Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.
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I know there are a few car enthusiasts on this forum with far better knowledge about cars than me. I pretty much made my decision but I'd like a second opinion on basically everything.
- I want to buy Subaru Legacy. It's an AWD sedan, it looks nice, it's fairly cheap, it has lots of nice features such as heated side mirrors or huge ass center display, and 180HP is enough for me, a casual driver. A brief look over competitors in the same segment didn't reveal any other cars that have or are close to having all those qualities. Did I miss something? Are there better choices than Legacy?
- I want to buy it new. it seems used prices aren't much lower than new, so buying second hand seems pointless. Am I making a mistake?
- I want to buy it soon. According to the internet, now is a very bad time to buy cars in general, although I couldn't find any actual data confirming that. Just how bad is the market currently? GPU cards level bad, lumber level bad, or just typical 2-5%-compared-to-last-year level bad? Is there any point to waiting?
Also, I want it blue. For a Subaru, blue Legacies are surprisingly rare in dealers' stock, it seems based on the websites. Do dealers order custom builds? Is it a good idea to ask a dealer for a custom build? Is there any room for negotiation after that? Or is it better to just order online from the manufacturer's website?
Thanks in advance for any helpful info.
Edit: Also, this car has CVT transmission. How much pain in the ass is it going to be? The internet can't seem to agree on it - it either works flawlessly or it's utter garbage.
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First, a dumb question: do you really need AWD? I ask because I thought I needed AWD, bought a Subaru for the AWD, and then I never drove anywhere that needed it. (I live close enough to my local mountains that if the roads aren't good, I can just delay the trip to another weekend when the weather is better. If you must schedule your winter outings in advance, and only change them for really nasty weather, then AWD makes more sense for you. Or if you live somewhere that has, y'know, an actual winter. I don't get snow at my elevation.)
Second, Subarus apparently have a reputation of wearing through the head gasket faster than other cars. I learned this after I bought one, of course. (Other cars will have other problem parts; this isn't a deal-killer, but replacing a head gasket is somewhat pricey.)
For my part, I'm about to buy a used car. In this market. Because my current car is worth, on a really good day, $2k, and it has $4k of repairs I've been putting off. (Power steering, A/C, and the engine is burning oil, which two different shops tell me requires re-boring the engine.) I'm going to get rid of my junker, buy a ~8-year-old car that isn't godawful, and drive it for a couple of years before getting my wife the Mom car she's been pestering me about.
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@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Edit: Also, this car has CVT transmission. How much pain in the ass is it going to be? The internet can't seem to agree on it - it either works flawlessly or it's utter garbage.
I'll put it this way: it's fine if you're not expecting it to behave like a typical transmission. If you're the kind of guy that puts the foot on the gas somewhat and keeps it there until the desired speed is attained, you'll probably have no issues. If instead you pump the accelerator like you're driving a manual, you're going to have a bad time because (natch) the transmission doesn't act like that.
It was quite funny when my mother got an SUV with CVT , and we were pushing forward and back because she was (instinctively?) trying to control shift points.
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@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I want to buy it new. it seems used prices aren't much lower than new, so buying second hand seems pointless. Am I making a mistake?
Now isn't the best example of the used car market, as issues with supply of new cars means that used cars are, in general, more expensive than they are normally..
Used prices aren't typical so don't use it as a guide for what your car might be worth in used in the future.@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Just how bad is the market currently? GPU cards level bad, lumber level bad, or just typical 2-5%-compared-to-last-year level bad? Is there any point to waiting?
Several months worth of delays on factory-ordered cars. If you're ordering a new car that needs to be built (rather than already being in stock at the dealer) then you'd better not be in a rush.
@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Edit: Also, this car has CVT transmission. How much pain in the ass is it going to be? The internet can't seem to agree on it - it either works flawlessly or it's utter garbage.
I doubt you'll get agreement here either. I think that CVTs are the worst automatic gearboxes but someone's undoubtedly going to tell me I'm wrong.
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@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
GPU cards level bad
Not quite as bad as that, but still not great; it's the availability of electronic components that is the issue.
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I should not talk about buying cars, as I already bought one this year, so clearly all is wrong with me. Just the other Japanese brand starting with ”Su”.
Although I got a brand new Suzuki Swift, on a discount as the dealer had special offer. It is however manual and with ”intelligent” 4WD, so behaves like a 2WD until it needs power to the rear wheels. Also, B-class so more of a compact car. I could get in in blue, though, as they had that in stock. Is one that looks small from the outside, but feels bigger on the inside. Not had any moment of 4WD need yet, but winter is coming and it was mainly in preparation for that.
As far as transmissions goes, I dunno. Automatic is nicely convenient, but manual is superior for the fine control of gear (which is needed for this car as the engine isn’t the strongest). Unfortunately I dunno how the cars with shit hill climbing skills have with transmissions and drivers, but some of them are slow going uphill here. And there are a lot of hills.
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@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I know there are a few car enthusiasts on this forum with far better knowledge about cars than me. I pretty much made my decision but I'd like a second opinion on basically everything.
- I want to buy Subaru Legacy. It's an AWD sedan, it looks nice, it's fairly cheap, it has lots of nice features such as heated side mirrors or huge ass center display, and 180HP is enough for me, a casual driver. A brief look over competitors in the same segment didn't reveal any other cars that have or are close to having all those qualities. Did I miss something? Are there better choices than Legacy?
Subaru is the only car brand where I did not hate the car within a week or two of purchase. I had the outback, which is basically just a raised legacy. I've had no problems at all with the subs I've owned, and I'm sort of mean to cars.
- I want to buy it new. it seems used prices aren't much lower than new, so buying second hand seems pointless. Am I making a mistake?
The second hand market is retarded, because of long delivery times so buying used cars, unless beat up econo shitboxes, is a really bad idea now. New cars are probably a less bad idea, normally it's the other way around.
All my vehicles are worth more now than two years ago. One of them has doubled in value.- I want to buy it soon. According to the internet, now is a very bad time to buy cars in general, although I couldn't find any actual data confirming that. Just how bad is the market currently? GPU cards level bad, lumber level bad, or just typical 2-5%-compared-to-last-year level bad? Is there any point to waiting?
Depends on the car, if they have it in stock, no problem. Otherwise you're going to have to wait longer than usual for a new car.
Also, I want it blue. For a Subaru, blue Legacies are surprisingly rare in dealers' stock, it seems based on the websites. Do dealers order custom builds? Is it a good idea to ask a dealer for a custom build? Is there any room for negotiation after that? Or is it better to just order online from the manufacturer's website?
If you ask for custom stuff, I suspect you will basically lose the ability to haggle in the current market.
Thanks in advance for any helpful info.
Edit: Also, this car has CVT transmission. How much pain in the ass is it going to be? The internet can't seem to agree on it - it either works flawlessly or it's utter garbage.
The first generations of CVTs were shit that broke down and were stupid expensive to fix. Last I heard, Subaru had fixed all their issues so it's mostly a matter of taste of you like driving with CVTs. Go for a test drive.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I'll put it this way: it's fine if you're not expecting it to behave like a typical transmission. If you're the kind of guy that puts the foot on the gas somewhat and keeps it there until the desired speed is attained, you'll probably have no issues. If instead you pump the accelerator like you're driving a manual, you're going to have a bad time because (natch) the transmission doesn't act like that.
I had converted from manual to automatic a couple years prior to getting my CVT, so that helped!
That said, I've owned Subaru's since 1986 and been quite happy. I do tend to trade in for a new one around 100Kmi. But then, since 2003, I'm also towing a small RV trailer.
Since I'm now at 80K, I'm starting to think about the next one. Probably go for the turbo since it was a slightly higher tow rating.
1986 GL Wagon (manual)
1990 Outback (manual)
1998 Outback (manual)
2006 Tribeca (auto)
2015 Outback (CVT)
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@PotatoEngineer said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
First, a dumb question: do you really need AWD?
Of course not. But still, it's better than not having it. It's a minor plus but combined with everything else it makes Legacy a superior choice.
Thanks everybody for help. I think I'll go forward with this plan.
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@Gąska you are absolutely correct and have selected the perfect car. Your taste in color is appalling.
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@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I know there are a few car enthusiasts on this forum with far better knowledge about cars than me. I pretty much made my decision but I'd like a second opinion on basically everything.
- I want to buy Subaru Legacy. It's an AWD sedan, it looks nice, it's fairly cheap, it has lots of nice features such as heated side mirrors or huge ass center display, and 180HP is enough for me, a casual driver. A brief look over competitors in the same segment didn't reveal any other cars that have or are close to having all those qualities. Did I miss something? Are there better choices than Legacy?
Sedans in the US aren't normally AWD, but I imagine you get shitty winters in your part of the country, so it will probably help you.
Subaru isn't really a popular brand among the car enthusiast community. That said, they have a loyal following of Subaru fans who aren't traditional car enthusiasts, so they must be doing something right.
- I want to buy it new. it seems used prices aren't much lower than new, so buying second hand seems pointless. Am I making a mistake?
- I want to buy it soon. According to the internet, now is a very bad time to buy cars in general, although I couldn't find any actual data confirming that. Just how bad is the market currently? GPU cards level bad, lumber level bad, or just typical 2-5%-compared-to-last-year level bad? Is there any point to waiting?
The new car market is non-great because of shortages related to the lockdowns. The used car market is non-great because sellers of used cars know that the new car market is non-great. My guess is that things will level out in the next year or so. If you can wait that long, it might be worth it.
Also, AIUI, Subarus hold their value better than their competitors so are more expensive to buy used.
Also, I want it blue. For a Subaru, blue Legacies are surprisingly rare in dealers' stock, it seems based on the websites. Do dealers order custom builds? Is it a good idea to ask a dealer for a custom build? Is there any room for negotiation after that? Or is it better to just order online from the manufacturer's website?
You probably can't special order a Subaru Legacy. If you get the dealer to "special order" a Legacy, what actually happens is that they look for a blue Legacy at some other local dealer's lot, and bring that one to you. "Order online from the manufacturer's website" is basically the same thing. The website scans the inventory of your local dealers and tries to find you something that meets your specifications.
There are cars you can actually special order from the factory, but they're usually sports cars and the like.
There's usually very little haggling over the price of a special order/"special order" car. The dealer's incentive structure from the manufacturer is based around selling cars that are already in their own inventory. Selling a car that they have to go buy from some other dealer helps the other dealer's inventory, not their own. So they're less willing to cut the markup they charge you if you buy a car that's not in their inventory.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Also, I want it blue. For a Subaru, blue Legacies are surprisingly rare in dealers' stock, it seems based on the websites. Do dealers order custom builds? Is it a good idea to ask a dealer for a custom build? Is there any room for negotiation after that? Or is it better to just order online from the manufacturer's website?
You probably can't special order a Subaru Legacy. If you get the dealer to "special order" a Legacy, what actually happens is that they look for a blue Legacy at some other local dealer's lot, and bring that one to you. "Order online from the manufacturer's website" is basically the same thing. The website scans the inventory of your local dealers and tries to find you something that meets your specifications.
Didn't know that. Good to know. So basically, no point in doing that unless I can't find anything in ~200 mile radius?
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Subaru isn't really a popular brand among the car enthusiast community.
That sounds like a good thing.
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@topspin said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Subaru isn't really a popular brand among the car enthusiast community.
That sounds like a good thing.
Eh. I don't see it mattering much either way.
The reason for the disconnect is how the company races the cars. The most popular Subaru among Subaru enthusiasts is the WRX, which stands for World Rally Cross, the name of a mostly-offroad racing series that Subaru fields teams in.
Toyota and Honda, on the other hand, field teams in a wider variety of motorsports. They also field teams in more prominent motorsports than WRX. (In the US, Toyota is one of three manufacturers in NASCAR. Honda is one of two in IndyCar.)
As a result, the kind of people that are enthusiasts about Honda and Toyota are impressed by the same kinds of things - stuff that will improve performance on paved tracks. Subaru enthusiasts are impressed by things that will improve performance off-road. So there's not a lot of overlap between the two groups.
Since @Gąska is unlikely to drive his non-tuned sedan either off-road or on a track, the kinds of things that matter to either set of enthusiasts won't be present on his car.
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@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Also, I want it blue. For a Subaru, blue Legacies are surprisingly rare in dealers' stock, it seems based on the websites. Do dealers order custom builds? Is it a good idea to ask a dealer for a custom build? Is there any room for negotiation after that? Or is it better to just order online from the manufacturer's website?
You probably can't special order a Subaru Legacy. If you get the dealer to "special order" a Legacy, what actually happens is that they look for a blue Legacy at some other local dealer's lot, and bring that one to you. "Order online from the manufacturer's website" is basically the same thing. The website scans the inventory of your local dealers and tries to find you something that meets your specifications.
Didn't know that. Good to know. So basically, no point in doing that unless I can't find anything in ~200 mile radius?
Yeah, pretty much.
Usually, if they can't find the right car, they'll ask the factory for one in the next shipment, whenever the next shipment is. Depending on how unusual the request is, the factory reserves the right to decline it. (If a certain combination of options is unpopular, and they have to change the production line to include all those options in the same car, they probably won't.) That's going to mean a decent delay, and you probably won't be able to haggle the price down.
Also, Subaru in particular is historically unwilling to do custom orders from the factory because most Subarus made for the US market have been made in Japan.
They make the Legacy in Indiana, though. Not sure if that changes their math.
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@Atazhaia said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
blue... small from the outside ... bigger on the inside
You bought a TARDIS?
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@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I want to buy it soon. According to the internet, now is a very bad time to buy cars in general, although I couldn't find any actual data confirming that. Just how bad is the market currently? GPU cards level bad, lumber level bad, or just typical 2-5%-compared-to-last-year level bad? Is there any point to waiting?
Prices are not GPU-level bad, but definitely higher than normal. This is almost entirely a supply side issue as sales are down because of
.A hell of a lot of this is because of the shortage of chips to run the various control units in the vehicles. Last I heard GM had a few hundred thousand cars sitting in lots all over the USA that they cannot get PCUs for. They install one at the factory, run the car through all of its post manufacturing steps, park it in a lot and pull the PCU to install in the next car coming down the line. If/when this issue gets resolved there will be a glut of new cars entering the market. If/when that happens I would expect prices to drop sharply and steep purchase incentives to come out.
Also, it is not just silicon shortages. As I have mentioned before I personally know a guy who owns quite a few new car dealerships. They have received directives from the manufacturers to take inventory of their parts and then had to ship a hell of a lot of them back to the factories so that they can be used to build new cars. The whole thing is a gigantic clusterfuck.
@Gąska said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Also, I want it blue. For a Subaru, blue Legacies are surprisingly rare in dealers' stock, it seems based on the websites. Do dealers order custom builds? Is it a good idea to ask a dealer for a custom build? Is there any room for negotiation after that? Or is it better to just order online from the manufacturer's website?
You can order custom. Dealers hate to do it, and especially for vanilla vehicles. Right now the lead time would be significant and you would have zero room for negotiation. I would not be surprised if they charged a premium for it. I also would not be at all surprised if you had to pay upfront or place a very significant deposit. If you are financing it, it may be a no-go. Maybe they might have a financing option that could work.
Your best bet would be to go talk to the dealer. If they can find what you want they can order a transfer from another dealer. But with supplies being so low that probably is not an option. In a normal market it is no biggie. Put down a $1,000 deposit and wait a couple of weeks. But if the stock isn't there, and if the dealer can sell the car nearly instantly when it hits the lot, there won't be anything to transfer.
Good luck.
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that no one took the "tell me what's wrong with me" as the independent clause that it is.
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@Carnage said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
If you ask for custom stuff, I suspect you will basically lose the ability to haggle in the current market.
Not just the current market.
Haggling hinges on being willing to walk away from the deal. If the dealer knows that you are set on buying one specific car you don't have room for negotiation. Generally speaking, if you are ordering, you will probably pay sticker price. Maybe more.
Custom ordering a car like a vanilla Subaru is not really something that is done. It is something usually done for sports cars, larger trucks, luxury cars, stuff like that. For example, if you custom order a Corvette, you're going to pay sticker or more than sticker, depending on how limited edition it is.
But, here's a little tip for everyone: If you want to gain the upper hand in negotiation, ask to special order something that may not be available on a quick dealer transfer but have in mind a vehicle on the lot that you would "settle for". Dealers don't like doing dealer transfers, and hate special orders even more. You just flipped the tables. Now you went from paying sticker or more for a vehicle to them having to sell you a car that "you don't want". They want the deal done now. If you walk out the door, even if you pay a deposit for a special order, the deal has a high likelihood of falling through and then they are stuck with a special order vehicle that may not sell well to others. They will do everything they can to sell something in inventory.
"I really had my heart set on a blue Legacy with the 
package."
"We could do that, it will take X months to get here and we would require an eleventy billion dollar non-refundable deposit. But hey, I have this Legacy over here with more options that I could cut a hell of a deal on and throw in blah blah blah blah."It probably would not work in this market, but would work in a "normal" one.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Usually, if they can't find the right car, they'll ask the factory for one in the next shipment, whenever the next shipment is. Depending on how unusual the request is, the factory reserves the right to decline it. (If a certain combination of options is unpopular, and they have to change the production line to include all those options in the same car, they probably won't.)
TIL, I've never heard of that, maybe because I never really cared about it, or thought that car production chains were set up to allow for this kind of variation (for most options, it doesn't require a fully different build, just add a sensor or swap one plastic piece for a leather one...). Every time someone I knew bought a new car, they were able to order whatever combination of options they liked and the dealer never had any issues or said there might be. Maybe this is because they always ever picked the common (or easy to add) options (and this might be the salesman doing a good job...), although on my last car I picked a set of options that probably was fairly uncommon (given that I couldn't see any single used one with a set close to it!) and I don't think that caused any problem. Though on second thought I ended up getting a car with one more significant option (AWD!) that I hadn't asked for, so I don't know...
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Subaru isn't really a popular brand among the car enthusiast community.
They have their own community of rabid fans that think Subaru is the greatest car ever and nothing else can ever compare. Plus, WRX, BRZ and STI.
They really should have chosed another initialism for their flagship performance cars. STI has some connotations in the USA. Like the Focus ST has in the UK.
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
That said, they have a loyal following of Subaru fans who aren't traditional car enthusiasts, so they must be doing something right.
If you mean lesbians, just say lesbians.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Also, Subaru in particular is historically unwilling to do custom orders from the factory because most Subarus made for the US market have been made in Japan.
They make the Legacy in Indiana, though. Not sure if that changes their math.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_of_Indiana_Automotive,_Inc.
Subaru of Indiana Automotive, Inc. (SIA) is an automobile assembly plant in Lafayette, Indiana, which began as Subaru-Isuzu Automotive, Inc., a joint venture between Subaru Corporation and Isuzu Motors Ltd.[2] Today, the plant is a wholly owned subsidiary of Subaru Corporation which produces the Ascent, Impreza, Legacy and Outback models. As Subaru's only manufacturing facility outside of Asia, SIA produces about half of all Subaru vehicles sold in North America.
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@error said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
that no one took the "tell me what's wrong with me" as the independent clause that it is.If this had been posted in the garage I would have had so much fun. But no. He had to ruin my good time.
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@remi said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
TIL, I've never heard of that, maybe because I never really cared about it, or thought that car production chains were set up to allow for this kind of variation (for most options, it doesn't a fully different build, just add a sensor or swap one plastic piece for a leather one...). Every time someone I knew bought a new car, they were able to order whatever combination of options they liked and the dealer never had any issues or said there might be. Maybe this is because they always ever picked the common (or easy to add) options (and this might be the salesman doing a good job...), although on my last car I picked a set of options that probably was fairly uncommon (given that I couldn't see any single used one with a set close to it!) and I don't think that caused any problem. Though on second thought I ended up getting a car with one more significant option (AWD!) that I hadn't asked for, so I don't know...
It is both, depending on what you want.
First step is searching dealer inventory for a transfer.
Well, the first-first step is trying to sell you something in inventory..
Second step is some variation on first-first and first, where they see what they can do with existing cars. Let's say that they have the color and trim level that you want and all that, but they're missing an option or two. Like, you want some upgraded nav and entertainment system. Well, that is an easy swap. They will just pull it in the garage and do that.
But if you are outside of the realm of regional inventory and/or color combinations, then they can special order. This is almost unheard of for vanilla consumer cars.
One "special order" thing I used to do all the time was in ordering work trucks. We always wanted a very specific optioning that at the time was not really available "off the rack". We wanted carpet delete (because muddy boots), leather seats (because vinyl seats are not usually comfortable, don't wear well and they have shitty storage options because of a lack of center console and such), but most of the rest of the options.
Well, at the time "work trucks" and especially cab and chassis like we would order came with nothing much more than power windows and locks and a/c. So when we would purchase another work truck they would take the cab and chassis into the garage and swap out the seats, upgrade the stereo, swap out the HVAC controls for climate control, etc. I remember one time we bought a truck and they took a cab and chassis and an upgraded model into the garage and started swapping parts between them and then ordered replacement parts for the other truck.
There is a very small market segment of people that want F-450 through F-(whatever is largest at the time) trucks outfitted with luxury options. I believe now you can order what is basically a King Ranch in the commercial trucks straight from the factory, but there used to be a huge premium on them because third-party outfitters would order them and then upfit them to luxury spec.
Bottom line is that you can get whatever you want, as long as you are willing to pay for it.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
This is almost unheard of for vanilla consumer cars.
I don't know, around here everyone always implies that this is what happens all the time -- which might just be the dealers not putting too much spotlight on their internal workings to not frighten people (it sounds more luxurious if they tell us that our car will be "custom made"!), maybe.
But OTOH since there is always a 2-3 months delay (or more) if you don't buy something that they have in stock (which might be at another dealer, but if so they'll tell you straightaway), it doesn't sound like they would just do a simple neighbour search + replace a couple of options, that wouldn't take them that long.
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@remi As I understand (and I've also played around in configurator tools occasionally) cars here generally come in feature levels. While you can order a new car with some specific features from a higher feature level, if you want it at feature level 3 but with these two specific features from level 4, it may be cheaper to just get it at level 4 instead.
Some things, like colour, tend to be independent from that and others, like benzine/diesel or manual/automatic, may have their own feature tracks.
And then there's things which can be (or always are) done as mods post-factory.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
It is both, depending on what you want.
First step is searching dealer inventory for a transfer.
Well, the first-first step is trying to sell you something in inventory..
Second step is some variation on first-first and first, where they see what they can do with existing cars. Let's say that they have the color and trim level that you want and all that, but they're missing an option or two. Like, you want some upgraded nav and entertainment system. Well, that is an easy swap. They will just pull it in the garage and do that.
But if you are outside of the realm of regional inventory and/or color combinations, then they can special order. This is almost unheard of for vanilla consumer cars.I could see this being different between EU and US, either culturally, or practically. It seems to me a lot of your argument relies on distance to factory and transport costs which are not as significant when you live in Europe, the car you want is built in Europe, and Europe is way smaller than the US is.
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@PleegWat said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@remi As I understand (and I've also played around in configurator tools occasionally) cars here generally come in feature levels. While you can order a new car with some specific features from a higher feature level, if you want it at feature level 3 but with these two specific features from level 4, it may be cheaper to just get it at level 4 instead.
That's obviously a way for the manufacturers to try and steer you towards "standard" sets of options (and usually, as with any kind of bundles, it contains a couple of options that you'd never have paid for otherwise but which presence allows them to inflate the price, or justify it). Sometimes the options that you can get with a given trim level (in addition to those that you automatically get) is limited, which again I assume is both a way to standardise manufacturing ("only cars with options X and Y (=trim level 4) can have option Z") and push you towards higher trim levels ("if you want Z, you must take trim level 4"). It depends on manufacturers and models and what-not, but sometimes you can pick quite a few options from the higher trim level before getting to the same price.
But that's not what I was talking about. Usually most people end up picking one or two random small options on top of whatever trim level they chose. Sometimes it's really tiny stuff that can probably be added easily, sometimes... not.
Also, while I agree with your other post about it probably being a US/EU difference, I disagree that "Europe is way smaller than the US is", overall size is pretty similar. And most cars probably aren't manufactured in your country anyway (or if they are, it's probably the only factory in the whole of Europe that does this car). But what makes transfers much harder in Europe is because it's still different countries, so it's unlikely that there is any sort of standardised dealership network across countries. Even inside one country I'm not sure how easy it is to exchange stuff (I'm not sure what the exact legal status of dealers is and it may depend on the brand as well, but they certainly look like totally different businesses). But across borders... it's probably more hassle than it's worth.
<
> Also we've managed to get rid of the Brits but there are still a couple of weirdos who drive on the wrong side of the road which means we still need special cars for, erm, special people </ >
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@remi said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
But across borders... it's probably more hassle than it's worth it.
I'd completely forgot that. NL actually has a pretty high purchase tax on cars.
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@error said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
that no one took the "tell me what's wrong with me" as the independent clause that it is.Well, appalling taste in color is part of being Polish...
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
If this had been posted in the garage I would have had so much fun. But no.
What no? Thread rules. Technically you have to.
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@PleegWat said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
. It seems to me a lot of your argument relies on distance to factory and transport costs which are not as significant when you live in Europe, the car you want is built in Europe, and Europe is way smaller than the US is.
Fair enough. But it seems that most of it comes about from other reasons.
Here in the USA dealers don't really buy the vehicles until they are sold. It is more like a lease arrangement. So they have incentive to sell the cars that are on the lot and not special order anything. If they special order a car instead of selling you one on the lot then they have to pay the holding costs on the car they did not sell.
Plus, and I keep bringing this up, if you do not finalize the purchase that day there is a high likelihood that the deal will fall through. I have actually had this exact conversation with my dealer friend. Lots of people have come in over the years wanting some specific configuration. They will steer them towards inventory for all the other reasons mentioned, but also because even if they have them put down a deposit the deal will fall through more times than not.
Let's say the vehicle is $35K. If they ask for 10% down, $3,500, and ask the customer to wait even a month for delivery, most will balk. They likely won't even have that much money to put down. Most vehicles are purchased in the USA with zero down payment. You would not fucking believe how many roll negative equity into the new car loan.
If they ask for a lesser amount, like $500, that the customer might agree to, they will more times than not walk away before delivery. Pre-Buyer's Remorese or something? Lots of people agree to buy cars right now because they have the initial cash outlay right now. A month or three down the line when it comes time to pay up the rest to finalize the deal they have to walk away from the $500 deposit.
People are fucking retarded when it comes to money and purchases.
As I have mentioned before, the exception is higher dollar, special purpose or collector cars. If you want a Corvette or Camaro in a special limited production option package then special orders are not that uncommon. If you want to special order a Corvette you can even arrange to pick it up at the Corvette Museum (option R8C):
https://www.corvettemuseum.org/visit/delivery-programs/r8c-museum-delivery/
Are you ordering a Z06 or ZR1 and want to help assemble the engine? No worries, they have you covered.
https://www.corvettemuseum.org/visit/delivery-programs/engine-build/
Well, once
has passed anyway.If you want special options on work vehicles or the like, you can get literally whatever you want built just for you. That is actually extremely common.
But vanilla car special orders, it will almost certainly have to be done through a dealer transfer of the closest thing they can find (while leading you to get what they have in stock, "Do you really need option X? I can cut you a good deal on a car without it!") or adding/deleting options at the dealer from whatever they can find close to your ideal vehicle.
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@remi said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Also, while I agree with your other post about it probably being a US/EU difference, I disagree that "Europe is way smaller than the US is", overall size is pretty similar.
I mean, sure, if you count all the water and stuff.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@remi said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Also, while I agree with your other post about it probably being a US/EU difference, I disagree that "Europe is way smaller than the US is", overall size is pretty similar.
I mean, sure, if you count all the water and stuff.
Counting the Balkans is also contentious.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
walk away before delivery
I'm not sure you can just do that here since you'll almost certainly have signed a purchase contract.
Of course, as a consumer in the EU you can cancel such a contract in the first two weeks without consequences (and your down payment back) but you can't wait 2 months for delivery then say you don't want it any more without any consequences.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@error said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
that no one took the "tell me what's wrong with me" as the independent clause that it is.If this had been posted in the garage I would have had so much fun. But no. He had to ruin my good time.
The
Reply as Topicmenu item is free.
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@PleegWat said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I'm not sure you can just do that here since you'll almost certainly have signed a purchase contract.
Yeah, but a contract is only worth what you can collect on it if they break it minus the trouble it would take to collect. Sadly, it just isn't worth it most of the time.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
If they ask for a lesser amount, like $500, that the customer might agree to, they will more times than not walk away before delivery. Pre-Buyer's Remorese or something? Lots of people agree to buy cars right now because they have the initial cash outlay right now. A month or three down the line when it comes time to pay up the rest to finalize the deal they have to walk away from the $500 deposit.
People are fucking retarded when it comes to money and purchases.
QFT. Not that I'm great, but I've had friends who got new cars all the time. And were constantly complaining about being short on money.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@PleegWat said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I'm not sure you can just do that here since you'll almost certainly have signed a purchase contract.
Yeah, but a contract is only worth what you can collect on it if they break it minus the trouble it would take to collect. Sadly, it just isn't worth it most of the time.
Not sure what would happen here in that case, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can get you a BKR registration. Which may be similar to affecting your credit score, except I know that works completely different between US and NL.
In the Dutch system, everyone has good credit by default, until they show the contrary. Occasionally you hear a story about someone who failed to pay their cell phone bill a few times during their teens, causing a payment conflict which gets registered at the BKR. Then because of that they cannot get a mortgage or rent a house ten years later.
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@boomzilla said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
QFT. Not that I'm great, but I've had friends who got new cars all the time. And were constantly complaining about being short on money.
I'm no billionaire, but we are doing alright. I once had a client's employee say to me upon discovering that I drive an older vehicle and live in a modest home:
"If I had your kind of money I would get a new car every year and buy myself a big house in (snooty part of town)"
"Yeah? If I did that I wouldn't have my kind of money either."Probably a bit dickish but I was trying to make a point. Also, I don't think he got the point I was trying to make.
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@PleegWat said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
In the Dutch system, everyone has good credit by default, until they show the contrary. Occasionally you hear a story about someone who failed to pay their cell phone bill a few times during their teens, causing a payment conflict which gets registered at the BKR. Then because of that they cannot get a mortgage or rent a house ten years later.
If that is how it works then I am hard pressed to decide which implementation is dumber.
In theory our credit scores should start out neutral. In implementation.....not so much. In reality having no credit is seen as more of a risk than having bad credit. In addition, with the way our bankruptcy system works a person who recently declared bankruptcy is one of the most bankable individuals because you know that you have 8 years to pester them and make their lives hell before they could do it again.
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@boomzilla said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
The Reply as Topic menu item is free.
It is? I am gonna figure out a way to sink all my costs onto that, then.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@PleegWat said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I'm not sure you can just do that here since you'll almost certainly have signed a purchase contract.
Yeah, but a contract is only worth what you can collect on it if they break it minus the trouble it would take to collect. Sadly, it just isn't worth it most of the time.
From my direct family with a @Gąska great choice :) ">dealership of asian cars here in NL I haven't heard about customers not being able to pay, or trying to get out of their contract agreement with any regular frequency. Downpayments are also not required. Still there is a push (of course) to sell the car that is in stock (best for the discount you get from the importer company) or from stock from other dealerships or the importer company, before the build-to-order is done (but that mainly because money now is better than the same money in 3 months).
The few times I got to order myself a new (lease) car I just picked the colors and options I liked. And waited 3 months for the assembly line to build according to those specs. No questions were asked, nor any push/suggestion to choose an in-stock model, although that may be a different between serving customers that pay with their own money vs customers that pay with their employers money...
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@Polygeekery I'm really not sure if it compares at all, since I have no direct experience with the Dutch system let alone the US one. But it is common here for your first mortgage to be your first debt of any kind (remember people don't commonly use credit cards here). You do have to prove you have an income to pay the mortgage with.
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@Atazhaia said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I could get in in blue, though, as they had that in stock. Is one that looks small from the outside, but feels bigger on the inside.
You're getting a tardis?
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@Carnage said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
If you ask for custom stuff, I suspect you will basically lose the ability to haggle in the current market.
Not just the current market.
Haggling hinges on being willing to walk away from the deal. If the dealer knows that you are set on buying one specific car you don't have room for negotiation. Generally speaking, if you are ordering, you will probably pay sticker price. Maybe more.
Custom ordering a car like a vanilla Subaru is not really something that is done. It is something usually done for sports cars, larger trucks, luxury cars, stuff like that. For example, if you custom order a Corvette, you're going to pay sticker or more than sticker, depending on how limited edition it is.
But, here's a little tip for everyone: If you want to gain the upper hand in negotiation, ask to special order something that may not be available on a quick dealer transfer but have in mind a vehicle on the lot that you would "settle for". Dealers don't like doing dealer transfers, and hate special orders even more. You just flipped the tables. Now you went from paying sticker or more for a vehicle to them having to sell you a car that "you don't want". They want the deal done now. If you walk out the door, even if you pay a deposit for a special order, the deal has a high likelihood of falling through and then they are stuck with a special order vehicle that may not sell well to others. They will do everything they can to sell something in inventory.
"I really had my heart set on a blue Legacy with the package."
"We could do that, it will take X months to get here and we would require an eleventy billion dollar non-refundable deposit. But hey, I have this Legacy over here with more options that I could cut a hell of a deal on and throw in blah blah blah blah."It probably would not work in this market, but would work in a "normal" one.
Yeah, it's definitely an uphill struggle to haggle on special orders, but worth a try anyway. And if it doesn't work, you can always use the fail like you suggest for haggling on something available.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
@boomzilla said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
QFT. Not that I'm great, but I've had friends who got new cars all the time. And were constantly complaining about being short on money.
I'm no billionaire, but we are doing alright. I once had a client's employee say to me upon discovering that I drive an older vehicle and live in a modest home:
"If I had your kind of money I would get a new car every year and buy myself a big house in (snooty part of town)"
"Yeah? If I did that I wouldn't have my kind of money either."Probably a bit dickish but I was trying to make a point. Also, I don't think he got the point I was trying to make.
If you use up all financial space for mortgages and loans, you can't buy toys whenever the fuck you happen upon one, so it seems a bit silly to do. I like buying toys whenever the fuck I want.
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@Carnage said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
I like buying toys whenever the fuck I want.
Kids are gonna suck for you.
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@Polygeekery said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
Let's say that they have the color and trim level that you want and all that, but they're missing an option or two. Like, you want some upgraded nav and entertainment system. Well, that is an easy swap. They will just pull it in the garage and do that.
BTDT. 20 years ago, when we bought the minivan I'm still driving, we wanted the base trim in a particular color, but also wanted backup sensors (not standard at the time), in-car entertainment system (which 20 years ago meant VHS tape player) for road trips with the kids (which my wife rarely let them use, insisting on naps instead), and I think one other safety-related feature that I don't remember. The dealership couldn't find anything with those features, so they installed aftermarket backup sensors (which failed fairly quickly — 2-3 years, I think) and aftermarket entertainment system (that cost 2x what a factory-installed system would have cost).
The previous car, we'd done a dealer transfer for a fairly generic sedan in the color we wanted.
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@HardwareGeek said in Buying a car, tell me what's wrong with me.:
in-car entertainment system (which 20 years ago meant VHS tape player)
Panasonic released a portable DVD player in '98.
