Vote of No Confidence
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@codinghorror Dissent in the ranks!
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Tablets, as of the introduction of the iPad, were not "a brand new technology":
The previous tablet implementations had just suuuuucked. And even the first version of iPad kinda sucked, to be honest: 256mb ram? Seriously?
You're drawing attention away from my point, which is as good a way as any of admitting that you have no counter argument. In case you missed here's my point again:
Your analogy sucks because tablets had touchscreen interfaces from day 1. Sure the first few generations used a stylus, but so what? That's still a touchscreen. So in the end the iPad didn't really introduce anything new here.
Though I run the risk of stroking your ego, I'll even address the point you are clinging to. No, the iPad was not the first tablet device. I thought that saying "iPads/tablets in general" would make that clear, but you seem to keep missing it. Anyway, that's beside the point, as the general public the general public perceived the iPad as the first tablet. Most people didn't care, or know, about the crap that came before. To those people, the touchscreen interface was new. And you know what, it made sense because - remember, we're talking perception, not necessarily reality - it was a new technology market.
To draw a parallel to the forum world, forums have been around for a long time. The interface has been developed and works. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Does it need to be completely reinvented? No. Reinventing the basic interface for forums would be like eliminating the keyboard and mouse for a new line of desktops. Sure it can be done, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Here's what it basically comes down to, at least for me. Many developers today, apparently including the Discourse team, have fallen into the "New == Better" belief. This belief should be eliminated wherever it is found, because new is not always better.
Any resemblance between all previous forum software sucking, is, I am sure, coincidental. I have never met a single person who was willing to tell me that they liked forums. And I have talked to a lot of people about this.
If you were a market researcher, or a business analyst, that might hold some weight for me. But from everything I can tell, your a developer. Maybe a software architect. So, you telling me that you've never met anyone who likes forums means absolutely nothing to me.
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@codinghorror have you met James Limm and John Percival?
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No, the iPad was not the first tablet device. I thought that saying "iPads/tablets in general" would make that clear, but you seem to keep missing it.
I've been trying to figure out what the fuck you were talking about, because you seemed to be saying the opposite of what you thought you were saying. For reference, you said:
The iPad/tablets in general were a brand new technology.
So, you're saying here, to people who aren't inside your head when you wrote this, that iPads and tablets in general were new. This is the opposite of saying something like, "When tablets were new..."
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So, you're saying here, to people who aren't inside your head when you wrote this, that iPads and tablets in general were new. This is the opposite of saying something like, "When tablets were new..."
Not really, it just depends on the perspective you're using. From a historical, or tech savvy perspective, you just focus on the bit about tablets in general. Ignore the bit about "iPads". For these people, the earlier tablets were a new technology. From that perspective, my point still works.
From the perspective of someone who is unaware that there were tablets before the iPad - and those people do exist, I've met some - just focus on the bit about iPads. Ignore the bit about "tablets in general". To these people, iPads were a new technology. And, amazingly, my point still works from that perspective as well.
My point is, from either perspective, tablets were a new technology that needed a new form of interaction. Touch was what they needed. Forums are not a new technology. Forums do not need a new form of interaction. Would it be nice to have? For some. Will everyone want it? As experience here has shown in the past week, absolutely not. This means that @codinghorror's original analogy doesn't work.
So I initially made my point a little muddy, big deal. It was still clear that @codinghorror's analogy sucked, and that instead of refuting my argument, he decided to attack the way I worded it instead. Seems to me that he knows his analogy sucks. And the fact that you are taking the same tactic, @boomzilla, tells me you probably feel the same way.
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Not really, it just depends on the perspective you're using.
The PERSPECTIVE OF WRITTEN ENGLISH.
instead of refuting my argument, he decided to attack the way I worded it instead.
Yes, at least in part because your argument was the opposite of what you wrote.
Seems to me that he knows his analogy sucks. And the fact that you are taking the same tactic, @boomzilla, tells me you probably feel the same way.
No, I haven't applied much thought to the analogy itself, because it was fucking confusing because of what you wrote. I actively tried not to think about your argument because it seemed so incoherent and not worth the effort.
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No, I haven't applied much thought to the analogy itself, because it was fucking confusing because of what you wrote. I actively tried not to think about your argument because it seemed so incoherent and not worth the effort.
So, @codinghorror's analogy was confusing because of what I wrote? That's just plain weird. Also, weird is spelled weird. It doesn't follow that whole i-before-e rule, not even the extended version.
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I actually also like forums, forum software in general less so, but forums sure.
I like forum software. It makes forums possible.I don't work on forum software though, so there's that.
Filed under: since I can't have the scrollbar, can I at least please have the topic progress visible when I have a draft open? kthxbye
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It doesn't follow that whole i-before-e
rulemisconception, not even the extended version.FTFY
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> abarker said:
It doesn't follow that whole i-before-e
rulemisconception, not even the extended version.FTFY
I before E except after C, and whenever the hell else it doesn't work.
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I before E except after C, and whenever the hell else it doesn't work.
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So, @codinghorror's analogy was confusing because of what I wrote?
I don't know. I just know what you wrote didn't make sense. That was enough for me.
Filed Under: Pedantic dickwied
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"I before E, except after C" is a mnemonic rule
If a rule holds in less than 50% of cases, is it still a rule?
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If a rule holds in less than 50% of cases, is it still a rule?
Are we still talking about infinite scrolling?
Filed under: Geez, give it a rest.
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I don't know.
Well, if you're judging my posts out of context and get confused, then stop blaming me. Either find the context and figure it out, or fuck off.
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Well, if you're judging my posts out of context and get confused, then stop blaming me. Either find the context and figure it out, or fuck off.
You shouldn't be surprised that people have issues with what you write when you write the opposite of what you mean and that doesn't make sense. I don't see why you can't just say, "Oh, yeah, that was a bit of a brain fart when I wrote that." Instead you actually defended it. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than the typical blakeyrat move of denying or ignoring it, but it's still not very good.
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To be clear: @boomzilla isn't saying the thing you're trying to argue is wrong, just that what you're actually arguing is completely different from what you're trying to argue.
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To draw a parallel to the forum world, forums have been around for a long time. The interface has been developed and works. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Does it need to be completely reinvented? No. Reinventing the basic interface for forums would be like eliminating the keyboard and mouse for a new line of desktops. Sure it can be done, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
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Filed under: since I can't have the scrollbar, can I at least please have the topic progress visible when I have a draft open? kthxbye
Yes, I really want to get this sorted.
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Make it go away!
Filed under: spawn camper of Satan
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How to know you have failed.
That Apache Wave screenshot raises one really important question:
What did turn up on his front lawn on May 26th?
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Yeah, I don't know who 90% of these people are, because I only ever identified people by their avatars.
And since a lot of people have decided to change avatars, or just use the weird abstract icons that are the default*, I have no idea what's going on.
I realize this is coming late, but I just had a thought. I will now change my avatar at least once a month, just to keep you from getting too comfortable. Anyone else want to join in? We could make the first of the month an unofficial "Change Your Avatar" day.
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Even beter would be to swap them around. That is for sure going to confuse him.
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Feature request: At random intervals Discourse shuffles user avatars.
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function confuseMorbs() { var avatars = []; var images = []; $('img.avatar').each(function(value, index){ avatars.push($(this)); images.push($(this).attr('src')); }); while(avatars.length > 0) { var randAvatar = Math.floor(Math.random() * avatars.length); var randImage = Math.floor(Math.random() * images.length); avatars[randAvatar].attr('src', images[randImage]); avatars.splice(randAvatar, 1); images.splice(randImage, 1); } }Ok, now someone figure out how to inject it and attach it to DC's "load shit" event.
It was tested in console, works nicely for anything loaded.
Filed under: bored enough to write code, lazy enough to write anything useful
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I like it as a proof of concept, but feature request:
Generate md5 hashes of dictionary words appended to e-mail domains and pull gravatars from random people that don't even have accounts here.
Filed under: [Then send them an e-mail and see if they want to join the discussion][1]
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I'd just like to point out that Discourse somehow manages to break Firefox's "Find in Page" functionality. If this has already been mentioned, sorry, I couldn't find it.
And what the hell is up with the first post in some threads quoting a subsequent post? At least, that's what it looks like. Discourse seems to play fast and loose with time and space.
And and, is Discourse really so starved for horizontal real estate that they couldn't fit "ago" next to the relative post times?
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If this has already been mentioned, sorry, I couldn't find it.
You mean apart from the long discussions about it in two or three theads, one of which is the actual bug thread?
You couldn't find it? Feh! You didn't even look!
Which is entirely forgivable because search is a little broken or something.
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Wait, that was the joke, wasn't it? You italicized that for a reason, didn't you? I've underestimated your intelligence, haven't I?
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I have no idea what you mean by this talk of other threads. This is Discourse, there is only one thread, and it is infinite.
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This is Discourse, there is only one thread, and it is infinite.
Well, you can always start a new topic, or "Reply as new topic" in the right gutter. Topics are only as infinite as you want them to be (or make them).Note that the correlation between "chat room" and "forum" increases proportionally to the average length of your topics.
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If you use NoScript on Firefox, you'll have pagination : no more infinite scrolling.
But you can't reply to a post and the UI is even worse, it's hard to separate the posts.
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I use OSX all the time and I find the "hidden" scrollbars INSANELY irritating.
And this continuous scroll does, indeed suck. I had to create an account, which I did in another tab. I then wanted to comment - which meant I had to refresh this page. Obviously having read the thread I realised that that would not work very well - and no surprises there. Instead of returning to where I was, I was about 10 to 15 posts down the page... so I had to scroll UP.
Continuous scroll sort-of works on Tumblr etc for mobile, but I have not seen it working anywhere else.
Edit - and "quote" fail; so I guess this message is also completely out of context. Nevermind, I will probably leave the site because it is insane to foist this software on your users.
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Edit - and "quote" fail; so I guess this message is also completely out of context. Nevermind, I will probably leave the site because it is insane to foist this software on your users.
Nope, the context is preserved - click on @Nagesh's name in the upper-right and you see the post you replied to.
@scudsucker said:I had to create an account, which I did in another tab. I then wanted to comment - which meant I had to refresh this page.
Hmmm... This is a good candidate for being done automatically.
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You have a working scrollbar, it's right there at the bottom right of the topic:
WOW. You're a much bigger asshole than I thought.Congratulations.
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blakeyrat said:
apapadimoulis said:Suggesting "oh just go set up phpbbs, and do a plug-in for X" is not helping. I hate PHP, linux, and all other tech things I don't know and understand.
Right, but this one is in Linux and Ruby on Rails and is acceptable somehow? I keep reading these little nuggets, then getting confused as to how they filter out PhpBB but include Discourse.I'm friends with the Discourse guys, I believe in them, and all that... plus they also helped set this site up.
Well, that explains things much more clearly now. It doesn't matter what a horrendous, fundamentally broken piece of shit Discourse is. He's knows the developers and that's all that matters.
Yikes.
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Well, that explains things much more clearly now. It doesn't matter what a horrendous, fundamentally broken piece of shit Discourse is. He's knows the developers and that's all that matters.
Say what you will, but entertain me, what are the odds that you would be interacting with phpbb or whatever developers on your forum resulting actual fixes deployed within days?
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Amazing how you're able to post here and reply to a conversation, given that things are so broken and horrendous and disastrous and so on and so forth.
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C'mon Jeff. Sam's post is well-taken, but this is just antagonistic.
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Sarcastic? Sure. Antagonistic? Hardly.
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Antagonistic sarcasm.
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I'll go with that.
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what are the odds that you would be interacting with phpbb or whatever developers on your forum resulting actual fixes deployed within days?
The current stable version of phpBB was released in 2007 (IIRC) and has got 12 minor releases since then. It is also based on a more classical model of the Web, where clicking on a link loads a new HTML page, the vertical scrollbar scrolls the whole page, and no autorefresh nor URL swapping takes places.So yes, bugs would be fixed much slower... if we could find any.
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So yes, bugs would be fixed much slower... if we could find any.
I know a significant number of people round here who consider phpBB (and PHP itself) to be a bug in itself.
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As promised, I have changed my avatar. I apologize for being a day late, but I was camping over the weekend, so I didn't have access to change on the 1st as planned. Let the changes roll and confuse @morbiuswilters!
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You have a working scrollbar, it's right there at the bottom right of the topic:
The substitute you are offering to fill this gap is nothing more than a bastard lovechild of basic previous/next paging and a progress bar. It is nothing close to what a scrollbar represents.
Scrollbars operate on a stable locality of reference and have a grip that you can grab and move up or down a fixed amount to move up or down a corresponding amount of viewport 'pages', in a ratio that you have mentally mapped to the area of the scrollbar.
Your poor excuse of a substitute neither offers the ability for direct interaction with the scroll bar nor offers any grounds to establish the cognitive relation between the progress bar part of this bastard child and the position in the scrolled page. I'd go sofar as to say that it actively interferes with user cognition: it operates on a horizontal axis, perpendicular to the actual scrolling axis, obscuring the fact that there is any relation there to begin with.
The paging portion of this substitute doesn't even offer normal paging. Click the up or down arrows -- Up & down arrows on a horizontal bar, another cognitive mismatch. -- and you move all the way back to the first item or all the way forward to the last.
This makes that it basically fails on all fronts.
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I see your phpBB and raise you a BBS.
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@nobulate said:
I see your phpBB and raise you a BBS.
I see your BBS and raise you a MUD.
I see your MUD and raise you a physical room with people in it.
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I see your BBS and raise you a MUD.
A TDWTF MUD actually sounds interesting! Imagine a combat system with magic spells based on software WTFs and TDWTF memes.
Quietust casts "Sig Hack", confusing his opponent (-3 Intelligence) for the next 2 rounds.
Jeff casts "Infinite Scrolling" on Lorne, sending him into a blind rage (-20 Intelligence, +3 Strength, +175% chance of sudden death) for the next round.
Morbs casts "Install Eclipse" on Blakeyrat, dealing 15 points of damage and breaking his Java install (Blakey cannot use Java spells for the next 3 rounds).
Dhromed casts "Infinite Recursion" on mikeTheLiar, dealing 5 points of damage per round for the remainder of the fight.
Blakeyrat casts "Summon Lotus Notes Guy", giving him a familiar with 1 Intelligence, 0 Wisdom, and 150 hp.
Ben casts "Evil 600 Megapixel Dwarf Fortress Screenshot", reducing all nearby users' bandwidth by 75%.
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