🔥 Doctor, my leg hurts when I stab it with this JavaScript!
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Funny thing about the "web application / website" controversy is that really, both sides are right. Depending on the context of conversation, an SPA both is and is not a webpage.
Some other examples of the same linguistic phenomenon:
- We have ten fingers, but thumbs aren't fingers.
- There can be a lot of cars on the road, but minivans, SUVs, and pickup trucks aren't cars.
- The kids can go play at their friend's houses, but apartments and trailers aren't houses.
- You can see the animals at the zoo, but birds aren't animals.
- You can have a meat-free diet, but fish and fowl aren't meat.
It all depends on the distinctions that are important to the particular conversation.
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no website should require JS to be enabled for browsing the site.
How's gmail work for you sans JS?
A web application is a website
yes, well, what about an LOB app like payroll or something? If someone wants to be a special snowflake and try to use the application their job requires while crippling it's functionality they deserve the firing they're likely to get.
But these are special cases, I admit.
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How's gmail work for you sans JS?
And that's justification for a fucking white screen when JS is disabled?Seriously, with all the fucking bitching that goes on around here when companies fuck up their UX, why do fucking websites get a free fucking pass to be utterly shitty?
But hey, I'm sure those extra five fucking minutes you save not adding a simple fucking message were better spent wanking off to some fetish porn, I guess.
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And that's justification for a fucking white screen when JS is disabled?
All modern browsers that anyone who's not a weirdo like RMS care about come with JS enabled. You're the weirdo who turned it off. It's not 1989, nobody caters to buggy-whip users any more.
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How's gmail work for you sans JS?
It has already been established that the complaint is not (entirely) that the site doesn't work, but that the site should at least display something other than a blank page (like a message that it needs JS) without it. Even terrible, horrible, no good, very bad Discourse manages to have some functionality without it; a simple "This site needs Javascript" message is not too much to ask.
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Oh, I'm sorry, is
#TEN FUCKING SECONDS TO ADD A FUCKING NOSCRIPT TAG TOO FUCKING MUCH FOR YOU? Ten. Fucking. Seconds. And your website DOESN'T LOOK COMPLETELY FUCKING BROKEN!Oh, of course, how stupid of me. I'm the only fucker here stupid enough to
#GIVE A FUCK ABOUT USERS.
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Oh, and before you ask,
#YES I FUCKING TURN ON FUCKING JAVASCRIPT WHEN I'M ON A FUCKING WEBSITE THAT FUCKING NEEDS IT YOU ARROGANT FUCKING TWAT.
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Have you ever thought that maybe
#I DON'T WANT RANDOM FUCKING TRACKING SCRIPTS EXECUTING BEFORE I'VE HAD A FUCKING CHANCE TO VET THE FUCKING SITE?
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It isn't the fucking point.
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Oh, of course, how stupid of me. I'm the only fucker here stupid enough to
GIVE A FUCK ABOUT USERS.
The point is that they do and cater for the vast majority which has JS fucking enabled.
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<noscript>This site requires Javascript</noscript>
Less than ten seconds, and now I've catered for the rest.
It.
Is.
That.
Fucking.
Easy.
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How many laps are we going to do around this argument?
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Nobody gives a shit apart from you.
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Yeah yeah, paint it as all my fucking fault. Why not? Hey, why not blame me for all the other shit too?
Or, y'know, you could GIVE A FUCK ABOUT USERS!
How fucking many more times do I… in fact, y'know what, fuck you all. Go screw over your users. Seriously, go fuck them with spiky purple dildos or something. Hey, why not make them explosive? Really fuck them over?
You all fucking disgust me.
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Hey, since you all care so fucking little, how about I just go kill myself eh? That make you all happy?
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good lord...post edited for stupid -bz
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Is not an argument for anything.
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I don;t give a shit.
And
#FUCK YOU
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good lord...post edited for stupid. -bz
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Are you testing how quickly you are able to press CTRL V repeatedly?
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I care.
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I care.
I try to care as well, I just get scolded when "wasting time" doing so by my superiors....
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I wouldn't spend 10s doing something for crazy people that disable js on 2016.
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And she's gone again.
Temper temper...
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I just find it weird that happens, you know? Anyway, she just got angrier than Blakey on a bad day, for indeterminate reasons. Though you guys did push her a bit hard.
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Wasn't me this time.
Also it wasn't really funny this time, either. Shame.
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for indeterminate reasons. Though you guys did push her a bit hard.
From my interpretation, @RaceProUK has bad days more often than not, and her passion sometimes overrides her sensibility and knowledge that sometimes it's better to just walk away from the "idiots".
@Accalia, you have a bit more experience finding ways to let the water flow under the bridge despite how ugly and infuriating it is. When the bridge stops swaying, would you be our arbitrator?
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I'm the only fucker here stupid enough to
GIVE A FUCK ABOUT USERS.run without javascriptFTFY, Corporal Crankypants.
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Or, y'know, you could GIVE A FUCK ABOUT USERS!
Users who have deliberately chosen to circumevent the site by disabling javascript?
The funny thing is I don't actually disagree with you-I just think that, since it's not 1989, and every browser already supports JS, you're asking people who write web sites to cater to your disabled browser. I mean, do you get screamingly mad when sites don't use alt tags, too?
I'm imagining this in other areas of life. "I took the headlights out of my car and now I can't see at night. WHY CAN'T EVERYONE PUT UP STREETLIGHTS ON EVERY ROAD TO CATER TO MY ness?!"
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Hey, since you all care so fucking little, how about I just go kill myself eh? That make you all happy?
Hey everybody, that guy from The Horns of Nimon finally got out-overacted.
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Don't you think that was enough baiting for a day?
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Because, you fucking dipshit, there are threads like this one where people disable JS entirely, as well as people like me who run Ghostery and find surprising amounts of the web broken because they're designed for and cater to privileged people like you who feel that designing for graceful degradation is and unnecessary.
Thank fuck you don't build web resources.
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privileged people like you
Is JavaScript privilege a thing now?
"Check your JavaScript privilege, dude, I got nothing but a Kindle to browse your page on!"
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FrostCat seems to be acting like it.
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Because, you fucking dipshit, there are threads like this one where people disable JS entirely, as well as people like me who run Ghostery and find surprising amounts of the web broken because they're designed for and cater to privileged people like you who feel that designing for graceful degradation is and unnecessary.
Try explaining to your employer why it took twice as fucking long to do something. The explanation "Some nerds on thedailywtf.com forms won't like your website with JS disabled" won't cut it.
I build almost everything where feasible with unobtrusive JavaScript. But it is increasingly becoming impossible with some of the business requirements I have had to implement. A lot of the stuff I work with is real time or damn near it applications. Mixing HTML and JS with timeouts just doesn't cut it.
Other times I had to get around the server side deficiencies (I couldn't change the code) with client side logic. While not ideal it wasn't a security problem so yes the website would behave strangely otherwise, but otherwise it was secure.
If you browse the web with most of the features disabled, you will get a broken experience and you should expect it. I will be the first to argue that at work we should support all browsers that should be able to display the website without an excessive amount of hacks ... but at some point the amount of effort into supporting an ever decreasing amount of users that have JS disabled isn't going to be worth the effort.
That is the reality of the situation. People can bitch and moan, but it isn't going to change because nobody is willing to pay for the "Document first approach".
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I'm assuming your issue is with jQuery as well, or with XHR calls in general, or infiniscrolls, because none of that requires a SPA.
"Modern web" gripes in general. With SPAs in particular I've yet to see a thing where I'd be all "yeah this sure benefited from being SPA". Mostly because they usually fuck up navigation or some other thing that browsers already had. It reminds me of all-Flash sites.
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Don't you think that was enough baiting for a day?
Sure, once she stopped attacking me.
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FrostCat seems to be acting like it.
Fuck you too, buddy, in the nicest way possible. @RaceProUK is the one who freaked out when I disagreed with her, and had to have two posts' content modded away, but I'm the bad guy? Meh, I'm cool with that.
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Thank fuck you don't build web resources.
My customers love my web product, which, guess what, requires JS. But since you're in a cranky mood, I'm not even going to tell you whether it degrades gracefully or not, or provides a "you need JS to use this site properly" warning.
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Or, y'know, you could GIVE A FUCK ABOUT USERS!
There's many ways to give a fuck about users. One of the ways to give a fuck is to deliver an application written in JS over HTTP, since then you're not having to write some piece of shit that needs to be compiled for at least 5 different operating systems and deployed in the most annoying ways possible. [spoiler]Fuck the crApp Store.[/spoiler]
Some applications are also good when deployed as a series of normal HTTP pages that can be browsed as if they are a website. We have many of these, and where the application in question is principally about publishing information (i.e., it's just a front end to a database) it's arguably the best way to deliver the app of all, since it lets you leverage high-quality third-party search infrastructure. (And Bing too!)
In other words, your point was not wrong, but also was not the whole picture.
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I've found over the last 5 years that it hasn't generally taken me significantly longer to Do It Right.
In fact I can still deliver Doing It Right faster than most of my colleagues can even when they are
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I'm not cool with it because after it was clear there was some kind of a problem, you kept fucking twisting the knife like a douchebag.
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I think you've been spending too long staring into Blakey's abyss.
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after it was clear there was some kind of a problem, you kept fucking twisting the knife like a douchebag
It's hard to persuade a Christian to give up a crusade.
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I was going to mark it as a flame war but all I got was another Discobug.