Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?
-
I'm building a new PC and I'll need to update BIOS so it's compatible with my brand new Ryzen 5600X. But I need an already-compatible CPU to do the upgrade, which I don't have. Anyone here knows someone within driving distance from Chicago who has an older Ryzen (3000 series and only 3000 series) and would be willing to lend it for a few minutes?
I really doubt it but hey, threads are free.
-
Once-upon-a-time I heard that some CPUs came with an extra shitty-old extra for this purpose.
I wonder if you could use one of these if nobody else has a spare?
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-A4-3300-Graphics-Dual-Core-Processor/dp/B016Z386CE/
-
Now I'm extra glad that the parts shop I frequent has a BIOS upgrade service.
Your best bet may be eBay. There's got to be someone who dumped water on their motherboard.
But if you don't find the 3000 series, what's your back-up plan? Find the motherboard's FLASH chip, and Raspberry Pi the new firmware into it?
One of my coworkers did this, btw. I was mighty confused when he strolled into my office and asked whether I had a Raspberry Pi that I could lend to him. Because this fellow is an electrical/mechanical designer with zero software expertise. But he'd found instructions online on how to recover the motherboard after a BIOS upgrade had failed. By connecting the Pi via SPI to the FLASH chip housing the fimware.
He succeeded in recovering it, too. I was impressed.
-
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
But if you don't find the 3000 series, what's your back-up plan?
$30 trip to Micro Center. But I'd rather buy something else for those $30.
-
Your MB does not have BIOS flashback or similar? Most mid/high-end should have.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
Once-upon-a-time I heard that some CPUs came with an extra shitty-old extra for this purpose.
I wonder if you could use one of these if nobody else has a spare?
That should work
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I'm building a new PC and I'll need to update BIOS so it's compatible with my brand new Ryzen 5600X. But I need an already-compatible CPU to do the upgrade, which I don't have. Anyone here knows someone within driving distance from Chicago who has an older Ryzen (3000 series and only 3000 series) and would be willing to lend it for a few minutes?
I really doubt it but hey, threads are free.
I'm a little further than 2 hours and I don't exactly have one but I might be able to figure something out. Of course, $30 MicroCenter trip might be easier. You looking at taking it in to service there?
-
@Atazhaia said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
Your MB does not have BIOS flashback or similar? Most mid/high-end should have.
TIL.
They finally put in the ability to read a file off a (FAT32) stick and write it to the FLASH IC without the main CPU's involvement.Considering it's been technically possible to do that with an MCU smaller than 5x5mm since at least the turn of the millenium, it's about damn time.
-
@Atazhaia said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
Your MB does not have BIOS flashback or similar? Most mid/high-end should have.
Cheapo B550, so no.
-
So this one, then.
ASRock B550M Pro4
.png)
Supports AMD AM4 Socket Ryzen™ 3000, 3000 G-Series, 4000 G-Series, 5000 and 5000 G-Series Desktop Processors<span style=color:red;>*</span>; 8 Power Phase Design, Digi Power; Supports DDR4 4733+ (OC); 1 PCIe 4.0 x16, 1 PCIe 3.0 x16, 1 PCIe 3.0 x1, 1 M.2 Key E for WiFi; Graphics Output Options: HDMI...
Well, at least the SPI connector is clearly marked.
-
(apologies for partly derailing a help thread...)
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I'd rather buy something else for those $30.
Like... gas for your car?
within driving distance
2 hours each way = 4 hours, assuming an average speed of 40 mph (mix of highway and city) that's 160 miles, average fuel economy seems to be around 25 mpg so that's 6 gallons, at around 2.5 $/gal that's already 15 of your 30$ gone. Add in a snack/coffee, and the 4 hours of the trip...
Honestly, I think your backup plan seems a better value overall:
$30 trip to Micro Center.
-
@remi Don't forget to account for the hours of work lost. A trip to the Micro Center is likely to take less than an hour. Even if all @Gąska does for the remaining 3 hours is holler at the corner of a street with a hat at his feet, he's likely to shave that remaining $15 down to almost nothing. Or even make a profit. But I've never heard him sing, so my prediction may be off.
-
@remi said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
2 hours each way = 4 hours, assuming an average speed of 40 mph (mix of highway and city) that's 160 miles, average fuel economy seems to be around 25 mpg so that's 6 gallons, at around 2.5 $/gal that's already 15 of your 30$ gone. Add in a snack/coffee, and the 4 hours of the trip...
Call it a road trip. I've heard that people used to do those for fun at some point in history. (Probably back when gas was cheaper.)
-
@remi said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
(apologies for partly derailing a help thread...)
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I'd rather buy something else for those $30.
Like... gas for your car?
within driving distance
2 hours each way = 4 hours, assuming an average speed of 40 mph (mix of highway and city) that's 160 miles, average fuel economy seems to be around 25 mpg so that's 6 gallons, at around 2.5 $/gal that's already 15 of your 30$ gone. Add in a snack/coffee, and the 4 hours of the trip...
Honestly, I think your backup plan seems a better value overall:
$30 trip to Micro Center.
You forgot the value of the trip itself, and meeting new people, and verifying first-hand that it's actually been updated to the compatible version. No, I don't have trust issues, why?
-
@Gąska don't get me wrong, there are many reasons why you might prefer the road trip vs. the mall trip, and I wouldn't criticise you for that. If I were in your shoes and knew someone with the right hardware about that far, I would probably take the excuse to pay them a visit (well, not right now since
).But just don't delude yourself that you're doing it to save money.
-
My info may be out of date:
AMD Shipping Free APUs to Customers to Address Firmware Update Issue
It's not unusual for new CPUs to require UEFI/BIOS updates in order to function properly, but AMD's solution to this issue is some next-level-excellent customer service.
But I believe AMD will send you one if you ask them.
-
@Ben_Warre they still offer that (well, technically, they offer that again).
https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-105
This service is free of charge with the following condition:
(...) Also required is a summary or copy of the communication with the motherboard manufacturer indicating why support from the Original Design Manufacturer (ODM) is not suitable.
So it would save me some money, but I'll have to wait more. Then again, I'm waiting for GPU anyway...
-
PS5 arrives today. Look at all the bullshit I won't have to deal with!
-
@error look at all the bullshit you WILL have to deal with instead!
PS5 Users Already Reporting Console-Breaking Flaw
The PlayStation 5 may not be out yet, however we already have reports of a console-breaking flaw in the next-gen hardware.
-
-
@cvi said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@remi said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
2 hours each way = 4 hours, assuming an average speed of 40 mph (mix of highway and city) that's 160 miles, average fuel economy seems to be around 25 mpg so that's 6 gallons, at around 2.5 $/gal that's already 15 of your 30$ gone. Add in a snack/coffee, and the 4 hours of the trip...
Call it a road trip. I've heard that people used to do those for fun at some point in history. (Probably back when gas was cheaper.)
Meh, still pretty cheap.
And that's before adjusting for fuel efficiency.
-
Relevant old video:
-
@hungrier reminds me of my friend who had the Xbox 360’s red ring of death twice and no end of annoyances getting that shit replaced. The shop just said “yeah, we don’t take that back, you have to send it to Microsoft yourself” (which I believe is clearly illegal under German consumer laws) and then he had to get a coupon to send it back and it was picked up by a courier at the most annoying time, etc.
On the other hand, I waited like 3 years to get a Nintendo switch, they haven’t dropped the price one cent and there’s still like 5 games available.
-
@topspin I had a 360 get RROD, and had no trouble getting it replaced by Microsoft. They gave me a free game for my trouble, and (I think unintentionally) sent me an extra hard drive along with the replacement system.
Later on, the that second one also got RROD and was still within warranty, and the HDMI models had been released by that point so I was hoping I would get one of those. I didn't, but in any case I didn't have any problem with their warranty service.
-
@topspin said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
The shop just said “yeah, we don’t take that back, you have to send it to Microsoft yourself” (which I believe is clearly illegal under German consumer laws)
In Poland, the legality depends on what exactly you say when returning. When you say "rękojmia", you're guaranteed to have working equipment or your money back in 14 days, but if you say "gwarancja", you're S.O.L.
-
This also reminded me of a problem I had with the Wii. For a while, I had stopped actively using it, but kept it on standby like normal. When I turned it back on after a while, I noticed a bunch of weird artifacts on screen that would show up in every game and in the menu. It turns out that the standby mode on the Wii would use just enough power to gradually heat up the system, but the fan would never turn on since it was in a low-power standby state, so eventually it cooked itself, maybe desoldered something or blew a capacitor or whatever, and caused these problems. I was able to get that replaced under warranty as well.
-
@hungrier said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@topspin I had a 360 get RROD, and had no trouble getting it replaced by Microsoft. They gave me a free game for my trouble, and (I think unintentionally) sent me an extra hard drive along with the replacement system.
Later on, the that second one also got RROD and was still within warranty, and the HDMI models had been released by that point so I was hoping I would get one of those. I didn't, but in any case I didn't have any problem with their warranty service.
I had no issue with them replacing my 360 either.
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@topspin said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
The shop just said “yeah, we don’t take that back, you have to send it to Microsoft yourself” (which I believe is clearly illegal under German consumer laws)
In Poland, the legality depends on what exactly you say when returning. When you say "rękojmia", you're guaranteed to have working equipment or your money back in 14 days, but if you say "gwarancja", you're S.O.L.
I have no idea what those words mean, so instead I’d probably go for “kurwa” or “gib clay”.
On a more serious note, in Germany there’s two concepts called “Garantie“ and “Gewährleistung“, both of which I’d loosely translate as “warranty”. However, the former is provided optionally by the manufacturer for however long and under whatever terms the manufacturer wants to, the latter is the legally required warranty. The confusion comes in because colloquially the word “Garantie“ is commonly used to refer to the latter though, which can be abused because then they can argue their own terms even though there are legally binding terms already. I assume the situation you describe is the same technicality.
It’s also often abused to trick people into buying either extended warranty they don’t need, or buying warranty that isn’t really extended in the first place. IIRC Apple got a slap on their wrists for selling their Apple Care warranty by making it sound like you need that to have warranty at all, when in reality the legal warranty was just as long already. Of course they argued that their extended one offered much better service, but for a large fraction of people buying it it probably was just disinformation / false advertisement to make them buy something they didn’t need.
-
@topspin said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
IIRC Apple got a slap on their wrists for selling their Apple Care warranty by making it sound like you need that to have warranty at all, when in reality the legal warranty was just as long already. Of course they argued that their extended one offered much better service, but for a large fraction of people buying it it probably was just disinformation / false advertisement to make them buy something they didn’t need.
AppleCare does offer more than a normal warranty, although it's essentially insurance and like all non-mandatory insurance it's a gamble whether it's worthwhile or not. It covers accidental damage so if you smash the screen on your iPhone or spill drink on your Macbook it's probably worth it but if you're careful and/or lucky it's not.
Claiming it's required to get any warranty is, of course, complete horseshit and they need to stop that but the rest isn't completely false.
-
@topspin said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
On a more serious note, in Germany there’s two concepts called “Garantie“ and “Gewährleistung“,
If you yelled GEWÄHRLEISTUNG to me, I'd do everything you want too.
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@error look at all the bullshit you WILL have to deal with instead!
PS5 Users Already Reporting Console-Breaking Flaw
The PlayStation 5 may not be out yet, however we already have reports of a console-breaking flaw in the next-gen hardware.
Nothing major, but I notice if I put the console in rest mode the game drops frames until I restart the game.
The game loads so fast this takes seconds. Nothing ever takes more than a couple seconds to load. Which is good because I die a lot in Demon's Souls.
-
@error said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
Nothing ever takes more than a couple seconds to load.
Wait until they release games that actually target PS5.
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@error said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
Nothing ever takes more than a couple seconds to load.
Wait until they release games that actually target PS5.
AFAIK it's the only platform Demon's Souls remake supports.
-
@error "is released on" doesn't imply "target". For the last 20 years, despite mind-boggling improvements to storage bandwidth across generations, game load times have always stabilized at about 30-60 seconds, and I don't see why that would change once devs learn to use the new platform to its full potential.
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
ame load times have always stabilized at about 30-60 seconds,
Map load times for Hypatia average about 3 seconds, but the actual act of spawning the new process on a server and thence telling people to transfer into it takes longer.
I really don't know why most games take forever to load myself...
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I really don't know why most games take forever to load myself...
Really?...
From the few games that actually tell what they're doing, I've noticed the following:
"Decompressing resources"
"Generating mipmaps"
"Compiling shaders"And then there was DE: Mankind Divided, which we know had each level compressed into a single package. It had to read from disk and decompress the full map, to load it. And those maps were some GBs in size.
-
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
"Decompressing resources"
Okay, that's fair. For whatever reason unpacking is still a single-threaded task.
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
"Generating mipmaps"
That should be done at pack time, or cook.@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
"Compiling shaders"
I could understand recompiling in the background for potentially better performance, but those should also come baked as well for most cases. And should only happen at most once per game update. Not ever map load!
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
And those maps were some GBs in size.
Well, sure. Hypatia's main hub level map is a gig and a half. Doesn't take half a minute to load it though. Primarily because the main pieces of map info get loaded first, followed by low-res textures, then increasing up until the graphics card says no more. And not halting the playing of the game just because you haven't yet loaded the 8K super res reflection shader tracing bullcrap.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
"Compiling shaders"
I could understand recompiling in the background for potentially better performance, but those should also come baked as well for most cases. And should only happen at most once per game update. Not ever map load!
I kind-of understand compiling on every game-launch. Drivers change. Windows updates. And some people have dual-GPU switching monstrosities. At some point, it becomes easier to just compile every time.
Of course, that's assuming that the shader is not level-dependent. The Stalker series had a use case for that, I think...? My memory is a bit hazy there. but it had a chapter in the GPU Gems books. I should look at it again one of these days.
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
And those maps were some GBs in size.
Well, sure. Hypatia's main hub level map is a gig and a half. Doesn't take half a minute to load it though. Primarily because the main pieces of map info get loaded first, followed by low-res textures, then increasing up until the graphics card says no more. And not halting the playing of the game just because you haven't yet loaded the 8K super res reflection shader tracing bullcrap.
I actually dislike this tactic in single-player instances. I notice e.g. the guns changing textures a few seconds in, after swapping weapons, and it distracts me. It feels like a chameleon is moving in my vision; I see movement, but when I look at it, it's trying to pretend like nothing's changed.
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
If you yelled GEWÄHRLEISTUNG to me, I'd do everything you want too.
Kink thread is
-
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
From the few games that actually tell what they're doing, I've noticed the following:
"Decompressing resources"
"Generating mipmaps"
"Compiling shaders"Don't forget: "Reticulating Splines"
-
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I really don't know why most games take forever to load myself...
Really?...
From the few games that actually tell what they're doing, I've noticed the following:
"Decompressing resources"
"Generating mipmaps"
"Compiling shaders"Some games do much more than that:
(World of Goo loading screen, as you can guess it randomly picks the messages so you need a few loads to be sure you've seen them all, especially since they fade out quickly so usually you can't read more than a couple per load)
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@topspin said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
On a more serious note, in Germany there’s two concepts called “Garantie“ and “Gewährleistung“,
If you yelled GEWÄHRLEISTUNG to me, I'd do everything you want too.
-
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
GEWÄHRLEISTUNG
Not to be confused with GEWEHRLEISTUNG.
-
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I kind-of understand compiling on every game-launch. Drivers change. Windows updates. And some people have dual-GPU switching monstrosities. At some point, it becomes easier to just compile every time.
I really don't see why they can't cache shaders. Configurations aren't that fluid in most people's systems.
-
@dkf said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@acrow said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I kind-of understand compiling on every game-launch. Drivers change. Windows updates. And some people have dual-GPU switching monstrosities. At some point, it becomes easier to just compile every time.
I really don't see why they can't cache shaders. Configurations aren't that fluid in most people's systems.
Depends on whether you're sure that you'll get the memo when an update makes your pre-compiled shader incompatible.
Now, I haven't worked with anything other than OpenGLES2.0, and even that was a whiole ago. But I'd be surprised if even the newer graphics APIs have a method for checking a compiled shader's compatibility.
Hey, @Tsaukpaetra and @Mason_Wheeler , you're doing game development, right? Have you come across a method for checking that?
Edit:
'd.
-
@dkf said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
I really don't see why they can't cache shaders. Configurations aren't that fluid in most people's systems.
The default is that shaders are cached. Either the drivers do it internally (OpenGL), or the API gives a relatively simple interface to control caching. For example, Vulkan has the VkPipelineCache interfaces that allow you to retrieve a blob of cached data from the drivers after the first build, and hand it back to them when loading shaders the next time around. The data in the cache is implementation defined, aside from a predefined header that include some basic data about the device/driver (allowing you and the drivers to verify that the cache is usable).
There are of course many ways to fuck that up (e.g. generated shader code always differs; or you generate shader code at runtime in a "high-level" shader language and manually invoke a shader compiler to the intermediate language before passing it the API without caching the intermediate language results).
-
@cvi how many shaders are we typically talking about, and how large/complicated are they?
From my extremely limited experience playing around with OpenGL ES a bit, a few shaders of a few dozen / a hundred lines compile instantly. Do modern games have millions of lines of shader code or what? What does all of that even do?
-
@topspin Some of them produce that realistic water surface rippling. Some make the lights and shadows of that aforementioned water surface, to the bottom of the pool.
The smoke and spark effects.
Shadows...This is a complete arsepull, but I bet a AAA game has at least a dozen different shaders in use at any given time, for step-by-step processing of the scene. Most of them render to a texture. And a few hundred lines for each sounds about right.
-
@topspin I don't really have any very good numbers from an actual title. Maybe @Tsaukpaetra is the right person to comment on that. I would imagine that it varies a bunch between titles anyway.
The following is from a 2015 talk ("The Rendering Pipeline - Challenges & Next Steps"):
Each one of those passes is likely associated with at least one shader (though not all of the passes will be active at the same time). For example, "bloom" is likely more than a single shader (a simple implementation might do something like downsample & threshold, blur vert, blur horiz, upsample in separate shaders).Nowadays, it's likely even "worse", with compute shaders being commonly available. They might be used for simulation tasks (like @acrow mentions), or just to offload other stuff move to the GPU (culling, ...). I've been building BVHs on the GPU for a while now. I don't remember the exact count, but that's probably about half a dozen individual shaders just for building.
Shaders might be generated on the fly, for different situations (e.g., with different stuff hardcoded). And IME, it's not very hard to make a shader take a few seconds of compilation time. Even a modest übershader can hit that relatively quickly if one isn't careful.
Outside of "traditional" OpenGL where one hands the API source code directly, other APIs go via an intermediate language. Drivers then compile the IL to on-device code. The latter is largely a black box (maybe different for consoles/larger studios), so one has fairly little control over it. We've definitively had problems with ~200 line shaders that took upward 3-5 minutes to compile, at a guess due to hitting some weird corner case in the optimizer.
Edit: Post is all over the place already, but just to clarify: the last compilation times I would consider a bug somewhere. In fact, anything over 10s is a bit suspicious, unless the shader is some sort of special monster.
Additionally, for those familiar with OpenGL: one of the big differences in Vulkan is that you build a full pipeline state that consists not only of the shaders, but also stuff like the format of the input(s), and states like blending, depth testing, ... (see VkGraphicsPipelineCreateInfo). Meaning that if you change some settings, it will require a new (derivative) pipeline. This in turn might require additional shader (re-)compilation, as some of the settings might change the generated device code. OpenGL hides this from the user, but the same holds true.
-
@Luhmann said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
@Gąska said in Anyone with 3rd gen Ryzen to borrow?:
If you yelled GEWÄHRLEISTUNG to me, I'd do everything you want too.
Kink thread is
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-A4-3300-Graphics-Dual-Core-Processor/dp/B016Z386CE
