Aviation Antipatterns Thread
-
Tire falls off United flight departing SFO, crushing several vehicles in parking lot, company says
A tire fell off a United Airlines flight taking off from SFO to Osaka, Japan Thursday morning, officials confirmed. SKY7 was over a parking lot nearby, where it appears the tire hit and damaged cars.
-
Boeing's autopilot may have briefly failed when it 'froze' mid-air, expert says
Passengers screamed as a Latam Airlines flight to Sydney 'froze' in mid-air, with people 'thrown up into the ceiling'
-
@Zerosquare said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
'froze' in mid-air ... 'thrown up into the ceiling'
Freezing in mid-air, whatever that might mean, does not seem to me like something that would throw passengers upward. If it truly froze — stopped suddenly — it would throw passengers forward, not upward. But that can't actually happen.
Now to RTFA and find out WTF they're actually talking about...
... or not, because paywall, and I'm on my phone.
-
Mr Jokat said once the aircraft landed, the pilot went to the back of the plane and appeared in a state of shock.
“I asked, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘My gauges just blanked out, I lost all of my ability to fly the plane.’”
-
Fun fact: "Latam" is Polish for "I'm flying".
-
@Zerosquare said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
Mr Jokat said once the aircraft landed, the pilot went to the back of the plane and appeared in a state of shock.
“I asked, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘My gauges just blanked out, I lost all of my ability to fly the plane.’”
Damned over-the-air updates...
-
@HardwareGeek said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
. If it truly froze — stopped suddenly —
That's how one of the passengers described it. I think it was more "froze" in the bluescreen "locked-up" sense.
In the aftermath of the mid-air scare, a pilot inspecting the cabin told passengers his instrument panel went blank briefly, before it all came back.
Nonpaywalled
'The plane just froze': 50 people injured after technical fault on flight to Auckland
More than 10 St John vehicles weare at the airport this afternoon.
'Blood streaming down his face': Latam flight drop horror; what pilot told passengers
A passenger saw people flying through the air of the cabin when the plane dropped.
-
@HardwareGeek said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
Freezing in mid-air, whatever that might mean, does not seem to me like something that would throw passengers upward
Sounds more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72
-
@Deadfast That sounds plausible, but it's not what I would understand from "freezing".
-
@HardwareGeek said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
Now to RTFA and find out WTF they're actually talking about
It's better to read this f■■■■■g article.
-
Ex-Boeing Quality Manager Found Dead After Giving Evidence Against Company
John Barnett, who worked at Boeing for more than 30 years, has been found dead in his truck days after giving evidence in a lawsuit against the 737 Max maker.
-
Also:
Hotel Keycards And Dawn Dish Soap Used In 737 Max Production As Boeing Fails 33 FAA Safety Checks
After a door panel came loose on a Boeing 737 Max aircraft in January, the company was subject to a federal safety inspection. It hasn’t gone well.
-
-
@Zerosquare said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
Ex-Boeing Quality Manager Found Dead After Giving Evidence Against Company
John Barnett, who worked at Boeing for more than 30 years, has been found dead in his truck days after giving evidence in a lawsuit against the 737 Max maker.
That's called closing the barn door after the horse has escaped.
-
@jinpa said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
@Zerosquare said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
Ex-Boeing Quality Manager Found Dead After Giving Evidence Against Company
John Barnett, who worked at Boeing for more than 30 years, has been found dead in his truck days after giving evidence in a lawsuit against the 737 Max maker.
That's called closing the barn door after the horse has escaped.
Well, his testimony wasn't completed, so now they can get the whole thing stricken from any future legal proceedings
-
@izzion IANAL, but this seems like something the prosecutors would argue against, to say the least.
-
@izzion said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
they can get the whole thing stricken
That's not how this works.
In fact, AIUI, this is one of the situations in which hearsay becomes admissable. "He told me X" is usually not admissable, at least not wrt the accuracy of X; it may be admissable wrt your own state of mind — what you believed, why you believed it, and when. But testimony about X itself must be presented by him. However, if he's not available to testify, transcripts of previous sworn statements — previous testimony in court, if any, or pretrial depositions — may be presented as if he were offering the same testimony in person. I believe that, under some circumstances, "he told me X" may be admissable wrt facts about which he never had the opportunity to testify. Note: IANAL, this is not legal advice, YMMV, etc.
-
@HardwareGeek I don't know what would happen in the case, though, where a witness gave testimony but died before the opposition had the opportunity to cross-examine.
-
@Zerosquare said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
Also:
Hotel Keycards And Dawn Dish Soap Used In 737 Max Production As Boeing Fails 33 FAA Safety Checks
After a door panel came loose on a Boeing 737 Max aircraft in January, the company was subject to a federal safety inspection. It hasn’t gone well.
Either FAA or Times are making fools of themselves here, because these two particular problems don't actually sound like problems.
Checking a seal fits with something thin, but not sharp so the seal won't get damaged, like a keycard, sounds perfectly reasonable thing to do. Unless it was done in lieu of e.g. a pressure test, but they don't say anything like that. And since a pressure test can only be done after all seals are installed, doing a quick check for each first is reasonable, and does not harm anything as long as the pressure test still gets done at the end.
And similar with using soap to make things easier to fit. That's a common thing to do, so in and off itself it doesn't sound like a problem. They'd have to explain how the residual soap can cause problems later, but they don't seem to.
-
@Bulb I think the issue is not so much the specific actions they were taking or tools they were using, but that those actions and tools weren't in the Official Documentation of what they were supposed to be doing.
I'm guessing it's the kind of "certification" where one could have a step of throwing a part across the room into the wall and bounce into a bucket to be collected for the next step, as long as that's the procedure that's written down.
-
@Bulb it depends.
Does the official documented process for fitting a door seal to a 737 Max include an approved lubricant manufactured to an agreed specification, rather than dish soap? If so then it's a compliance issue even if it does technically work without issue.
And if they're not following that particular process, what else are they not following?edit:
-
-
@loopback0 said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
@Bulb it depends.
I can see ways it can be a problem, but the article makes it sound as if it was obviously wrong, and it's not. It makes the article dishonest. It makes it sound like if using mundane tools like plastic card and soap is inappropriate when building an aircraft, but in fact they are tools a normal mechanic has good uses for.
Does the official documented process for fitting a door seal to a 737 Max include an approved lubricant manufactured to an agreed specification, rather than dish soap? If so then it's a compliance issue even if it does technically work without issue.
Yes, if. But it probably doesn't. The manual is written for trained mechanics, not Random Joe Morons, so it does not need to describe common tasks. It shouldn't, even, because then the important parts would get lost in the verbiage. It needs to specify the important parts like what type of bolts go where, what torque to apply and which need lockwire of dowel pins—and as the case of the loose door showed, it's sometimes failing that, which is the actual problem. But the mechanics can have established practice for the common tasks that is not in the manual, because how exactly they do it does not matter.
And if they're not following that particular process, what else are they not following?
Sure, but it also makes it sound like the process is poorly designed. And when processes are poorly designed, getting things done usually gets priority over following the letter of the process. Which the process design must take into account.
-
‘It’s Not Suicide’: Boeing Whistleblower Warned Friend Before Death
A family friend of Boeing whistleblower John Barnett says he warned her not to believe reports of suicide
-
-
-
Boeing: How much trouble is the company in?
The US plane giant is under pressure from regulators and airlines, and its reputation is badly damaged.
For once, Betteridge's Law does not apply.
-
@Zerosquare … because it's not a yes/no question.
-
-
@Bulb said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
@Zerosquare … because it's not a yes/no question.
Not with that attitude
-
@izzion All these flight-related puns are really dragging this thread into a graveyard spiral.
-
@Atazhaia said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
@izzion All these flight-related puns are really dragging this thread into a graveyard spiral.
Like Icarus, we often fly too close to the pun.
-
@Atazhaia If there were any flight related puns, they must have flown over my head.
Edit: ah, "attitude". Pre-flight Check.
-
And you do not even need the new-fangled 737-MAX. The old 737-800 brand will do, too:
-
@BernieTheBernie said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
And you do not even need the new-fangled 737-MAX. The old 737-800 brand will do, too:
This is probably a spotlight bias. A panel falls from a some plane, of any type, now and then, usually because maintenance didn't close it properly or because some screws rusted through. It is not particularly dangerous, since these access panels don't have a structural function. But after that door plug, which was a serious incident, and the quality control issues it revealed, any incident involving Boeing aircraft is now much more likely to make mainstream news.
-
-
United Airlines CEO Promises To Keep Passengers Safe, The Lowest Bar To Clear
United Airlines has found nearly every way for its aircraft to fall apart over the past two months
-
Delta Air Lines Plane Loses Part In Mid-Flight, Makes Emergency U-Turn
A Netherlands-bound Delta Air Lines airplane returned to Utah after losing an engine pylon panel during takeoff Sunday
Dammit Boeing!
The Airbus A330neo carrying 260 passengers and 13 crew members departed Salt Lake City for Amsterdam and had reached the Montana-North Dakota boundary before safely returning to Salt Lake City as one of the engine pylon panels had fallen off on takeoff, the Associated Press (AP) reported.
Oh, fuck.
-
@boomzilla said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
Delta Air Lines Plane Loses Part In Mid-Flight, Makes Emergency U-Turn
A Netherlands-bound Delta Air Lines airplane returned to Utah after losing an engine pylon panel during takeoff Sunday
Dammit Boeing!
The Airbus A330neo carrying 260 passengers and 13 crew members departed Salt Lake City for Amsterdam and had reached the Montana-North Dakota boundary before safely returning to Salt Lake City as one of the engine pylon panels had fallen off on takeoff, the Associated Press (AP) reported.
Oh, fuck.
@Bulb said in Aviation Antipatterns Thread:
A panel falls from a some plane, of any type, now and then
The Daily Caller could care a bit more and use an image of the correct aircraft though. The article image is a B737, not an A330.
-
So you're the sort of person who puts your carry-on on the floor under the seat in front of you. Later, you have to explain to the insurance company how your laptop got damaged during the flight. "There was a flood", you say.
Onboard flooding grounds Anchorage-bound flight
An issue with an on-board bathroom sink that left water in the aisle of an Alaska Airline jet forced the flight to turn around and go back to Hawaii early Saturday morning, according to officials.
-
Boing boing boing ...
Next desaster:
BREAKING Southwest Boeing 737 made an emergency in Denver after engine cowling detached mid-air
Southwest flight to Houston returned to Denver after engine cowling detached mid-air.
-
@BernieTheBernie another panel fell off. Not that big deal, and a maintenance issue rather than design one.
-
@Bulb so you're saying the rot has spread to all parts of the industry?
-
@boomzilla There has always been an occasional maintenance problem, but some rot does seem to be spreading there as well. And some rot seems to be spreading in ATC.
-
New Boeing whistleblower alleges serious structural flaws on 787 and 777 jets
In a new public relations setback for Boeing, a quality engineer alleged shortcuts to increase production led to potentially serious structural flaws on its 787s and 777s.
“I viewed severe misalignments when the plane came together, which was remedied by using unmeasured and unlimited amount of force to fit the misaligned holes and parts together,” Salehpour said. “I literally saw people jumping on the pieces of the airplane to get them to align.”
Jumping up and down could deform parts enough so that the holes aligned temporarily, allowing the mechanic to hit a pin with a mallet into the hole, he said.
This “can cause damage to the parts and creates risk factors for primary structures,” Salehpour added.
Boeing did not respond to the detailed allegations about the 777.
Debra Katz, another of his lawyers, at the news conference said Saleh repeatedly brought up his 787 concerns with supervisors and last month submitted a formal ethics complaint internally.
“Initially, he was just told to shut up. Then he was told he was a problem. Then he was excluded from meetings, and he was excluded from taking travel with his team, said Katz. “He was barred from speaking to structural engineers. He was barred from speaking to mathematicians and others to help him understand the data.”
“At one point, his (787) boss threatened him with physical violence,” she added. “That was documented. That actually was in writing. He turned the threat of physical violence over to HR and HR did not discipline the offending supervisor.”
-
Air Force contractor who walked into moving propeller had 'inadequate training' when killed
Stephanie Cosme died Sept. 7 when she "inadvertently walked into the parked remotely piloted aircraft’s rotating propeller" at Gray Butte Airfield.
-
@boomzilla Gray Butte Airfield sounds like the aliens are clearly not taking people seriously.
-
-
Look, there is a Boeing flying.
How can you identify it?
-
JetBlue and Southwest planes nearly collide on Washington, D.C., airport runway
A source familiar with the matter told NBC News the planes came within 1,000 feet of each other, the latest close call to unfold at a U.S. airport.
Older Boeing plane found to have missing panel after flight from California to southern Oregon
