Protecting the truly important stuff
-
@morbiuswilters said:
@EncoreSpod said:
signing out of the building
Man, where do you work where you have to sign out of the building? Lame.
I work at such a place. You can't leave until you beep out. It's braindead.
-
@morbiuswilters said:
It's like how one time I was hanging out with this chick I was into and I called someone we both hated a "lousy cocksucker". She did the whole "don't hate on gays thing" so in a burst of cleverness I said "I wasn't being homophobic. I was criticizing his technique when he performs oral sex on other men. Hence the 'lousy' part." She bought it.
Oh, this is like that witness in the Zimmerman case! She said Martin called Zimmerman not a creepy-ass cracker, which would be racist, and therefore bad, but a creepy ass-cracker, thus a homosexual rapist, which apparently is an OK slur.
-
@dhromed said:
@morbiuswilters said:
@EncoreSpod said:
signing out of the building
Man, where do you work where you have to sign out of the building? Lame.
I work at such a place. You can't leave until you beep out. It's braindead.
It's not a bad idea for fire safety.
You're less likely to get firefighters rocking on into a potentially fatal situation to save Karen from accounts, who seemingly hasn't made it out of the building alive, because she has in fact fucked off to a café round the corner.
It's also a reasonably fair method for clocking in and out.
-
@FrostCat said:
@morbiuswilters said:
It's like how one time I was hanging out with this chick I was into and I called someone we both hated a "lousy cocksucker". She did the whole "don't hate on gays thing" so in a burst of cleverness I said "I wasn't being homophobic. I was criticizing his technique when he performs oral sex on other men. Hence the 'lousy' part." She bought it.
Oh, this is like that witness in the Zimmerman case! She said Martin called Zimmerman not a creepy-ass cracker, which would be racist, and therefore bad, but a creepy ass-cracker, thus a homosexual rapist, which apparently is an OK slur.
TRWTF is that wandering around your neighborhood, armed, for no other reason than "there might be a crime happening", is apparently a way to spend your free time.
Zimmerman didn't even put a cape on to do it.
-
@dhromed said:
I work at such a place. You can't leave until you beep out. It's braindead.
How does that work with the fire safety? There was a similar idea at the place I work (you'd either have to use your card to open the door, or have the receptionist do it for you) years ago, but they decided against it due to fire safety rules.
-
@eViLegion said:
It's not a bad idea for fire safety.
It's a horrible fucking idea for fire safety. In fact the building I work on was just last week cited by the fire department over shit like this. The card-based maglocks they installed in the parking garage (for both entry and exit) don't automatically disengage when the emergency alarms are triggered.
If a fire alarm goes off, and everybody exits they way they should (don't grab anything, get the fuck out), you'll have a whole group of people burning the fuck to death because they keycard is back in the office behind the wall of flames. Or everyone is a second away from escaping, in a panic, and now some fuckwit has to fumble for a keycard and hope the heat, fire, smoke or general panic hasn't fucked up the maglock system in any way.
@eViLegion said:
You're less likely to get firefighters rocking on into a potentially fatal situation to save Karen from accounts, who seemingly hasn't made it out of the building alive, because she has in fact fucked off to a café round the corner.
When the firefighters arrive, they don't do a head count. They don't take attendance, and if everyone's accounted for, they just take their time. They get the fuck into the building, do a room by room sweep and look for those trapped or incapacitated. Maybe, just maybe, a department manager will know his 5 employees, only see 4 and let the fire captain know to radio in to let the dudes start calling out for Rita-- but there's no department on the planet that's going to rely on an attendance checklist (automated or not) to determine their rescue efforts.
Assuming of course the fire didn't break out in the server room and instantly destroy the information anyways.
@eViLegion said:
It's also a reasonably fair method for clocking in and out.
Close. It's a great way to put up a barrier in front of those who would cheat with their clocking. Very little effort to implement, high rate of return since it takes a modest amount of effort (and probably some co-ordination) to cheat. Also it probably is a great, cheap CYA for their insurance premiums. "Of course we're doing employee loss prevention. Where's our premiums discount?!?!"
-
@eViLegion said:
TRWTF is that wandering around your neighborhood, armed, for no other reason than "there might be a crime happening", is apparently a way to spend your free time.
It's called Neighborhood Watch. Although most people don't go armed. OTOH, he was apparently a terrible fighter, so I can understand why he would want a gun. Also, there had been several recent robberies / home invasions by young looking black men in hoodies.
-
@Lorne Kates said:
The card-based maglocks they installed in the parking garage (for both entry and exit) don't automatically disengage when the emergency alarms are triggered.
The main doors do open when the alarm is triggered, so it's ok.
You normally leave through a little side door locked with the card scanner, because reception gets out at 17:00 and then the main doors lock for the night.
-
@ender said:
@dhromed said:
I work at such a place. You can't leave until you beep out. It's braindead.
How does that work with the fire safety? There was a similar idea at the place I work (you'd either have to use your card to open the door, or have the receptionist do it for you) years ago, but they decided against it due to fire safety rules.Being locked is unpleasant. I got stuck once in a sally port. It was late, I was alone in the office but some people were working in the warehouse and some moron ran a forklift straight on a sprinkler head. All kinds of alarms went on, and I was able to get into the first door of the sally port but when I tried to get to the other one it was locked and I had no way to go back inside. I was stuck in a 6x6 chamber with grade-6 bullet proof glass for about 45 minutes. Good thing that the chamber was rigged with volumetric motion sensors and that one of the fuckers in the security office decided to take his face out of his donut box to check why the buzzer was ringing loudly.
It's been a while and to this day I sometime get the shivers when the elevator doors are slow to open.
-
@Ronald said:
I was stuck in a 6x6 chamber with grade-6 bullet proof glass for about 45 minutes.
I would have resorted to cannibalism.
-
@morbiuswilters said:
@Ronald said:
I was stuck in a 6x6 chamber with grade-6 bullet proof glass for about 45 minutes.
I would have resorted to cannibalism.
On a sadder note, Pizza the Hutt was found dead earlier today in the back seat of his stretch limo. Evidently, the notorious gangster became locked in his car and ate himself to death.
-
@morbiuswilters said:
@Ronald said:
I was stuck in a 6x6 chamber with grade-6 bullet proof glass for about 45 minutes.
I would have resorted to cannibalism.
But he was the only one ther-- oh.
Gross.
-
@eViLegion said:
TRWTF is that wandering around your neighborhood, armed, for no other reason than "there might be a crime happening", is apparently a way to spend your free time.
Zimmerman didn't even put a cape on to do it.
Anybody else watch "The Watch"? The fat kid from superbad was like a spot on double for zimmerman. Except with slightly more facial hair.
-
@eViLegion said:
@FrostCat said:
Yet another person who has no idea as to the facts. Zimmerman was concealed carrying, because he normally is concealed carrying. On his way out (I believe to the grocery store), he saw someone that was suspicious, and called the police.@morbiuswilters said:
It's like how one time I was hanging out with this chick I was into and I called someone we both hated a "lousy cocksucker". She did the whole "don't hate on gays thing" so in a burst of cleverness I said "I wasn't being homophobic. I was criticizing his technique when he performs oral sex on other men. Hence the 'lousy' part." She bought it.
Oh, this is like that witness in the Zimmerman case! She said Martin called Zimmerman not a creepy-ass cracker, which would be racist, and therefore bad, but a creepy ass-cracker, thus a homosexual rapist, which apparently is an OK slur.
TRWTF is that wandering around your neighborhood, armed, for no other reason than "there might be a crime happening", is apparently a way to spend your free time.
Zimmerman didn't even put a cape on to do it.
-
@eViLegion said:
TRWTF is that wandering around your neighborhood, armed, for no other reason than "there might be a crime happening", is apparently a way to spend your free time.
TORWTF is thinking that if you DO run into a crime happening, the criminals will wait for you to go home and get your gun.
-
@Lorne Kates said:
@eViLegion said:
It's not a bad idea for fire safety.
It's a horrible fucking idea for fire safety. In fact the building I work on was just last week cited by the fire department over shit like this. The card-based maglocks they installed in the parking garage (for both entry and exit) don't automatically disengage when the emergency alarms are triggered.
If a fire alarm goes off, and everybody exits they way they should (don't grab anything, get the fuck out), you'll have a whole group of people burning the fuck to death because they keycard is back in the office behind the wall of flames. Or everyone is a second away from escaping, in a panic, and now some fuckwit has to fumble for a keycard and hope the heat, fire, smoke or general panic hasn't fucked up the maglock system in any way.
FWIW, the one place I worked that had a similar setup had additional rules. For one thing, your badge was also a picture ID, and it was required to be on your person, above your belt, at all times. There was no leaving it back in the office. They had multiple fire drills every year and there were assigned rendezvous areas for people. Since you did have to check out, they'd know who was left behind. In a real fire the system might break down, but at least there was regularish training, so you would hope in a real emergency the training takes hold (which, of course, is the point of regular training.)
-
@FrostCat said:
FWIW, the one place I worked that had a similar setup had additional rules. For one thing, your badge was also a picture ID, and it was required to be on your person, above your belt, at all times. There was no leaving it back in the office. They had multiple fire drills every year and there were assigned rendezvous areas for people. Since you did have to check out, they'd know who was left behind. In a real fire the system might break down, but at least there was regularish training, so you would hope in a real emergency the training takes hold (which, of course, is the point of regular training.)
We have the photo ID/RFID badges as well, required to be worn in a visible place at all times unless you feel like being tackled by security guards. We have designated muster captains and muster points where we gather in case of fire, and during our fire drills the maglock doors are typically propped open.
-
@FrostCat said:
@eViLegion said:
TRWTF is that wandering around your neighborhood, armed, for no other reason than "there might be a crime happening", is apparently a way to spend your free time.
TORWTF is thinking that if you DO run into a crime happening, the criminals will wait for you to go home and get your gun.
I don't want to have another pointless gun debate, but it seems a lot of Europeans feel that it isn't "sporting" to use a gun against a criminal. The attitude is "Curl up in a fetal position and let yourself be made a victim and hope they leave something alive for the police to find."
-
@morbiuswilters said:
I don't want to have another pointless gun debate, but it seems a lot of Europeans feel that it isn't "sporting" to use a gun against a criminal. The attitude is "Curl up in a fetal position and let yourself be made a victim and hope they leave something alive for the police to find."
If it's not sporting then why do they sell rifles in the Sporting Goods section?
-
@joe.edwards said:
@morbiuswilters said:
I don't want to have another pointless gun debate, but it seems a lot of Europeans feel that it isn't "sporting" to use a gun against a criminal. The attitude is "Curl up in a fetal position and let yourself be made a victim and hope they leave something alive for the police to find."
If it's not sporting then why do they sell rifles in the Sporting Goods section?They do in Freedomland, but not in Europa.
-
@boomzilla said:
It's called Neighborhood Watch.
Actually, in Zimmerman's case, it's called neighborhood watch, without the capital letters.
[url=http://usaonwatch.org]Neighborhood Watch[/url] (with capitals) is an actual organization with training and rules such as "if you see someone suspicious, call it in to 911, do what they tell you, and don't engage with the suspicious person". When the Martin/Zimmerman incident first happened, Zimmerman was misidentified as being a member, but NW stated several times that he was not (for example: [url=http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization]http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization[/url])
So Zimmerman is a resident of the neighborhood who appointed himself to the role of "captain" of an unofficial, untrained neighborhood watching group but did not join an organization whose purpose is to provide proper training for people in that role, for their own protection and others', and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
-
@joe.edwards said:
They had multiple fire drills every year and there were assigned rendezvous areas for people.
Last year, I worked in a building where all access was controlled by electronic access cards. We had a fire alarm, and everyone went outside. When we came back, we marched up the stairs; and I miscounted the stairs. I walked into an office through a door that was held open by a well-meaning employee. I soon figured out I was in the wrong office and left. But what an opportunity -- if I'm a criminal, I can just trigger the fire alarm; then when the alarm is shut off, walk through the door with everyone else. Take a few select sheets of paper (contracts? Project plans) and walk out. No one will ever know.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
@boomzilla said:
It's called Neighborhood Watch.
Actually, in Zimmerman's case, it's called neighborhood watch, without the capital letters.
Neighborhood Watch (with capitals) is an actual organization with training and rules such as "if you see someone suspicious, call it in to 911, do what they tell you, and don't engage with the suspicious person". When the Martin/Zimmerman incident first happened, Zimmerman was misidentified as being a member, but NW stated several times that he was not (for example: http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization)
So Zimmerman is a resident of the neighborhood who appointed himself to the role of "captain" of an unofficial, untrained neighborhood watching group but did not join an organization whose purpose is to provide proper training for people in that role, for their own protection and others', and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
Nobody cares. Shut the fuck up.
-
@DrPepper said:
@joe.edwards said:
They had multiple fire drills every year and there were assigned rendezvous areas for people.
Last year, I worked in a building where all access was controlled by electronic access cards. We had a fire alarm, and everyone went outside. When we came back, we marched up the stairs; and I miscounted the stairs. I walked into an office through a door that was held open by a well-meaning employee. I soon figured out I was in the wrong office and left. But what an opportunity -- if I'm a criminal, I can just trigger the fire alarm; then when the alarm is shut off, walk through the door with everyone else. Take a few select sheets of paper (contracts? Project plans) and walk out. No one will ever know.
Plot of the next Mission Impossible movie right there.
-
@Snooder said:
@DrPepper said:
@joe.edwards said:
They had multiple fire drills every year and there were assigned rendezvous areas for people.
Last year, I worked in a building where all access was controlled by electronic access cards. We had a fire alarm, and everyone went outside. When we came back, we marched up the stairs; and I miscounted the stairs. I walked into an office through a door that was held open by a well-meaning employee. I soon figured out I was in the wrong office and left. But what an opportunity -- if I'm a criminal, I can just trigger the fire alarm; then when the alarm is shut off, walk through the door with everyone else. Take a few select sheets of paper (contracts? Project plans) and walk out. No one will ever know.
Plot of the next Mission Impossible movie right there.Are you accusing DrPepper of being a short, closeted gay man who belongs to a cult and doesn't believe in science?
-
@morbiuswilters said:
Are you accusing DrPepper of being a short, closeted gay man who belongs to a cult and doesn't believe in science?
Except for the short, closeted, gay, belongs to a cult, doesn't believe in science parts, you got me pegged.
-
@morbiuswilters said:
I don't want to have another pointless gun debate, but it seems a lot of Europeans feel that it isn't "sporting" to use a gun against a criminal. The attitude is "Curl up in a fetal position and let yourself be made a victim and hope they leave something alive for the police to find."
Except for Germans, Europeans don't even use guns during wars; they hide in their basement, snitch on their neighbors, and wait to be liberated by stand-up people just to look down on them later. Or if they are the ones starting the war, they keep using guns only until the other side decides to resist (which includes sitting on the ground and eating curry), then they give up.
So there is no point in expecting from those people that they will show the tiniest impulse of autonomy and willingness to self-defense. Did you see in the news a few months ago, six couples from Spain were robbed in their rental house in Acapulco, and the six women were raped by the thieves. I guess letting Mexicans take your iPhones and rape your women is "European chic"; I somehow doubt that the story would have been the same if the tourists had been from Alabama (or Newark).
-
@morbiuswilters said:
Nobody cares. Shut the fuck up.
Ah, I see the old Morbs is back. What a shame. The new one actually seemed to be able to converse with adults.
Now go back to the kids' table where you belong, little boy (girl? whatever the hell you are)
-
@RobFreundlich said:
@morbiuswilters said:
Nobody cares. Shut the fuck up.
Ah, I see the old Morbs is back. What a shame. The new one actually seemed to be able to converse with adults.
Now go back to the kids' table where you belong, little boy (girl? whatever the hell you are)
You're the one who is obsessing over this trivial bullshit, just because it's on the teevee. People like you are why there is no intelligent debate left in this country.
-
@morbiuswilters said:
Your the one whose obsessing over trivial bullshit, just because its on the teevee. People like yous are why they're no intelligent debaits left in the country.
People really need to know how your posts look before your English lit intern has had the chance to edit them.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
So Zimmerman is a resident of the neighborhood who appointed himself to the role of "captain" of an unofficial, untrained neighborhood watching group but did not join an organization whose purpose is to provide proper training for people in that role, for their own protection and others', and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
And he was white, racist, gay, ... [cont pg 94]. Why not bang on about how justice wasn't done, despite the fact that it clearly was, like the other people who clearly stillgive a fuckgo back to it like a dog to its vomit about something that was sorted last week.
-
@PJH said:
Why not bang on about how justice wasn't done
Do you mean that the black guy should have been hanged instead of shot? that's racist.
-
@Ronald said:
@PJH said:
Why not bang on about how justice wasn't done
Do you mean that the black guy should have been hanged instead of shot? that's racist.
I found out the hard way that calling a black stripper "well hung" can get you in trouble.
-
@Ronald said:
@PJH said:
You mean the burglar/thief and drug dealer? Does it matter?Why not bang on about how justice wasn't done
Do you mean that the black guy should have been hanged instead of shot? that's racist.
-
@Sutherlands said:
Yet another person who has no idea as to the facts. Zimmerman was concealed carrying, because he normally is concealed carrying. On his way out (I believe to the grocery store), he saw someone that was suspicious, and called the police.
Like I said. He didn't put a cape on.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
You know, everyone says that he ignored what the dispatcher said, but I'm not convinced that's what happened.
After we hear the sound of door chimes and wind, we hear Noffke [911 dispatcher] say, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says yes, and Noffke replies, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Noffke testified that, because of liability concerns, police dispatchers are trained to make suggestions to callers rather than issue commands. In any event, Zimmerman says "OK" in response to Noffke's suggestion. While defense attorney Mark O'Mara suggested that Zimmerman stopped at that point, the prosecution's theory seems to be that Zimmerman continued pursuing Martin after the call, provoking the confrontation that ended in Martin's death.
It seems that Martin had gotten back to his destination and came back to confront Zimmerman. Obviously, if he had stayed in his car this wouldn't have happened. But who could have predicted he'd chosen the wrong homophobic thug to call the cops on?
-
@PJH said:
@RobFreundlich said:
So Zimmerman is a resident of the neighborhood who appointed himself to the role of "captain" of an unofficial, untrained neighborhood watching group but did not join an organization whose purpose is to provide proper training for people in that role, for their own protection and others', and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
And he was white, racist, gay, ... [cont pg 94]. Why not bang on about how justice wasn't done, despite the fact that it clearly was, like the other people who clearly stillgive a fuckgo back to it like a dog to its vomit about something that was sorted last week.Be quiet - the grownups are having an intelligent discussion about facts, not ranting about opinions. Now go sit at the kids' table with Morbs.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
@PJH said:
@RobFreundlich said:
So Zimmerman is a resident of the neighborhood who appointed himself to the role of "captain" of an unofficial, untrained neighborhood watching group but did not join an organization whose purpose is to provide proper training for people in that role, for their own protection and others', and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
And he was white, racist, gay, ... [cont pg 94]. Why not bang on about how justice wasn't done, despite the fact that it clearly was, like the other people who clearly stillgive a fuckgo back to it like a dog to its vomit about something that was sorted last week.Be quiet - the grownups are having an intelligent discussion about facts, not ranting about opinions. Now go sit at the kids' table with Morbs.
Am I allowed in the discussion? If so, I'd like to point out that you suck.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
@PJH said:
You're not a grown up. At least you're not acting like one. And you're certainly not displaying any sign of intelligence.@RobFreundlich said:
So Zimmerman is a resident of the neighborhood who appointed himself to the role of "captain" of an unofficial, untrained neighborhood watching group but did not join an organization whose purpose is to provide proper training for people in that role, for their own protection and others', and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
And he was white, racist, gay, ... [cont pg 94]. Why not bang on about how justice wasn't done, despite the fact that it clearly was, like the other people who clearly stillgive a fuckgo back to it like a dog to its vomit about something that was sorted last week.Be quiet - the grownups are having an intelligent discussion about facts, not ranting about opinions.
-
@PJH said:
@RobFreundlich said:
You're not a grown up. At least you're not acting like one. And you're certainly not displaying any sign of intelligence.Be quiet - the grownups are having an intelligent discussion about facts, not ranting about opinions.
Well said. I'm sure he will now see the errors of his ways and start behaving himself. I think I'll go get me some popcorn because this thread is totally fascinating.
-
@boomzilla said:
@RobFreundlich said:
and who chose to disregard both the training he would have received had he joined that organization AND the directions of the 911 police dispatcher.
You know, everyone says that he ignored what the dispatcher said, but I'm not convinced that's what happened.
After we hear the sound of door chimes and wind, we hear Noffke [911 dispatcher] say, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says yes, and Noffke replies, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Noffke testified that, because of liability concerns, police dispatchers are trained to make suggestions to callers rather than issue commands. In any event, Zimmerman says "OK" in response to Noffke's suggestion. While defense attorney Mark O'Mara suggested that Zimmerman stopped at that point, the prosecution's theory seems to be that Zimmerman continued pursuing Martin after the call, provoking the confrontation that ended in Martin's death.
It seems that Martin had gotten back to his destination and came back to confront Zimmerman. Obviously, if he had stayed in his car this wouldn't have happened. But who could have predicted he'd chosen the wrong homophobic thug to call the cops on?
Listening to the 911 recording, I hear sounds of walking and wind from after he says "OK" right up until the end of the call, and there are no more door chimes that would indicate he got back in the car. That makes it clear to me that Zimmerman got out of his car and went walking around for some time, even after saying "OK" to the dispatcher. I see that as evidence that he ignored the dispatcher in spite of verbally agreeing to the suggestion.
As for Martin arriving at his destination and coming back, I don't see anything to support or dispute that in the article you quoted. What am I missing?
In any case, it looks like we agree that if Zimmerman had stayed in his car this wouldn't have happened. And that's exactly the point of my getting into what might seem to some to be pedantic dickweedery about the difference between "Neighborhood Watch" and "neighborhood watch". If he'd truly been a member of Neighborhood Watch, he'd have known to stay in his car (or to go right back to it after seeing which way Martin ran), and no matter what anyone thinks about "Stand Your Ground", guns, possible racism, possible profiling, possible homophobic thuggery, or any of the other issues that have come up during this case, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
As for Martin arriving at his destination and coming back, I don't see anything to support or dispute that in the article you quoted. What am I missing?
That's based on the testimony of Jentael, who thought he had reached his father's girlfriend's house. No one except Zimmerman can say what really happened, of course.
@RobFreundlich said:
...and no matter what anyone thinks about "Stand Your Ground", guns, possible racism, possible profiling, possible homophobic thuggery, or any of the other issues that have come up during this case, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.
Or, if he'd just been arrested instead of suspended, he'd be alive. But the Miami schools police want to make their stats look good, so they suspended him instead. Or if his mom hand't kicked him out of the house. Or if his dad hadn't parked him at his long distance girlfriend's house. This case is so full of WTF.
I'm kinda surprised that no one (that I have seen) has likened this to rape victims. You know, how people hyperventilate when someone says that women probably shouldn't go into dangerous situations. Or, how banging a guy's head into the curb invites violence.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
Listening to the 911 recording, I hear sounds of walking and wind from after he says "OK" right up until the end of the call, and there are no more door chimes that would indicate he got back in the car. That makes it clear to me that Zimmerman got out of his car and went walking around for some time, even after saying "OK" to the dispatcher. I see that as evidence that he ignored the dispatcher in spite of verbally agreeing to the suggestion.
Have you even seen where anything happened? The site of the shooting is right on the way back to his truck. And he stopped breathing heavily before he got off the call, that means he was no longer running.@RobFreundlich said:As for Martin arriving at his destination and coming back, I don't see anything to support or dispute that in the article you quoted. What am I missing?
The fact that he had FOUR MINUTES between when he lost GZ and found him again. Also the fact that he lost him in the direction of his house, meaning there was no reason for him to turn back.@RobFreundlich said:In any case, it looks like we agree that if Zimmerman had stayed in his car this wouldn't have happened. And that's exactly the point of my getting into what might seem to some to be pedantic dickweedery about the difference between "Neighborhood Watch" and "neighborhood watch". If he'd truly been a member of Neighborhood Watch, he'd have known to stay in his car (or to go right back to it after seeing which way Martin ran), and no matter what anyone thinks about "Stand Your Ground", guns, possible racism, possible profiling, possible homophobic thuggery, or any of the other issues that have come up during this case, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.
And mall cops are trained to "observe and report." That's to limit liability, not to do good in the community. And saying that Trayvon would still be alive if GZ had stayed in his truck is blaming the victim, and stupid.
-
@boomzilla said:
@RobFreundlich said:
As for Martin arriving at his destination and coming back, I don't see anything to support or dispute that in the article you quoted. What am I missing?
That's based on the testimony of Jentael, who thought he had reached his father's girlfriend's house. No one except Zimmerman can say what really happened, of course.
@RobFreundlich said:
...and no matter what anyone thinks about "Stand Your Ground", guns, possible racism, possible profiling, possible homophobic thuggery, or any of the other issues that have come up during this case, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.
Or, if he'd just been arrested instead of suspended, he'd be alive. But the Miami schools police want to make their stats look good, so they suspended him instead. Or if his mom hand't kicked him out of the house. Or if his dad hadn't parked him at his long distance girlfriend's house. This case is so full of WTF.
True on all counts.
-
@Sutherlands said:
@RobFreundlich said:
Listening to the 911 recording, I hear sounds of walking and wind from after he says "OK" right up until the end of the call, and there are no more door chimes that would indicate he got back in the car. That makes it clear to me that Zimmerman got out of his car and went walking around for some time, even after saying "OK" to the dispatcher. I see that as evidence that he ignored the dispatcher in spite of verbally agreeing to the suggestion.
Have you even seen where anything happened? The site of the shooting is right on the way back to his truck. And he stopped breathing heavily before he got off the call, that means he was no longer running.I hadn't seen that, but was looking for such a map. Thanks!
It doesn't settle anything, though. You can interpret it two ways - either Martin went home and then came back out and hunted for Zimmerman to attack him, or Zimmerman wandered around the neighborhood until he found Martin (who hadn't made it home yet), and chased him to that spot, where the fight occurred. Actually, in either case, the fight could have started elsewhere and ended up there.
@Sutherlands said:
@RobFreundlich said:
As for Martin arriving at his destination and coming back, I don't see anything to support or dispute that in the article you quoted. What am I missing?
The fact that he had FOUR MINUTES between when he lost GZ and found him again.It took Zimmerman 1:04 to get from his truck to that spot, and then another 0:12 to get to the "lost him" point, according to the map. That's a total of 1:16 for him to walk back to his truck, get in, and wait for the police. What was he doing for those four minutes you cite (or, rather, the remaining 2:44 of them)? Whether he was wandering around such that Martin could hunt him, or walking around hunting Martin is irrelevant to my main thesis: he should have gone back to his truck and waited, and an actual member of Neighborhood Watch, as opposed to a self-appointed "neighborhood watch captain", would have known to do that, and would have been sitting safely in his car when the police arrived.
As such, Zimmerman bears some large portion of the responsibility for this death. I'm not going to make any claims at all about whether Trayvon Martin does as well, because I have no actual facts (no-one does). Perhaps if I had more facts, I would feel that Martin bore some responsibility for his own death; without those facts, I simply cannot form an opinion.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
As such, Zimmerman bears some large portion of the responsibility for this death. I'm not going to make any claims at all about whether Trayvon Martin does as well, because I have no actual facts (no-one does). Perhaps if I had more facts, I would feel that Martin bore some responsibility for his own death; without those facts, I simply cannot form an opinion.
Obviously, Zimmerman is directly responsible, since he pulled the trigger. No one disputes this.
I guess you didn't follow anything closely enough to know that Zimmerman had extensive injuries that corroborated witness accounts of Martin beating the shit out of him. Or that Martin doesn't have any similar injuries. Perhaps you're open minded enough to believe that Zimmerman's injuries were self inflicted to cover up his cold blooded murder. Or you're a bot incapable of forming an opinion. You're definitely not one of blakey's fellow lizard man, because those guys have ridiculous opinions on everything.
-
@RobFreundlich said:
It took Zimmerman 1:04 to get from his truck to that spot, and then another 0:12 to get to the "lost him" point, according to the map. That's a total of 1:16 for him to walk back to his truck, get in, and wait for the police. What was he doing for those four minutes you cite (or, rather, the remaining 2:44 of them)? Whether he was wandering around such that Martin could hunt him, or walking around hunting Martin is irrelevant to my main thesis: he should have gone back to his truck and waited, and an actual member of Neighborhood Watch, as opposed to a self-appointed "neighborhood watch captain", would have known to do that, and would have been sitting safely in his car when the police arrived.
@RobFreundlich said:
As such, Zimmerman bears some large portion of the responsibility for this death. I'm not going to make any claims at all about whether Trayvon Martin does as well, because I have no actual facts (no-one does). Perhaps if I had more facts, I would feel that Martin bore some responsibility for his own death; without those facts, I simply cannot form an opinion.
Hmm... I'm not going to argue one way or the other, as I'm not familiar with the case. HOWEVER, your second paragraph does not follow from the first.
It simply is not fair to say that Person A should have been waiting in his car, therefore he is largely responsible for person B's death. It is patently obvious that doesn't follow.
Why should he have been waiting in his car? Why shouldn't he be allowed to walk around his neighborhood?
What the fuck does being in a neighborhood on foot, and being in a neighborhood in a car have to do with responsibility?
-
@boomzilla said:
@RobFreundlich said:
As such, Zimmerman bears some large portion of the responsibility for this death. I'm not going to make any claims at all about whether Trayvon Martin does as well, because I have no actual facts (no-one does). Perhaps if I had more facts, I would feel that Martin bore some responsibility for his own death; without those facts, I simply cannot form an opinion.
Obviously, Zimmerman is directly responsible, since he pulled the trigger. No one disputes this.
I guess you didn't follow anything closely enough to know that Zimmerman had extensive injuries that corroborated witness accounts of Martin beating the shit out of him. Or that Martin doesn't have any similar injuries. Perhaps you're open minded enough to believe that Zimmerman's injuries were self inflicted to cover up his cold blooded murder. Or you're a bot incapable of forming an opinion. You're definitely not one of blakey's fellow lizard man, because those guys have ridiculous opinions on everything.
No, I followed all of that, and I definitely don't think Zimmerman's injuries were self-inflicted. But I can imagine all sorts of scenarios in which Zimmerman threatened or intimidated Martin to the point where Martin lost his cool and started swinging. Or maybe Zimmerman even threw the first punch, and Martin was defending himself and got the upper hand. Without a witness to the beginning of the fight, we don't know.
I guess I misspoke when I said I don't have an opinion. I should have said that I do have an opinion but there aren't enough facts to make it (or any other one) valid, and it's not relevant to the point I'm trying to make. Nor am I interested in debating it here, because I prefer to have fact-based intelligent discussions (which you and I seem to be having).
-
@eViLegion said:
@RobFreundlich said:
It took Zimmerman 1:04 to get from his truck to that spot, and then another 0:12 to get to the "lost him" point, according to the map. That's a total of 1:16 for him to walk back to his truck, get in, and wait for the police. What was he doing for those four minutes you cite (or, rather, the remaining 2:44 of them)? Whether he was wandering around such that Martin could hunt him, or walking around hunting Martin is irrelevant to my main thesis: he should have gone back to his truck and waited, and an actual member of Neighborhood Watch, as opposed to a self-appointed "neighborhood watch captain", would have known to do that, and would have been sitting safely in his car when the police arrived.
@RobFreundlich said:
As such, Zimmerman bears some large portion of the responsibility for this death. I'm not going to make any claims at all about whether Trayvon Martin does as well, because I have no actual facts (no-one does). Perhaps if I had more facts, I would feel that Martin bore some responsibility for his own death; without those facts, I simply cannot form an opinion.
Hmm... I'm not going to argue one way or the other, as I'm not familiar with the case. HOWEVER, your second paragraph does not follow from the first.
It simply is not fair to say that Person A should have been waiting in his car, therefore he is largely responsible for person B's death. It is patently obvious that doesn't follow.
Why should he have been waiting in his car? Why shouldn't he be allowed to walk around his neighborhood?
What the fuck does being in a neighborhood on foot, and being in a neighborhood in a car have to do with responsibility?The facts of the case are that Zimmerman had seen what he called a suspicious person (Martin) walking and then running in the neighborhood, and had called the police. They'd told him they didn't need him to follow Martin (implying that he should wait in his car for his own safety), and that the police were on their way and (I'm paraphrasing now) that the police would meet him and/or contact him when they arrived.
So this wasn't just a person walking around his neighborhood. This was a person walking around his neighborhood when as far as he knew there was a dangerous person around, and that the police were on their way to deal with it. Either he was stupid and got jumped by the dangerous person and ended up shooting him (in which case he's in part responsible because he should have been smarter) or he was looking for a fight and found one (in which case he's completely responsible).
-
@RobFreundlich said:
It doesn't settle anything, though. You can interpret it two ways - either Martin went home and then came back out and hunted for Zimmerman to attack him, or Zimmerman wandered around the neighborhood until he found Martin (who hadn't made it home yet), and chased him to that spot, where the fight occurred. Actually, in either case, the fight could have started elsewhere and ended up there.
Zimmerman chased Martin TOWARDS the place he was staying. When Zimmerman lost Martin, Martin was CLOSER to his house than Zimmerman was, so Zimmerman couldn't have stopped him. Jaentel testified that she thought Martin had ARRIVED AT the house during their call. I suppose you can interpret it however you want, but there's only one story that's supported by the facts.@RobFreundlich said:
It took Zimmerman 1:04 to get from his truck to that spot, and then another 0:12 to get to the "lost him" point, according to the map. That's a total of 1:16 for him to walk back to his truck, get in, and wait for the police. What was he doing for those four minutes you cite (or, rather, the remaining 2:44 of them)?
I don't know, but check the timeline. He lost him sometime between 7:12:00 and 7:13:10. The fight starts about 7:16:00.@RobFreundlich said:Whether he was wandering around such that Martin could hunt him, or walking around hunting Martin is irrelevant to my main thesis: he should have gone back to his truck and waited, and an actual member of Neighborhood Watch, as opposed to a self-appointed "neighborhood watch captain", would have known to do that, and would have been sitting safely in his car when the police arrived.
Talking to someone about what they're doing in your neighborhood is not illegal, and should not be, and I would encourage it from anyone in my neighborhood. I'd much prefer that to someone calling the police if they don't recognize someone. The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it illegal, and doesn't make it wrong. The fact that he wasn't part of a particular organization plays no role in this.@RobFreundlich said:
As such, Zimmerman bears some large portion of the responsibility for this death. I'm not going to make any claims at all about whether Trayvon Martin does as well, because I have no actual facts (no-one does). Perhaps if I had more facts, I would feel that Martin bore some responsibility for his own death; without those facts, I simply cannot form an opinion.
You may not have facts, but a lot of other people have them. George Zimmerman was being beaten up by Trayvon Martin, having his head smashed into the ground. Even if GZ had swung first, bashing someone's head into the ground is not self-defense at that point, and would have been assault even if 1) GZ swung first and 2) TM was still alive. Even if we take the facts and let you inject whatever you want into them, there is no possible way that TM is not at least partly responsible for his own death. If we accept even one fact that is only verified by GZ (that TM saw the gun and said "You're going to die tonight"), then it becomes 100% entirely TM's fault.@RobFreundlich said:
So this wasn't just a person walking around his neighborhood. This was a person walking around his neighborhood when as far as he knew there was a dangerous person around, and that the police were on their way to deal with it. Either he was stupid and got jumped by the dangerous person and ended up shooting him (in which case he's in part responsible because he should have been smarter) or he was looking for a fight and found one (in which case he's completely responsible).
Let me rephrase that
@RobFreundlich said:
So this wasn't just a girl walking through a parking lot. This was a person walking through a deserted parking lot when there is little light and nobody nearby. Either she was stupid and got raped by the dangerous person and ended up shooting him (in which case she's part responsible because she should have been smarter) or she was looking to be raped and found a way (in which case she's completely responsible).
Yeah, that sounds very similar.
