Well, bring some statistics that use your prefered definition.
Or just substitute "homicide" for "rape", with 90,3% to beat.
Other people are outside the hitchhiking woman's control. She can avoid hitchhiking, avoid hitchhiking in certain areas, or take people with her, or arm herself with mace. All of those are valid risk management choices.
But according to the statistics I've quoted, engaging into any activity with men is just plain retarded. There's a limit beyond which risk management is paranoia, and using relative ratios doesn't help it at all - let me remind you that the original argument was not about hitchhiking in general, but specifically about hitchhiking with Muslims.
In priority order.
- Flatmate should be arrested and tried by the justice system.
Duh.
- I should take precautions to defend myself. Being selective helps.
So I guess you're the kind of person that would put "only whites" in their apartment rental conditions? Sure, being selective helps, but it's generally considered an achievement of civilization that we're able to be selective towards people, not groups of them.
Nobody's saying you should be okay living with a crazy meth addict. But telling black people to fuck off because they might be meth addicts isn't really okay now, is it?
Let's remove human faculty to answer this question:
No let's not. Blue balls don't give a shit that you give up on them or treat them like they're worthless just because there's a red ball among them. Human faculty is what this argument's about.
The fact that in many Muslim countries women have no rights?
In pretty much all Muslim countries, rape is considered a crime punishable by jail time. So's murder, obviously. There are problems with enforcement, but I don't get your bit about "women's rights" at all. They do have a right not to get raped.
Why is selectively increasing your risk for zero reward a brave thing to do?
Why do people climb mountains? Do sports? Race cars?
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Peter then goes on to make women equal to men in every category.
Wut.
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. [Eph. 5:22–30]
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@Rhywden said:
Christianity also isn't very enlightened in that regard.
As a militant atheist, you are preaching to the choir. But most countries that are predominantly Christian are not theocracies. That is why as an atheist heathen I can eat shellfish and work on Sunday. Buying booze on Sunday may be a problem though, depending on where you live.
The predominant difference is that Christianity is fairly live-and-let-live. We're supposed to be "in the world but not of the world." Even Old Testament Law (at least the religious laws like observance of feasts and sacrifices, not the practical ones like don't murder and steal) was only to be applied to the Jewish believers, not to everyone living in Israel, which kind of makes it a theocracy only for those who want to partake in the theocracy, I guess.
Islam, on the other hand, has that whole "infidels are all second-class citizens" thing built right into it, along with a bunch of nasty Sharia law that applies to them, but not to Muslims, so things get very bad for non-Muslims when Islamic believers are in charge. For example, Muslims are legally allowed to convert non-Muslims, but the reverse is punishable by death.
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Premise: Hitchhiking is dangerous.
Additionally: Third world countries are more dangerous than first world countries.What, then, is not a bad idea of choosing a third world country to prove that people of the dominant religion there are peaceful by hitchhiking?
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I would not feel safe hitchhiking, even with a .40 cal tucked in to my back.
Leave the .40 behind and come hitchhike in Australia. Most likely outcome is that you'll meet loads of friendly drivers and not end up dead.
No guarantees, obviously. But then, what interesting things can be done that can be guaranteed never to kill you?
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And right after that:
This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. [Eph 5:32]
In what you just quoted, Christ is the "husband" and the church is the "wife".
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Your (daughter, sister, mother, best female friend) gets raped and killed hitchhiking from Italy to the southern tip of Saudi Arabia, what's your reaction?
Maybe she shouldn't have done that, and maybe that girl who got raped elsewhere wouldn't have if she didn't wear that dress. What does it matter?
You did not answer the question. Will you tell her that it is a great idea because everyone in those areas is peaceful and respectful of women? Or will you tell her the truth, that it is a stupid idea because she is about to pass through several areas where she will be considered a second-class citizen and could be stoned to death for being raped?
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The predominant difference is that Christianity is fairly live-and-let-live.
Now it is.
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Leave the .40 behind and come hitchhike in Australia. Most likely outcome is that you'll meet loads of friendly drivers and not end up dead.
But in Australia he'd need the .40 to defend against man-sized venomous spiders.
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In pretty much all Muslim countries, rape is considered a crime punishable by jail time. So's murder, obviously. There are problems with enforcement, but I don't get your bit about "women's rights" at all. They do have a right not to get raped.
They do?
Under Sharia law, a law generally enforced by the Islamic states(Islamic Law), punishment imposed by the court on the rapist may range from flogging to execution. However, there is no penal code in Saudi Arabia and there is no written law which specifically criminalizes rape or prescribes its punishment. If the rape victim first entered the rapist's company in violation of purdah, she also stands to be punished by the law's current holdings.[2] In addition, there is no prohibition against marital rape or statutory rape.
In Saudi Arabia, rape cases usually target both the defendant and the victim,[3] and in some cases, the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.[2]
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In what you just quoted, Christ is the "husband" and the church is the "wife".
I know. But it was interpreted this way and as the Bible is pretty much dependant on interpretations, there was an obvious result.
Stoning of Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow - Wikipedia
