Discourse and our reaction to it
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@Lorne_Kates said:
If it's coming straight from your horses' mouth that that's not possible, and that you will never implement it, then I think that's end of discussion.
The weird thing is, Discourse does have paging. Turn off Javascript. It would have to have a paging mode to be crawlable by Google (and not serve up 50MB pages on huge threads.)
The only problem with not using JS is you can't post.
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it seems something odd is going on.
Assume things are broken before you assume people are conspiring.
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And how is topic different from thread? Far as I can tell they're the same. Since I had 12 posts in the thread before I ran into the 3 post limit, it seems something odd is going on.
I think he said if you reply to someone new it resets.
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The weird thing is, Discourse does have paging. Turn off Javascript. It would have to have a paging mode to be crawlable by Google
I fucking know. That's what is boggling my mind. It's obvious Discourse CAN do pagination. So WTF?
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Oh. Wait. You don't have one, and you're never going to make one. So the only answer you can possibly give is, once again, "fuck off and die."
I actually think it would be pretty trivial to implement paging it as some kind of plugin or fork. Not ideal, but do-able.
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It would take months of work to re-architect an arbitary paged view into Discourse.
That doesn't surprise me. And yet, that doesn't help anything at all, does it? Lotus Notes made a lot of bad design decisions, too-- as is of about equivalent quality to this mess.
(Yet another fucking bug: the Quote button doesn't appear if I select any part of a @ username. I'm finding a new bug LITERALLY EVERY FUCKING POST I TYPE, EVERY SINGLE ONE. Are you proud of this product? You put your name on this?)
Is there anything less "random access" about a keyboard shortcut that lets you jump to an arbitrary post number at will? Because that's what's on the table.
Keyboard shortcuts are 100% undiscoverable in Discourse. (Normal human beings do not randomly start typing question marks on every site that visit, just in case there might be a help menu attached to it.) Adding a feature that is 100% undiscoverable is the same thing as not adding the feature at all.
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Bug: Reply to a post halfway up a page. Hit post. Page scrolls to bottom and loses spot on fucking infinite list
Expectation: Given the AJAX-y nature, my post should go to the end of the list, but my scroll position should stay the same so I can continue to read.
Solution: Disable infinite scrolling. Or don't scroll to the bottom after a post. Or disable infinite scrolling.nb: posting here instead of in the bugs thread, because individual threads are so 2013 forum lolwtf. Discourse can just magically thread this all together into proper grouping summaries, right?
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Ah. I must've missed that in the fucked up continuous scroll and auto update. Still, pretty stupid to enable that from the start when switching an established community to a new environment.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Bug: Reply to a post halfway up a page. Hit post. Page scrolls to bottom and loses spot on fucking infinite list
Expectation: Given the AJAX-y nature, my post should go to the end of the list, but my scroll position should stay the same so I can continue to read.
Solution: Disable infinite scrolling. Or don't scroll to the bottom after a post. Or disable infinite scrolling.nb: posting here instead of in the bugs thread, because individual threads are so 2013 forum lolwtf. Discourse can just magically thread this all together into proper grouping summaries, right?
Hit the little up arrow in the text you've quoted and it will take you back. Not ideal, but..
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Bug: Reply to a post halfway up a page. Hit post. Page scrolls to bottom and loses spot on fucking infinite list
Click up-arrow of quoted snippet.
FIXED SOLVED.
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Also, @codinghorror, you also never answered my question in the middle of this topic. I just spent nearly 5 minutes scrolling back to find it because infinite scrolling sucks.
So, Jeff, is @sam a Discourse developer? And if so, do you agree with the arrogant and dismissive tone he's taking with members of the community you're trying to get to adopt and accept your product?
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Assuming I quote the text I'm replying to, instead of just adding a comment mid-discussion.
edit: OH LOOK THERE IS NO UP ARROW MY SPOT IS LOST!
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@Lorne_Kates said:
So, Jeff, is @sam a Discourse developer?
Ya.
@Lorne_Kates said:do you agree with the arrogant and dismissive tone he's taking
what?
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Assuming I quote the text I'm replying to, instead of just adding a comment mid-discussion.
edit: OH LOOK THERE IS NO UP ARROW MY SPOT IS LOST!
A-B-C: Always Be.. uh.. Cwoting..
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Bug: CTRL-Z (undo) is straight up broken. Paste a chunk of text. Type something. Press ctrl-z. Or type something then paste text. It doesn't matter.
Expectation: undo function should be left up to the browser and user settings, not overridden. If I paste something then type, and press CTRL-Z, it should only undo the typing, not my pasting. In vice-verse, it should undo the paste and not any of my typing. Right now undo just seems to undo a random portion of user input without any reason. It is impossible to predict, and contrary to expectation.
Solution: Don't try to custom handle undo. STOP TRYING TO RE IMPLEMENT EXISTING FEATURES!
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@Lorne_Kates said:
And if so, do you agree with the arrogant and dismissive tone he's taking with members of the community you're trying to get to adopt and accept your product
Wow. Just wow.
Are you referring to the fact I am not willing to stop everything I am doing and implement paging here?
I have been listening to the feedback and being reasonably nice about stuff, suggesting improvements, despite of people calling me retarded and telling me the stuff I build is
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Ya.
what?@Lorne_Kates said:
do you agree with the arrogant and dismissive tone he's taking
Well, I would scroll back and look for exact examples (lol no one reads threads!!!), but basically any time someone comes up with a suggestion or request, @sam responds with "you're stupid, your idea is stupid, just fucking learn to use software the way I want you to you fucking moron, go eat shit and die". I'm paraphrasing, but barely. It's reply after reply of the typical "hostile developer" bullshit. And he's the one trying to sell us on the product. If he was just some random Discourse fanboi, fine. I can deal with it. But he's a developer, a champion of the product. Un-fucking-acceptable.
Again, I'd gladly go gather a collection of quotes like I would on a forum, but Disocurse isn't a forum and users don't read anything but the first and last message in a thread anyways lol.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Well, I would scroll back and look for exact examples
Please show me specifics here.
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despite of people calling me retarded and telling me the stuff I build is
To be fair, you should have expected that. These people don't even appreciate banner ads, FFS.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Well, I would scroll back and look for exact examples (lol no one reads threads!!!), but basically any time someone comes up with a suggestion or request, @sam responds with "you're stupid, your idea is stupid, just fucking learn to use software the way I want you to you fucking moron, go eat shit and die". I'm paraphrasing, but barely. It's reply after reply of the typical "hostile developer" bullshit. And he's the one trying to sell us on the product. If he was just some random Discourse fanboi, fine. I can deal with it. But he's a developer, a champion of the product. Un-fucking-acceptable.
Again, I'd gladly go gather a collection of quotes like I would on a forum, but Disocurse isn't a forum and users don't read anything but the first and last message in a thread anyways lol.
Lorne, I think you are being a tad.. strident.
Me. I think that. Morbs. The guy who threatens to de-kidney people who use ad blockers.
So maybe just try to calm down some. I don't love the software, but I don't take it as a personal affront.
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You are dismissive any time anyone questions your precious infinite scrolling. For example, Mott voices his concern:
"I think the crux is that you guys are trying to alter paradigms that don't need to be altered. I've never once in my life felt limited by forum software with paging."
You reply with:
"Technically what we are doing here is far more complex than paging, Discourse really is rainbows, nothing is stopping one of you writing a plugin that gives you godawful paging."
Translation: "We're doing way more cool things. You're stupid for wanting that crap. Why don't you go spend hours to re-implment a stupid feature your own stupid self?"
Whenever a user brings up a concern about pagination, even after posting pages and pages and multiple replies about the usefulness and REAL WORLD examples of pagination, you play willfully ignorant with crap like "yeah, why? give me a real example"
Your turn. When were you called retarded?
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I have been listening to the feedback and being reasonably nice about stuff, suggesting improvements, despite of people calling me retarded and telling me the stuff I build is
Are you... are you aware of how many bugs we've discovered here in like 48 hours? At least two dozen.
What evidence do I have, knowing nothing about you other than you write this forum software, that the stuff you build is not (turdicon)?
(Oh look another bug: the quote button ALSO doesn't pick up icons/emoji/whatever that piece of shit is. One bug per post I make, like clockwork.)
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Bug: I have set this thread to "Watched", but I don't get emails per reply
Expectation: For the software to do what it literally says it will "You will receive notifications because you are watching this topic"
Solution: Software should notify me by email.
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whatever that piece of shit is
Is it okay to call his piece of shit a piece of shit when it literally is a piece of shit?
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Is it okay to call his piece of shit a piece of shit when it literally is a piece of shit?
Well at least this forum makes it slightly easier to embed Zoidberg...
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@too_many_userna said:
there is something more "random access" about pages that is appealing than is available through the "infinite scroll" concept
Definitely. Pages = random access. Scrolling = sequential access.
@too_many_userna said:even if you start adding in things like "go to post X
This I disagree with. GOTO solves most of the random access issues. It's maybe not as good as pagination for the "I think that post was somewhere around page 4" use case (which I run into fairly often, and a lot of those I don't get the right page on the frist try, anyway), but I can live with that. It doesn't solve the maybe-slow-maybe-not AJAX back-and-forth of infinite scrolling, but that's a somewhat different issue.
Preferred solution — User-selectable option:
(I don't know how to make this look like a drop-down with Discourse's HTML sanitation, and I can't be bothered playing with it enough to figure out if it's possible, so just pretend, OK?)
Articles per page:10
Yes, I'm willing to go do something in another tab or, $deity forbid, actual work while the All (static) page loads a long topic, if I choose that option. I tend to like as much stuff as possible on a single page, but I hate the keep-adding-new-stuff-to-the-bottom-of-the-page of infiniscrolling. I hate it on Google image search, I hate it on YouTube, and I hate it on Discourse. Also, I find old-TDWTF's display of 50 posts per page a reasonable compromise between having big pages and having manageable chunks in which to find things.
20
50
100
500
All (static)
infiniscroll
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Well at least this forum makes it slightly easier to embed Zoidberg...
<img src="/uploads/default/205/9a1c4fbeab61c0ea.png" width="390" height="298">
That makes up for everything else.
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Please show me specifics here.
You want specifics of your arrogance? Ok:
Technically what we are doing here is far more complex than paging, Discourse really is rainbows, nothing is stopping one of you writing a plugin that gives you godawful paging.
We told you what we want, you said what you give is better simply because it's "far more complex", and then referred to our preferred feature as "godawful". I'd say that qualifies as an arrogant and dismissive post.
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So maybe just try to calm down some. I don't love the software, but I don't take it as a personal affront.
This is why I called infinite scrolling ideological earlier. Nobody's mind is being changed here. We're just digging deeper trenches and pretty soon we'll all be at each other's thro-- wait a minute, this was your master plan all along!
I will say this again, because for some reason morbs and I have to be the reasonable ones, while @ender curses up a storm and @Lorne_Kates sharpens his knives:
I liked CS, despite it's mind-blowing faults, because it did the basic stuff well, and had a few features that were nice when new and downright expected today. But it's clearly showing its age, and I'm all for an upgrade to something with new features.
To the people clamoring for phpBB: phpBB fucking sucks. It's hideous, it's annoying to use, every forum running on it is full of the sort of awful people that you'd cross the street to avoid. It's like the Mos Eisley Cantina of forum software: a wretched hive of scum and villainy. It offers the bare minimum, and nothing more. At that point, let's stick with CS. If we're going to change, I want to see real progress. I don't think phpBB offers that.
So, is Discourse the best way to go? I don't really know. I'm not up on all the cutting-edge forum software. But I do appreciate that they're trying to do something new. I think they're wrong on some key points, but I'm willing to be swayed.
I don't like endless scrolling. I've never seen it implemented in a way that I thought was effective or in keeping with the principle of least astonishment. Discourse is no different. It feels clunky, and buggy, and weird. But I can get around that one point if I must. If they offer good or better ways to do the major things I want to be able to do, I'm willing to give them a chance. And, though I don't think they're going to budge significantly, I appreciate that the developers are willing to engage with us.
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Well at least this forum makes it slightly easier to embed Zoidberg...
YOUR SOFTWARE'S BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Bug: CTRL-Z (undo) is straight up broken.
Duplicate of a bug (I'm too lazy to find it and link to it) over in (I think) the Genuinely Useful topic.
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I'm too lazy to find it and link to it
I thought Discourse was supposed to make crossposting and finding posts easy. I haven't found that yet.
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every forum running on it is full of the sort of awful people that you'd cross the street to avoid. It's like the Mos Eisley Cantina of forum software: a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
YES YES YES.
Although there are some "grow your own marijuana" forums I belong to which run on phpBB. Good people.
I don't like endless scrolling. I've never seen it implemented in a way that I thought was effective or in keeping with the principle of least astonishment. Discourse is no different. It feels clunky, and buggy, and weird. But I can get around that one point if I must. If they offer good or better ways to do the major things I want to be able to do, I'm willing to give them a chance. And, though I don't think they're going to budge significantly, I appreciate that the developers are willing to engage with us.
Agreed.
Also, I have a lot of time invested in the forums, as my 12,257 posts on Community Server attest. (Wait.. how many posts do I have here? I don't see a post counter in my profile..)
Anyway, my point is that I don't consider Discourse to be some horrible, personal insult. CS did some thing better, Discourse does other things better. I don't love it, but they are here engaging us and even if we're stuck with infiniscroll I think I'll be able to manage.
I mean, really, it will just become part for Forum Lore. CS fucked shit up all the time, and we just laughed about it and moved on with our lives. The point here should be the funny, funny posts, and not whether the software that runs it kind of pisses me off sometimes.
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(Wait.. how many posts do I have here? I don't see a post counter in my profile..)
Its actually there http://what.thedailywtf.com/users/morbiuswilters/activity
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Also, I have a lot of time invested in the forums, as my 12,257 posts on Community Server attest. (Wait.. how many posts do I have here? I don't see a post counter in my profile..)
I am going to start working on importing the CS posts across, but I think my script has a bug where all your posts get dropped...
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ts actually there http://what.thedailywtf.com/users/morbiuswilters/activity
POST THAT STARTS WITH AN I {takes a shot}
Why isn't post count in the user widget? Pretty standard for a forum User name <line break> post count <link break> Last active <line break> misc other shit like location?
I thought one of the "go live" goals was to make the look and feel as close to existing as possible.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Why isn't post count in the user widget?
Totally fine to add it there. User widget could do with some love.
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how many posts do I have here
(FOAD, discourse; I'm not starting a numbered list.) 235. As far as I can tell, on the left side of your profile, the All (number) includes all activity related to you: your own posts, replies to your posts, likes of your posts, etc. Posts (number) is your posts. Replies (number) is replies to your posts. Likes given/received is self-explanatory. Clicking on any of those filters the list of activity accordingly.
ETA: WTF #57,301: Right click -> open in new tab/window (if it's actually a link, not a widget, so that there is an open in new item). After many seconds of blank window and spinning icons, it loads the page I was on, not the link I right clicked.
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Its actually there http://what.thedailywtf.com/users/morbiuswilters/activity
D'oh, thanks!
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I am going to start working on importing the CS posts across, but I think my script has a bug where all your posts get dropped...
I think your house has a bug where it spontaneously catches on fire while you're tied up inside it.
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I think your house has a bug where it spontaneously catches on fire while you're tied up inside it.
There's a real possibility of that, what with all the bondage and wax play.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Your turn. When were you called retarded?
http://what.thedailywtf.com/t/vote-of-no-confidence/270/297?u=awesomerobot
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@abarker you read enough here to make it to trust level 1, that is why your username is no longer light grey, the scarlet letter of the n00bz0r. ;) so new user restrictions no longer apply to your account.
@Lorne_Kates said:
undo function should be left up to the browser and user settings, not overridden
Totally agree, we absorbed that with the editor which is open source from Stack Exchange, I want the undo/redo overrides and the toolbar buttons removed completely from our fork of the editor.I want to reiterate that we are completely open to better "jump to arbitrary post" navigation, though it will probably need to be a keyboard shortcut.
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I want to reiterate that we are completely open to better "jump to arbitrary post" navigation, though it will probably need to be a keyboard shortcut.
Just tell me where to buy my pickup truck, man.
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That shit is infuriating. Just say fuck off and die. You know you want to.
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I want to reiterate that we are completely open to better "jump to arbitrary post" navigation, though it will probably need to be a keyboard shortcut.
Other software allows jumping to a specific location by clicking on the # of # text. I think this is discoverable; it is common enough that somebody trying to find a way to do that would be reasonably likely to give it a try, especially if the current number is formatted to look like a text box. There is more than one way to handle this. In Adobe Reader, the number is in a text box that allows direct entry. In Word, it pops up a dialog.
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I truly don't, though! I like this community. Angry programmers is my bread and butter. This is my people, man. You are my people.
Bring it in. Right here.
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I see what's happening here
