Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@boomzilla Yeah, but you don't need the antibacterial stuff for that.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa the seen vs the unseen. It's a recurring theme with policy making at all levels, including private organizations as well as public ones.
I also see, however, that he failed to propose a working alternative.
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa the seen vs the unseen. It's a recurring theme with policy making at all levels, including private organizations as well as public ones.
I also see, however, that he failed to propose a working alternative.
I didn't read it (because ). But telling people that their perpetual motion machine won't work is just fine even if you can't come up with a working alternative version. There is value in shooting down stupid (YMMV on what counts) ideas.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa the seen vs the unseen. It's a recurring theme with policy making at all levels, including private organizations as well as public ones.
I also see, however, that he failed to propose a working alternative.
I didn't read it (because ). But telling people that their perpetual motion machine won't work is just fine even if you can't come up with a working alternative version. There is value in shooting down stupid (YMMV on what counts) ideas.
I'm not seeing anything in his statements that I've not already seen on the front pages of several of our newspapers. Also, he very explicitly states that this shutdown is not a bad idea.
Maybe you should try again?
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa the seen vs the unseen. It's a recurring theme with policy making at all levels, including private organizations as well as public ones.
I also see, however, that he failed to propose a working alternative.
I didn't read it (because ). But telling people that their perpetual motion machine won't work is just fine even if you can't come up with a working alternative version. There is value in shooting down stupid (YMMV on what counts) ideas.
I'm not seeing anything in his statements that I've not already seen on the front pages of several of our newspapers. Also, he very explicitly states that this shutdown is not a bad idea.
Maybe you should try again?
Again. I didn't read the article. Just commenting on the idea, somewhat tangentially, that there's a frequent policy difficulty that arises when we focus on what we can see/measure directly (rather than the knock-on, off-screen effects). I'm not defending anything or proposing anything. Just noting that this is really common everywhere, even in completely "normal" circumstances. Literally, the title is what reminded me of it. That's all. That's 100% of it.
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@Benjamin-Hall Yeah, and? I could tell you off the bat several topics where popular US policies have knock-on effects which are regularly ignored.
Nothing new. Over here, pretty much any politician and their grandmothers are telling us that this lockdown really shouldn't be imposed longer than it has to be. This article just added to that noise.
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall Yeah, and? I could tell you off the bat several topics where popular US policies have knock-on effects which are regularly ignored.
Nothing new. Over here, pretty much any politician and their grandmothers are telling us that this lockdown really shouldn't be imposed longer than it has to be. This article just added to that noise.
I did read the article, and I'm not sure that the title of the article is an accurate summary of the main point of the article. I didn't get from it that he was making specific policy recommendations or criticisms. I got the impression that it was mostly a theoretical article, designed to clarify some of the logical issues.
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall Yeah, and? I could tell you off the bat several topics where popular US policies have knock-on effects which are regularly ignored.
Nothing new. Over here, pretty much any politician and their grandmothers are telling us that this lockdown really shouldn't be imposed longer than it has to be. This article just added to that noise.
And? I WASN'T CLAIMING ANYONE WAS ANY BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. Exactly the reverse. And mostly just musing. Seriously, you have a huge chip on your shoulder and constantly try to make everything antagonistic when it isn't.
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@jinpa I didn't even get that bit. Yeah, he summed up the moral quandary. So did everyone else.
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@jinpa I didn't even get that bit. Yeah, he summed up the moral quandary. So did everyone else.
I must have heard people use the word "minimax" thousands of times in the past couple of weeks. I'm so sick of it.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Second alternative joke: The Russians made entire cars that were biodegradable!
I think you mean East Germans rather than Russians. Unless you meant to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada, but they’re not biodegradable as much as that they make even American and British cars of the 1970s seem good quality.
That doesn't really do justice to Ladas. They were long-lasting if you just maintained them. I still see some on the road today. But they took the "no frills" approach very seriously, which gave a bad rep, I guess.
I was mainly thinking of the build quality, not durability, the latter likely being rather better than that of the Fiat they were derived from.
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Unless you meant to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada,
That's the one. I was rushed to make a joke. Plus, quarantine day drinking.
Was it the Lada or the Trabant, or possibly a different communist car, that had a body made from linen? Or denim? It was some fiber mixed with adhesive? Basically fiberglass without the glass?
The Trabant. I kind of doubt there was anything even not-bad for the environment in that car — the resin used for the body panels can’t have been very eco-friendly, and the clouds of blue smoke trailing after the cars probably wasn’t either. (I saw a lifetime’s worth of them on holiday in East Germany in the summer of 1990. Two years later, there were a lot fewer of them already for some inexplicable reason.)
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall Yeah, and? I could tell you off the bat several topics where popular US policies have knock-on effects which are regularly ignored.
Nothing new. Over here, pretty much any politician and their grandmothers are telling us that this lockdown really shouldn't be imposed longer than it has to be. This article just added to that noise.
I feel like we read totally different articles. My take is that he's explaining how we get to where we are and what the reasoning is based upon.
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@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Second alternative joke: The Russians made entire cars that were biodegradable!
I think you mean East Germans rather than Russians. Unless you meant to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada, but they’re not biodegradable as much as that they make even American and British cars of the 1970s seem good quality.
That doesn't really do justice to Ladas. They were long-lasting if you just maintained them. I still see some on the road today. But they took the "no frills" approach very seriously, which gave a bad rep, I guess.
I was mainly thinking of the build quality, not durability, the latter likely being rather better than that of the Fiat they were derived from.
Those Fiats were also very dependable if you maintained them. Very simple cars with good engines and mechanical quality. The big problem with Fiats has always been the electrics, according to popular wisdom. But that's not generally an issue for a '60s-era car.
A very good friend of mine says that her dream is to own a Lada Niva, complete with a bull bar. I find it a bizarre dream considering that we live in the flattest part of Southern Italy, with not much of a "trail" culture.
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So, hear this. The national welfare institute (INPS, Istituto Nazionale per la Previdenza Sociale) today was totally swamped because the government has announced a €600 aid for all small businesses, professionals, etc. (specifically what we call "partite IVA", basically VAT numbers). Predictably, the website was DoSed by all the people trying to view their profile, but wait, there's more! Users would login with their account, and when navigating the site would then find themselves logged in under another random account with large privacy implications (also for EU law, due to a violation of GDPR basically, AIUI, which means a potentially huge fine).
Official statement: "we've been attacked by hackers".
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
"we've been attacked by
hackershucksters"FTF the morons who designed the site architecture and code.
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Frankly I don't get how finding yourself logged in under another account is even possible in this day and age. It's, like, basic security? Isn't that the reason why cookies exist? I'd get it if for some reason the server lost track of its sessions and just dumped you onto the login screen again.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Frankly I don't get how finding yourself logged in under another account is even possible in this day and age.
I knew it sounded familar (okay, that was 4.5 years ago):
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cheong And that's supposed to help with a virus how?
Nope.
It'll however help my running nose when the pandemic is over. (I have running nose when the weather changes)
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden it won't help the virus, but it'll help the hysterical society to be less hysterical. Sometimes the only cure for lies is more lies.
I doubt it, since it has been talked a lot here about "cloth mask don't prevent virus".
Although I think it would provide better protection than those "bra converted masks" since bacteria won't grow inside.
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@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cheong And that's supposed to help with a virus how?
May help with the opportunistic bacterial infections that often complicate a viral infection.
And if you're running out of masks, having a moisture absorbing mask is much better than nothing.
If virus travel in aerosol form, having moisture absorbing layer means virus travelling this way would have trapped in that layer. It doesn't exactly stop virus continue to travel in with air you breath in, but hopefully the number would be much lower than you directly breath in the aerosol droplets.
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@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla Yeah, but you don't need the antibacterial stuff for that.
If you're going to reuse the mask, you'll want it have some kind of antibacterial property to avoid bacteria breed in there.
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people!
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@cheong said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla Yeah, but you don't need the antibacterial stuff for that.
If you're going to reuse the mask, you'll want it have some kind of antibacterial property to avoid bacteria breed in there.
You should discard the mask after one use, even if it's a proper medical mask.
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@admiral_p I can think of several potential causes. Like say, using int session IDs.
: "Italy's a small country with honest, working-man, population. Surely we don't have 60,000 companies. Nevermind 60,000 concurrently coming to the site?"
The rest of us:
You'd be surprised what can happen when you don't take the scale of traffic properly into account.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cheong said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla Yeah, but you don't need the antibacterial stuff for that.
If you're going to reuse the mask, you'll want it have some kind of antibacterial property to avoid bacteria breed in there.
You should discard the mask after one use, even if it's a proper medical mask.
If it's a disposable mask and you have spares.
But, you know, washable and disinfectable masks exist. Some of them you can even chuck in a steam-sterilizer.
Also, after this particular pandemia dies down a bit, I'm getting one of these:
If I have to go mingle with potentially lethal carriers for any reason, those flimsy surgical masks and lab-goggles are about the last thing I want on my face.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@cheong said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla Yeah, but you don't need the antibacterial stuff for that.
If you're going to reuse the mask, you'll want it have some kind of antibacterial property to avoid bacteria breed in there.
You should discard the mask after one use, even if it's a proper medical mask.
If it's a disposable mask and you have spares.
But, you know, washable and disinfectable masks exist. Some of them you can even chuck in a steam-sterilizer.
Also, after this particular pandemia dies down a bit, I'm getting one of these:
If I have to go mingle with potentially lethal carriers for any reason, those flimsy surgical masks and lab-goggles are about the last thing I want on my face.
I only have one without a "glass" bit.
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@Carnage You beard is shorter than I thought it would be...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage You beard is shorter than I thought it would be...
It's actually pretty short. I've got some seriously poor beard growing abilities. In return it seems I've got my mother's father's genes for hair, so I can look forward to never going bald.
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@Benjamin-Hall
Another example why peddling conspiracy theories on the internet can be legitimately dangerous. In the past few weeks, the crowd has been going crazy.
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@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The Trabant. I kind of doubt there was anything even not-bad for the environment in that car
Some joke went that they got the lowest fuel consumption of any car, because they don't work (so they don't use any fuel). You could adapt that for eco-friendliness.
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@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The Trabant. I kind of doubt there was anything even not-bad for the environment in that car
Some joke went that they got the lowest fuel consumption of any car, because they don't work (so they don't use any fuel). You could adapt that for eco-friendliness.
It could be towed around, not using any fuel itself.
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@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The Trabant. I kind of doubt there was anything even not-bad for the environment in that car
Some joke went that they got the lowest fuel consumption of any car, because they don't work (so they don't use any fuel). You could adapt that for eco-friendliness.
Doesn’t quite work, though, because they still built a fair number of them so even if those never drove anywhere, they had a significant environmental impact anyway.
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@cheong said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla Yeah, but you don't need the antibacterial stuff for that.
If you're going to reuse the mask, you'll want it have some kind of antibacterial property to avoid bacteria breed in there.
In case of reuse, why not go the whole way and apply a treatment which works properly to clean the mask?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Luhmann said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
the light symptoms stage.
It's a good thing I have a
ventilatorAPAP machine to help breath, right?I am becoming more grateful I have this now....
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@remi honestly, small two-stroke engine, so if it's anything like a 500, I'd expect it to be basically indestructible.
Italy has a glorious pedigree when it comes to small motorcycles on four wheels. Take the 126 for example, that supposedly is a Pole's dear pet:
🎵 Isn't she loooovely 🎵
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@remi honestly, small two-stroke engine, so if it's anything like a 500, I'd expect it to be basically indestructible.
Italy has a glorious pedigree when it comes to small motorcycles on four wheels. Take the 126 for example, that supposedly is a Pole's dear pet:
🎵 Isn't she loooovely 🎵
Depending on how much power you extract from the two stroke. But yes, they are much easier to produce and work on. With a high power output the reliability goes to hell pretty fast.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Take the 126 for example, that supposedly is a Pole's dear pet
It's not. We built a lot of them, but they are shit and everyone knows that.
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@MrL here in Italy they are endearingly shit. There is a certain value in extreme cheap, no frills cars. Wikipedia says that you call it "maluch" or something, as in "the little one".
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@admiral_p I think these comics here work even without a translation:
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@Rhywden Germans can suck our cock.
(and, one of the most iconic German cars, the VW Golf, was designed by Italians. That's one car that got worse and worse as it evolved).
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Take the 126 for example, that supposedly is a Pole's dear pet:
Only because there was LITERALLY NO OTHER VEHICLE YOU COULD BUY AT THE TIME. Other than this, it was universally regarded as the worst thing ever.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Germans can suck our cock.
that's 14 years ago ...
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@admiral_p You're sure you're not German?
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@Luhmann and it's just as awesome today as it was at the time.
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska we love our quirky cars.
I know...
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@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Only because there was LITERALLY NO OTHER VEHICLE YOU COULD BUY AT THE TIME. Other than this, it was universally regarded as the worst thing ever.
False. Counter-claim:
- The Tarpan 237D and 239D were 1980s Polish diesel trucks created in response to a petrol shortage in Poland. They were built by taking a Tarpan (a Polish pickup truck) and fitting it with a tractor engine instead of a dedicated diesel engine. The final product had 3 cylinders, 2.5 litres of engine displacement, 42 horsepower, and a 52 mph top speed. Loudness was also an issue; there is an urban legend of a guy who did three hours of highway driving in a diesel Tarpan and ending up half-deaf. Even the low fuel consumption (33 mpg) and being, well, a car in a Communist country weren't able to cover the flaws.
- The FSO Syrena started production in 1955, and at the time it wasn't a bad car aside from unreliable drive joints. But production continued until 1983, by which time the Syrena was hilariously outdated and badly built. By the 2000s, you could get a running one for as low as 50 PLZ, which is about $15 in today's money.
Source: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TheAllegedCar/RealLife
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@admiral_p said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
There is a certain value in extreme cheap, no frills cars.
True, but not every shit car acquires the same status. Around here you can occasionally see well kept Fiat 125p, or FSO Polonez*, but not 126.
Wikipedia says that you call it "maluch" or something, as in "the little one".
That's correct.
* I'm just looking out my window at a perfectly kept Polonez. Its owner clearly loves it.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Only because there was LITERALLY NO OTHER VEHICLE YOU COULD BUY AT THE TIME. Other than this, it was universally regarded as the worst thing ever.
False.
"Could", as in "in stock and not reserved for Party members". Before 126, the wait time for getting a car - ANY car - was multiple years. You pay full price now and get the car God knows when, and you can't even choose a paint color for it.
By the 2000s, you could get a running one for as low as 50 PLZ, which is about $15 in today's money.
PLZ is old money that was replaced by PLN in 1995. 1 PLZ = 0.0001 PLN = 0.000025 USD.