Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition
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@dkf said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I don't know how close you can look to a real police officer without that itself being an offense
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@Carnage said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
The police will not like you though.
Good point, so let me amend that:
I don't know how close you can look to a real police officer so that other people watch out for you but police doesn't, but it certainly looks like it would be a very good strategy!
(I like @dkf's hi-viz vests!)
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I'd rather piss off people and be noticed, than being killed by a happy driver. In a night city environment, there are far too many continuous lights (from cars, shops, traffic lights, reflections in water puddles...) that a driver is IMO much more likely to not see at all one more red dot. OTOH, a flashing light is more likely to attract their attention.
Have you ever really looked around while driving a car at night? A flasher doesn't make you any more visible. It just makes it harder to figure out your position and movement vector.
Also, a red dot clearly moving against the background is very noticeable just by itself. The human brain is constantly looking for patterns.
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@acrow Have you ever driven a car at night in a city, especially with somewhat busy traffic and rain? (no, a farm in the middle of the woods in Finland doesn't count as "a city"
)A lamp isn't "a red dot clearly moving against the background", it's a red dot not very clearly at all moving in the middle of many other red dots, some brighter some not. It is indeed not very noticeable just by itself, because the human brain, being indeed constantly looking for patterns, will be very quick to associate it to one of the other many similar lights that are around and dismiss it. Making it flash doesn't make it perfectly visible (as my own experience shows), but it certainly makes it more visible.
Not figuring out the position/speed is a red (not flashing) herring, we're not talking about a fighter jet here, we're talking about a bike leisurely moving and cars driving at city speeds.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
The flashing is not doing you any favors, you know.
I thought you're replying to @Karla and was confused.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I'd rather piss off people and be noticed, than being killed by a happy driver.
Since the retarded flashing is both distracting and blinding, it’s more likely that I’ll both kill you and be pissed off this way. But sure, your choice. Best case I’ll just honk at you to GTFO.
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@topspin TIL that noticing another road user is "distracting", and that somehow a flashing light is blinding while the same lamp but not in flashing mode presumably isn't.
If you're so worked up by a measly flashing light to "at best" honk at it, I'd be glad to let you go as far away from me as you can.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@topspin TIL that noticing another road user is "distracting"
At a certain point, I notice you so much that I stop noticing others.
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@Gąska That's a great pickup line.
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@remi also: flashing.
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@Zecc
E_NO_FLASHING
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@remi Tough croud.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Not figuring out the position/speed is a red (not flashing) herring, we're not talking about a fighter jet here, we're talking about a bike leisurely moving and cars driving at city speeds.
We're talking of suicidal maniacs darting into and out of lanes at unpredictable times and places. Coming from all kinds of blind spots. Even from behind the damn pillars between the car windows.
The whole problem would not exist if you rode your bike in the middle of the lane like a car. Or had a separate path so you'd be out of the way completely. But no, you'll dart from nowhere across two lanes, or past two cars behind me, and I'll have less time to react to you than I do to the damn fighter jet; at least I can hear that one coming. And then I have a split second to make a decision on whether I shoud emergency-brake or not. And I prefer not to, since I have no desire to get rear-ended either.
So if I can positively identify your vector as crossing mine in that time, I'll try to avoid a collision. But if you look like road-side video advert, or I can't positively place you on the road, then you've dug your own grave. Doubly so if you decide to do it in dark and rain; that's sheer lunacy.
Luckily, unlike some provincial towns in France, the totality of my commute is lined with a separate bicycle lane. However, several people seem to be worried that they are not noticed, as they have a strong flashing front light. Enough to cause some people seizures. I should reassure them by flashing back. (Counter-
)Also, if you wish to increase your visibility and safety, may I suggest a better solution, may I suggest reglective tape? If you cover the whole bike with it (or reflective paint), you'll be easily recognizable as a bicycle from the shape, and the car drivers will be able to recognize not just your position, but likely behavior too. After all a bicycle moves differently from a pedestrian ( or a car, in this scenario ).
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@topspin TIL that noticing another road user is "distracting",
Put your bike lamp to flash in your field of vision while you write your responses here, and you'll notice the problem.
and that somehow a flashing light is blinding while the same lamp but not in flashing mode presumably isn't.
You know how human eyes adapt to ambient light levels, and reduce gain when presented a bright light? And then the light goes off again, and the eye tries to see what caused it? Rinse and repeat. And yes, it is more blinding.
If you're so worked up by a measly flashing light to "at best" honk at it, I'd be glad to let you go as far away from me as you can.
A strong enough flasher hides stuff in front of it, so you're putting other people at risk. That reaction is understandable.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
We're talking of suicidal maniacs [
]OK, sure, whatever.
Also, if you wish to increase your visibility and safety, may I suggest a better solution, may I suggest reglective tape?
Like, the reflective bands that were already on my backpack (and all other reflective bits on my bike) and clearly weren't enough? You're saying I need to be even more visible? That I need something that would positively grabs other drivers' attention? Like... a flashing light maybe?
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
You're saying I need to be even more visible?
I'm saying you need to be recognizable. Not just a random flashing spot.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@topspin TIL that noticing another road user is "distracting",
Put your bike lamp to flash in your field of vision while you write your responses here, and you'll notice the problem.
Yes, I will notice that there is a flashing lamp in my field of vision. Which is, like, almost as if it was the entire purpose of the whole idea
:mind-blown:You know how human eyes adapt to ambient light levels, and reduce gain when presented a bright light? And then the light goes off again, and the eye tries to see what caused it? Rinse and repeat. And yes, it is more blinding.
TIL that you have eyes that adapt to changes of luminosity more than once per second. Are you sure you're human?
A strong enough flasher hides stuff in front of it, so you're putting other people at risk. That reaction is understandable.
A strong enough not-flasher would cause exactly the same effect. It's almost as if the flashing isn't the issue here.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@topspin TIL that noticing another road user is "distracting", and that somehow a flashing light is blinding while the same lamp but not in flashing mode presumably isn't.
Um, yes it is. High frequency flickering is highly distracting and yes, a light that just turned on is brighter to your eyes than one that’s constantly on. That’s pretty basic, actually.
Really, you think it makes you safer from these rude cars, but if you actually use legal lights I see you perfectly fine. No need to pull stupid stunts like that.And about cars using turning indicators: that frequency is way lower and doesn’t turn off the normal headlights. Imagine car lights being completely off for two seconds at a time at night, that’d be completely insane.
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@topspin said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Imagine car lights being completely off for two seconds at a time at night, that’d be completely insane.
I suddenly understand what you guys have against flashing lights, you're imagining something that's totally not what they are.
@dkf said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
The frequency is between 1 Hz and 4 Hz
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Also, if you wish to increase your visibility and safety, may I suggest a better solution, may I suggest reglective tape? If you cover the whole bike with it (or reflective paint), you'll be easily recognizable as a bicycle from the shape, and the car drivers will be able to recognize not just your position, but likely behavior too.
When I was knocked down, I was riding straight, in my lane. It's idiot car drivers who think all bicycles are slow, so of course they can get "safely" cut them off. No amount of reflectivity can fix stupid.
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I like how you guys are basically recreating the
<blink>tag debate, but for bikes.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@topspin said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Imagine car lights being completely off for two seconds at a time at night, that’d be completely insane.
I suddenly understand what you guys have against flashing lights, you're imagining something that's totally not what they are.
Says the guy who didn't understand that part was about the turn signals.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@topspin said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Imagine car lights being completely off for two seconds at a time at night, that’d be completely insane.
I suddenly understand what you guys have against flashing lights, you're imagining something that's totally not what they are.
We describe what we see every day. I've seen everything from 0.5Hz to 15Hz (estimated) on bicycles. Basically strobes. Although 4Hz is enough to be very irritating already.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
The flashing ... makes it harder to note which direction you're moving in.
The rate and, especially, duty cycle of the flashing seems to make a huge difference, at least in my experience. A bright strobe light is great for being noticed, but absolutely terrible for judging distance or movement. A blinking light with a much longer on time may not be as easily noticed, but the fact that it is on for long enough to observe movement relative to other objects makes it much, much easier to judge where it is.
Driving through rural areas at night (I'm thinking particularly of California's Central Valley, because I've driven it quite a few times, but I'm sure other places have them, too), it's common to see a flashing white strobe light in the distance (radio/TV antenna tower with aircraft collision-avoidance lights). It looks fairly close, maybe a few hundred meters, and you expect to pass it in a minute. But you continue driving, and it doesn't appear to get any closer; you may drive 10km or more before light has moved noticeably; all the while it continues to look like it's a couple hundred meters away. The brief flashes give no opportunity to compare its motion relative to other objects at various distances, thus removing one of the most important cues to depth perception (plus, it's so bright and visible from so far away that few if any other objects at a comparable distance are visible at night, but that's not a problem with a bike light).
A Strobe light Bad Very noticeable, but no depth perception B Blinking light with, say, 1s frequency and ~50% duty cycle OK Still fairly noticeable; better depth perception C Steady light and/or reflective clothing Fair Good opportunity for depth perception, if noticed, but may blend with other lights. Reflective material on moving legs may significantly improve noticeability. None of the above Darwin award A+B+C Best Flashing/blinking attract notice; blinking/steady lights give opportunity for good depth perception OTOH, people tend to steer towards whatever they're looking at. You want drivers to be aware of you, where you are, and where you are moving; but not focus on you to the extent that they will drift towards you.
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@dcon said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Also, if you wish to increase your visibility and safety, may I suggest a better solution, may I suggest reglective tape? If you cover the whole bike with it (or reflective paint), you'll be easily recognizable as a bicycle from the shape, and the car drivers will be able to recognize not just your position, but likely behavior too.
When I was knocked down, I was riding straight, in my lane. It's idiot car drivers who think all bicycles are slow, so of course they can get "safely" cut them off. No amount of reflectivity can fix stupid.
I always try to keep as much distance to any bicycles on the road as I can. Since I can't be sure to predict their movements. And since (in
, statistically) most of them don't hold a driver's license, I can't trust them to predict mine either.So the major part why I'd like cyclists to be recognizable as such, is so I can be extra alert around them.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I've seen everything from 0.5Hz to 15Hz (estimated) on bicycles. Basically strobes.
0.5 Hz is strobe now...
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
So the major part why I'd like cyclists to be recognizable as such, is so I can be extra alert around them.
It would be so nice if instead of being yet another red light so easily confused with the rest, they were easily distinguishable. Like, if their light was flashing.
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Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I've seen everything from 0.5Hz to 15Hz (estimated) on bicycles. Basically strobes.
0.5 Hz is strobe now...
Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
So the major part why I'd like cyclists to be recognizable as such, is so I can be extra alert around them.
It would be so nice if instead of being yet another red light so easily confused with the rest, they were easily distinguishable. Like, if their light was flashing.
Flashing like every other pedestrian's reflector, a pond in the moonlight, a cellphone, or a video ad board?
I can't make you mark yourself sensibly. I can only tell you what would yield the least chance that you get run over by me. But if you insist on being yet another flashing spot in the cityscape, then it's your funeral.
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@Gąska said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding.
Well it's not like there is any sensible argument to reply to anyway. It's a strobe even when it's 0.5 Hz. It's blinding even if the same non-flashing light isn't. The reflection of the moon is closer to a flashing light than a non-flashing one.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Flashing like every other pedestrian's reflector, a pond in the moonlight, a cellphone, or a video ad board?
I have never seen a pond in the moonlight, a cellphone, or a video ad board flash steadily and periodically like a bike light. I'll give the pedestrian a maybe, since some nighttime joggers/runners use visibility lights similar to bike lights, and for the same reason.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
It's a strobe even when it's 0.5 Hz.
It's not the frequency that makes it a strobe or not a strobe; it's the duty cycle. Brief flashes, with (relatively) long intervals of darkness between flashes makes a strobe, whatever the repetition rate. Flashes of longer than, say, 1/4 second make it not a strobe, regardless of the repetition rate. And there's some middle ground where it's sorta strobe-like.
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@HardwareGeek said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Flashing like every other pedestrian's reflector, a pond in the moonlight, a cellphone, or a video ad board?
I have never seen a pond in the moonlight, a cellphone, or a video ad board flash steadily and periodically like a bike light. I'll give the pedestrian a maybe, since some nighttime joggers/runners use visibility lights similar to bike lights, and for the same reason.
The first things that popped to mind. Though if no ad-board or cell-wielding teen has ever left you alarmed, thinking you just missed a phantom bicycle, then you haven't seen the worst of them.
Edit: of -> if
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@Gąska said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
The flashing is not doing you any favors, you know.
I thought you're replying to @Karla and was confused.
LOL, not anymore.
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@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
That's illegal in NYC if you are over 13.
INB4:
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@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
That's illegal in NYC if you are over 13.
INB4:
Well, NYC is its own world. I know that others around here have said that it's illegal in their places, too. I think that might be true around here. Doesn't make it wrong. We have very little pedestrian traffic on the sidewalks anyways, even less when it gets dark.
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@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
That's illegal in NYC if you are over 13.
INB4:
Well, NYC is its own world. I know that others around here have said that it's illegal in their places, too. I think that might be true around here. Doesn't make it wrong. We have very little pedestrian traffic on the sidewalks anyways, even less when it gets dark.
I would have to check the laws here, but I think it is a problem if there is a bike path present. There are a number of roads were cycling on them will get you ticketed (provided that you live).
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@Dragoon said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
There are a number of roads were cycling on them will get you ticketed
The only roads like that that I'm aware of are limited access highways. Though sometimes you can ride on those - since they're the only way from point A to point B.
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@Dragoon said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
That's illegal in NYC if you are over 13.
INB4:
Well, NYC is its own world. I know that others around here have said that it's illegal in their places, too. I think that might be true around here. Doesn't make it wrong. We have very little pedestrian traffic on the sidewalks anyways, even less when it gets dark.
I would have to check the laws here, but I think it is a problem if there is a bike path present. There are a number of roads were cycling on them will get you ticketed (provided that you live).
Bike path, sidewalk, same diff.
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@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
That's illegal in NYC if you are over 13.
INB4:
Well, NYC is its own world. I know that others around here have said that it's illegal in their places, too. I think that might be true around here. Doesn't make it wrong. We have very little pedestrian traffic on the sidewalks anyways, even less when it gets dark.
Yeah, we have much sidewalk traffic than most other places. In some places it would be impossible to go on the sidewalk.
Cars tend to move more predictably than pedestrians.
It isn't seriously enforced. Delivery bikers do it and somewhat recklessly.
I'll go on the sidewalk for the last 50 ft from the corner to my door.
If I bike with my daughter I will follow her on the sidewalk. I go slow and I take care to give pedestrians plenty of space. They get the friendly, "ding" of the bell, rather than the "get the fuck out of my way" horn.
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@Dragoon said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
That's illegal in NYC if you are over 13.
INB4:
Well, NYC is its own world. I know that others around here have said that it's illegal in their places, too. I think that might be true around here. Doesn't make it wrong. We have very little pedestrian traffic on the sidewalks anyways, even less when it gets dark.
I would have to check the laws here, but I think it is a problem if there is a bike path present. There are a number of roads were cycling on them will get you ticketed (provided that you live).
Most bridges do not allow bikes on the road. They have shared bike/pedestrian path. I hate them, too narrow to have 2 way traffic with both bikes and pedestrians.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Gąska said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding.
Well it's not like there is any sensible argument to reply to anyway. It's a strobe even when it's 0.5 Hz. It's blinding even if the same non-flashing light isn't. The reflection of the moon is closer to a flashing light than a non-flashing one.
I would be fine with it if, say, it was continuously on and switching between white and yellow for some attention.
But other than that, my original point stands. I can see you fine if you use all the normal lights (front light, back light, reflectors, etc. as traffic rules demand). It’s not that your choice is that you’ll gladly trade in annoying me more for more safety, it’s that this flashing shit decreases your and my safety and that’s why it annoys me in the first place. And yes, that may depend somewhat on the exact model of flashing lights you’re using, but the ones I’ve encountered on the road were annoying to no end. My own bike has continuous lights and reflectors as it should.
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@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
"get the fuck out of my way" horn.
I would just stand there, fixing your... eyes. Yeah, that's it, your eyes
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@TimeBandit said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
"get the fuck out of my way" horn.
I would just stand there, fixing your... eyes. Yeah, that's it, your eyes
Depending on how fast I am going, it might leave a mark.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Carnage I don't know how close you can look to a real police officer without that itself being an offense, but it certainly looks like it would be a very good strategy!
There's a whole series about one named "Jeremy DeWitt" all about this!
Though he really does use vehicles very much intended to evoke that imagery.
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@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Sheesh. Just ride your bicycles on the sidewalks like god intended.
Take back the road! Make cars drive on the sidewalk and people walk on the road!
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@HardwareGeek said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
It's a strobe even when it's 0.5 Hz.
It's not the frequency that makes it a strobe or not a strobe; it's the duty cycle. Brief flashes, with (relatively) long intervals of darkness between flashes makes a strobe, whatever the repetition rate. Flashes of longer than, say, 1/4 second make it not a strobe, regardless of the repetition rate. And there's some middle ground where it's sorta strobe-like.
I'm now imagining the perfect solution: an inverse-strobe, where the light is mostly-on except for a brief moment when it's not.
Like a twinkle!
New fad idea! Twinklers!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
There's a whole series about one named "Jeremy DeWitt" all about this!
I recognize that name. He got into just a tiny bit of legal trouble about that.
He owns (or owned; I'm not sure of the current status of the business) a business in (IIRC) Florida — yeah, he's a Florida Man — that provides escorts for funeral processions. They keep the processions orderly. I'm not sure exactly what they do, because they aren't allowed to violate traffic laws, block intersections, or prevent cars that aren't part of the procession from merging into or through the procession. They are allowed to have vehicles with flashing lights, amber and purple, NOT red and blue, so they're not mistaken for actual police. They are allowed to wear uniforms, but nothing that looks like a police uniform.None of that stopped Jeremy "Witless" DeWitt. His employees — sorry, "independent contractors" — wear gray uniforms with official-looking badges and "duty belts" equipped with handcuffs, mace, tasers and, in at least a couple of cases, sidearms. They drive either motorcycles or SUVs painted in a way that looks, to a casual glance, very much like a police cruiser. He has been caught using red and blue lights. He and his
employeescontractors routinely speed, block intersections so that processions can proceed through red lights, and intimidate other motorists who try to merge into the processions. Hisemployeescontractors all know each other by nicknames/pseudonyms, and for the most part, don't know each other's real names, because they know what they're doing is illegal.DeWitt is also a convicted felon. He served his time and was released to rejoin society. It's perfectly legal for him to own and operate his funeral escort business. It's just the way he operates his business that is a problem. It's almost like he's trying to see how many ways he can get himself sent back to prison.
