Foot shooting
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@boomzilla You got it.
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@boomzilla yes, a single compiled unit of whatever kind.
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@boomzilla said in Foot shooting:
@Magus said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla essentially. It's the stuff you're planning to build all at once. Since in visual studio, a project is typically a single assembly.
And an assembly is actually a dll or an exe?
As @Magus noted, it's any compiled lump, normally a .DLL (.so in UNIXland) or .EXE, but it could be a .LIB (.a in UNIXland) if you're building direct-to-native rather than direct-to-CLR. If another project in the solution is marked as depending on the .LIB project, the .LIB will be automatically added to the link line of the other project.
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@Magus said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla yes, a single compiled unit of whatever kind.
Not to be confused with C++ compilation unit.
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@Gąska meh, c++ is made of confusion anyway.
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@boomzilla said in Foot shooting:
@Magus so "Solutions" are projects that are made up of multiple "Projects?"
Sorry...I don't Visual Studio.
Yes (as noted below [edit: er, above]). You can also have those individual projects included in more than one solution. For instance, I have a "CommonLib.vcxproj". This is included in both my "Projects.sln" and "ObsoleteButDontWantToDeleteYet.sln" solutions.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla said in Foot shooting:
I don't think the level of stupidity has changed
30 years ago stupid people were not against vaccines because even total idiots knew what happens when children get polio.
30 years ago stupid people were not believers in flat Earth.
30 years ago stupid people were not paying $350 for vagina scented candles.
30 years ago stupid women were not buying expensive magic stones to put in their twats.
30 years ago stupid people were not investing in fake money (aka Bitcoin).
30 years ago stupid people were not drinking bleach or eating Tide pods on challenge.And even if they did, said, or believed in, stupid things, they weren't so brazen and righteous about it -- they knew shame, they could be corrected. Not so much today.
No.
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Someone quote my post...
@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla said in Foot shooting:
I don't think the level of stupidity has changed
30 years ago stupid people were not against vaccines because even total idiots knew what happens when children get polio.
30 years ago stupid people were not believers in flat Earth.
30 years ago stupid people were not paying $350 for vagina scented candles.
30 years ago stupid women were not buying expensive magic stones to put in their twats.I'm not going to pollute my Google history with these oddly specific searches, but it's enough to say magic stones have been around since forever, and never lost their popularity. Not even in the 80s. And folk medicine books contain a lot of... interesting things to do with your genitalia.
30 years ago stupid people were not investing in fake money (aka Bitcoin).
Stupid people putting huge money in scams also were around since forever. Bitcoin is actually one of the less stupid things people put money in.
30 years ago stupid people were not drinking bleach or eating Tide pods on challenge.
Ditto stupid dares. Even deadly stupid dares.
And even if they did, said, or believed in, stupid things, they weren't so brazen and righteous about it -- they knew shame, they could be corrected.
No comment.
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@Gąska said in Foot shooting:
Someone quote my post...
@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla said in Foot shooting:
I don't think the level of stupidity has changed
30 years ago stupid people were not against vaccines because even total idiots knew what happens when children get polio.
30 years ago stupid people were not believers in flat Earth.
30 years ago stupid people were not paying $350 for vagina scented candles.
30 years ago stupid women were not buying expensive magic stones to put in their twats.I'm not going to pollute my Google history with these oddly specific searches, but it's enough to say magic stones have been around since forever, and never lost their popularity. Not even in the 80s. And folk medicine books contain a lot of... interesting things to do with your genitalia.
30 years ago stupid people were not investing in fake money (aka Bitcoin).
Stupid people putting huge money in scams also were around since forever. Bitcoin is actually one of the less stupid things people put money in.
30 years ago stupid people were not drinking bleach or eating Tide pods on challenge.
Ditto stupid dares. Even deadly stupid dares.
And even if they did, said, or believed in, stupid things, they weren't so brazen and righteous about it -- they knew shame, they could be corrected.
No comment.
Indeed.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla said in Foot shooting:
I don't think the level of stupidity has changed
30 years ago stupid people were not against vaccines because even total idiots knew what happens when children get polio.
30 years ago stupid people were not believers in flat Earth.
30 years ago stupid people were not paying $350 for vagina scented candles.
30 years ago stupid women were not buying expensive magic stones to put in their twats.
30 years ago stupid people were not investing in fake money (aka Bitcoin).
30 years ago stupid people were not drinking bleach or eating Tide pods on challenge.And even if they did, said, or believed in, stupid things, they weren't so brazen and righteous about it -- they knew shame, they could be corrected. Not so much today.
40 years ago Isaac Asimov said
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
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@Watson said in Foot shooting:
40 years ago Isaac Asimov said
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
Sounds about right. "It doesn't matter how many scientists and engineers, skilled professionals who do this stuff for a living, say the Hyperloop is real. It doesn't matter how many government agencies, investors, and insurance companies, whose job it is to evaluate risk and sniff out fraud, take an in-depth look and say it's legitimate and feasible. Screw all those guys; that one person on YouTube made a bunch of ridiculously tortured analogies that say it'll never work, and that's good enough for me!"
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@Mason_Wheeler we were quoting smart people saying smart things, Wesley.
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@Gąska said in Foot shooting:
30 years ago stupid people were not paying $350 for vagina scented candles.
30 years ago stupid women were not buying expensive magic stones to put in their twats.I'm not going to pollute my Google history with these oddly specific searches, but it's enough to say magic stones have been around since forever, and never lost their popularity. Not even in the 80s. And folk medicine books contain a lot of... interesting things to do with your genitalia.
It glows in the dark! It must be healthy! Science!
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@Bulb said in Foot shooting:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Foot shooting:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in Foot shooting:
not the ones that happen to be lying around.
See Also: PHP
PHP only loads files that are referenced by their name. Not from a build script, because there ain't one, but referenced from somewhere nevertheless.
I was referencing more how a dropped php file is rather trivial to activate; it also doesn't depend on some hapless developer compiling something (without noticing!) and then deploying the result somewhere.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
And even if they did, said, or believed in, stupid things, they weren't so brazen and righteous about it -- they knew shame, they could be corrected. Not so much today.
See also: Flat Earthers.
Edit:
. I shouldn't have tried.
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@Bulb said in Foot shooting:
I am not sure any can tell which files can't be directly referenced this way and discards them.
You can't tell locally (because deep shenanigans are possible, and necessary sometimes for dependent resources) but the installation descriptor for published modules needs to list what files to put where or nobody else will get a working deployment. There are tools to help make that deployment descriptor, of course.
I'm not a giant fan of Python, but their module installation system does work. Provided you only want one version of a module at a time (per environment).
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@MZH said in Foot shooting:
It glows in the dark! It must be healthy! Science!
Will last a lifetime.
Lifetime may be foreshortened.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla Then your stupidity level meter is in dire need of repair and recalibration.
It's off the charts right now.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Foot shooting:
@Watson said in Foot shooting:
40 years ago Isaac Asimov said
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
Sounds about right. "It doesn't matter how many scientists and engineers, skilled professionals who do this stuff for a living, say the Hyperloop is real.
Those people immediately discredit themselves if they're saying that because...it's definitely not real yet.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla said in Foot shooting:
It's off the charts right now.
You aren't supposed to measure yourself with it.
It's clear you're not testing yourself.
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@Bulb said in Foot shooting:
--SNIP--
@masterX244179 said in Foot shooting:Mergetools might sometimes whack off a closing tag or mix up the balancing so the XML is syntactically broken.
Not if the whole entry is on one line. That's how everybody else does it.
@masterX244179 said in Foot shooting:
Also have fun when you get a mergeconflictmarker inside the csproj file.
Yeah, Visual Studio projects, and especially solutions, always required a lot of hand editing for various reasons anyway. It is Visual Studio being crap, not anything fundamental to listing files in project.
--SNIPresx files are another candidate for getting FUBAR'd by merges. (had that case a few times already)
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@masterX244179 Since
.res/.resxare windows-specific (ok, not in .нет Core, but I mostly work in C++) and most code I worked on was mostly intended to be multiplatform, I mostly avoided those.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
I remember the world 30 years ago -- it wasn't this bad so for the sake of my own sanity I'd prefer to believe that's only a temporary fluke. If that's the reason to say I am stupid so be it. At least I am an optimist.
@levicki said in DEAR FIREFOX:
Dude I wrote Z80 assembler in 1982 when neither Windows let alone Visual Studio were around to tell me how to do it, and I did just fine.
We had those things called books, which contained instruction set manuals, hardware schematics, chipset register layout, and we read those. We studied those books hard to find out how to squeeze the computer to the very last byte, the very last CPU clock. It was amazing what you could fit in 16K of RAM, let alone 48K, and later 512K with Amiga.
Everything we have today is an utter, wasteful, barely cobbled together, donkey shite and Microsoft and IBM are the ones to blame because every alternative to them was better thought out be it Atari, Amiga or dozens of other systems available at the time, all of them gone because of Microsoft and IBM playing all kind of dirty games to sell their shoddy hardware and software engineering.
So with great indignance I shit on your lousy future where large corporations are telling you what to think (and now also how to write code), and I proudly declare that I have a mind of my own. Maybe it's faulty by your millennial standards, but at least its mine and it doesn't need your overlords' permission to disagree with this enforced mediocrity.
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@remi said in Foot shooting:
@levicki said in Foot shooting:
your usual elitist shtick.
Remi.. no, no you didn't. You made a statement that can be so broadly interpreted as to make any statement seem like a fulfilling prophecy.
The truth of the matter is this:
In an environment where included files need to be listed, if the developer complains that their unlisted file is not included then YES they are complete idiots and should be removed from the process completely until such time as their idiocy can be fixed.
In an environment where those files do not need to be included, anyone trying to say they need to be is an idiot.
When an Environment changes in an unexpected manner to break the norms of the prior methodology, without considering the ramifications of how code has been written for the past few decades, the the one in charge of that environment are the idiots.
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@KattMan said in Foot shooting:
Remi.. no, no you didn't. You made a statement that can be so broadly interpreted as to make any statement seem like a fulfilling prophecy.
YMBNH.
The truth of the matter is this:
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
and/or
I'm certainly very, very tired of hearing about this.
Yes, I know, it's TDWTF and that's we do here, but I don't see the point of discussing anything with people who are not actually interested in discussing and instead just yell their opinion and counter every reply with an even louder yell of the same thing.
No, someone isn't a complete idiot just because they did a mistake (for which you don't even know the context and what lead them to that). Despite what some people here are saying, some people (probably not those who made that remark, though...) can learn from mistakes. And that includes not only those who made the mistake, but also those around them, who might improve things so that less people make mistakes. And if you're reply to that is whargablbling about race to the bottom and catering to idiots, well, refer to the exact bit of my previous reply that you quoted, and go fuck yourself (or the other way round, if you so prefer).
Now you can rant about other people all you want, that's what we all do here. But don't expect me to provide anything more than snark and trolling if you're unable to rise above a foaming-at-the-mouth black-and-white rant.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@remi said in Foot shooting:
but I don't see the point of discussing anything with people who are not actually interested in discussing and instead just yell their opinion and counter every reply with an even louder yell of the same thing.
What would you call your own posting of "I predict elitist shtick", aimed at pre-emptively shutting down any discussion no matter the arguments presented by the other side and then following up with "Called it" and "I am stuck in a loop"?
See above:
But don't expect me to provide anything more than snark and trolling if you're unable to rise above a foaming-at-the-mouth black-and-white rant.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@remi said in Foot shooting:
No, someone isn't a complete idiot just because they did a mistake
They are if they keep making the same mistake and whine about it instead of learning from it.
Who said they are?
Before we had a system where if you forgot to explicitly include a file the build would fail. Some people complained it is hard to maintain.
Now there is a system where you can accidentally introduce unwanted and untested code into your project (as shown by the OP), which can override the behavior of the application during runtime in subtle, hard to debug, ways.
Or maybe: before we had a system where if you forgot to explicitly include a file you can accidentally introduce weird effects in subtle, hard to debug, ways. Now there is a system where you have less things to worry about. Some people complain it is hard to maintain because copying a file might impact the project.
For one example (the OP) where the "new" system caused a bug, how many cases where the "old" system caused one? And don't say "zero", that's straight out lying.
But now some people are happy because they don't have to include files anymore, which was sooooooo haaaard to do.
And some people are not happy because they cannot copy a file and not have it built, which is sooooooo haaaard to avoid now.
To me that doesn't seem like improving things so that less people make mistakes (not to mention this new kind of mistake can have worse consequences than the old one) -- to me that looks like catering to idiots, by the idiots, and I am simply calling it out as it is.
And to me that looks like you're refusing to adapt whatever you like whatever the reasons, and that you'd rather not change a iota of your habits than allowing that different things are more adaptable to different situations -- to me that looks elitist and selfish, and I am simply calling it out as it is.
You can dislike it all you want, and claim it's a black-and-white view of the world, but there are facts and truth (white), fiction and lies (black), and plain old bullshit (shades of gray)
Good, at least we can agree on some things.
like your statement above that this will lead to some visible improvement when things are already worse then they were to begin with.
... but not on much. Unless you wanted to give me an example of "plain old bullshit". "things are already worse" is as subjective and bullshitty (or even a straight out lie) as it can get, and saying it in every post won't change that.
There is nothing "objective" in all of what you said, you pick one thing that you personally dislike and build huge strawmen to try and justify your personal choice rather than assuming it as such.
There is nothing wrong in you saying that you don't like this system and ranting about it. There is a lot of wrong in trying to present it as an objective and absolute truth, as you're repeatedly doing. Hence the snark and trolling.
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@dkf said in Foot shooting:
The only sane way to fix that is to have a strict rule that builds only count if they're not made on a developer's machine. Like that, if they want it to count they have to commit it (and not bind everything to the exact locations on their own system).
Yup - Pull Request that runs a compile and all Build Verification Tests [BVT]. Any failures an it can NOT be pushed to the branch
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@TheCPUWizard said in Foot shooting:
Pull Request that runs a compile and all Build Verification Tests [BVT]
Sounds like a case for Volkswagen:
Volkswagen C++ makes your tests pass when run on a CI server.
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@cvi said in Foot shooting:
Sounds like a case for Volkswagen:
Volkswagen C++ makes your tests pass when run on a CI server.
… it just aborts the tests, so it will be very obvious to any CI that actually reads the test report. One that does not is broken anyway.
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@cvi said in Foot shooting:
@TheCPUWizard said in Foot shooting:
Pull Request that runs a compile and all Build Verification Tests [BVT]
Sounds like a case for Volkswagen:
Volkswagen C++ makes your tests pass when run on a CI server.
Interesting.
It's not a complete toolkit though, for that it should have included a resume generator which you will need soon after.
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@Bulb said in Foot shooting:
One that does not [read test report] is broken.
… hm, but that probably applies to most of the TravisCI, Appveyor, CircleCI and similar builds. I don't remember seeing support for XUnit XML, TAP or Subunit parsing in those services.
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@Gąska said in Foot shooting:
@Magus said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla yes, a single compiled unit of whatever kind.
Not to be confused with C++ compilation unit.
also not to be confused with assembly
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
You said your cow-orkers were complaining all the time about Visual Studio not compiling stuff they forgot to include.
Do us a favour and stop listening to
. I didn't say that and there's still quite a stretch from what I actually said to "keep making the same mistake [...] instead of learning from it."But I'm not gonna get dragged into a word-by-word dissection of each and every post we wrote. Suffice it to say that once more you're presenting your personal opinion (e.g. "people who couldn't learn to work with the old system are idiots") as "truth", which is exactly what I'm saying is wrong with your posts so I'm not going to repeat again what I've said before, go back and read it yourself.
I'll stick to what might look like actual facts in your post.
Or maybe: before we had a system where if you forgot to explicitly include a file you can accidentally introduce weird effects in subtle, hard to debug, ways
Such as?
See the
abbrI intentionally added to preemptively cover this in my previous post.And you never wrote some code as a proof of concept, or several versions of the same function in different files, or a rough sketch of a workflow to finish later in a file named
todo.cppin the same folder until the time is right to work on that?Is it really that hard to name it
todo_cpp.txt, wrap your function in an#if 0or anything else? On one side you claim that adding a file to the list of files to build is trivial and that anyone who can't do it is an idiot, and on the other you claim that having to think for half-a-second about the name of a file is a strenuous and insurmountable effort. That's either disingenuous or moronic, I'll let you decide.And then it's the other people who are "idiot[s]" who "couldn't learn to work with [any] system"...
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In my opinion; you never keep dead code around, be it in comments, a function, in a class, an entire file or even folder of files. If you do, you deserve any nasal demons that will happen eventually.
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@TheCPUWizard said in Foot shooting:
Any failures an it can NOT be pushed to the branch
Apart from disagreements over what exactly is called a “branch”, I concur. If it doesn't build and pass tests, it needs to stay the hell away from prod. (Trouble may slip through anyway because exhaustive automated testing is tricky as heck, but no sense in letting obvious problems in where they don't belong.)
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@dkf said in Foot shooting:
If it doesn't build and pass tests, it needs to stay the hell away from prod.
Not just production, but any baseline that other team members work on top of. With git/hg/bzr/brz the proper workflow is to merge pull requests with a build that does the merge, runs build and tests and only pushes the result if they pass. If too
, at least build and test the pull request and prevent merging if that fails.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@remi said in Foot shooting:
I can't count how many times n00b stupid cow-orkers (but I repeat myself) have whined to me that they've added a file but it's not compiled, because they forgot to add it in the list of files.
"I can't count how many times" === "keep making the same mistake"
That's a reading comprehension fail, hard.
Hint: how many coworkers do you think are involved? Just one?
@remi said in Foot shooting:
See the abbr I intentionally added to preemptively cover this in my previous post.
So you can't (or won't, it doesn't really matter which) give a few examples
Again, reading comprehension fail. Or a plain old lie.
@remi said in Foot shooting:
Is it really that hard to name it
todo_cpp.txtIt's not, but then you don't get syntax coloring and completion in your editor of choice. Also, you can't compile it from the command line:
Then stop using a shitty IDE and compiler .
I'll probably keep taunting you for your stupidity, inability to read or narrow-mindedness (so it might not quite be EOF for me right now), but you've shown yet again how unable you are to actually discuss anything, so I'll try to stick to that only.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
To me that implies a number large enough to cover more than one person doing the same stupid thing several times.
Yes, exactly, there is more than one person doing the mistake. I don't see anything implying that those persons are each doing the mistake many times and not learning from it.
In other words, I read it just as you intended it to be read.
shhh, levicki, not so clearly, they'll know it's me talking!You claimed something without providing proof, and you got called out. Therefore, the only one lying is you.
"Again, reading comprehension fail. Or a plain old lie."
Not only did I give you an example, I've explicitly told you where it is (twice now, and thrice with this message).
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@remi said in Foot shooting:
That's a reading comprehension fail, hard.
Hint: how many coworkers do you think are involved? Just one?You said:
"I can't count how many times" which is another way of saying "too many to count" or "countless times" or "innumerable times" or "myriad times" which are all synonyms for "indefinitely large number of times".
But as he already pointed out, you're counting the wrong things and making incorrect assumptions.
To me that implies a number large enough to cover more than one person doing the same stupid thing several times.
Reality doesn't care about your imagination.
If that's a reading fail on my part, it's because you are either misusing words because you don't know better (which I doubt, because you are not stupid), or exaggerating on purpose to paint the old system as inadequate.
Just admit that you were wrong, dude.
In other words, I read it just as you intended it to be read.
Fair enough. I guess it's possible he wanted you to beclown yourself.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla I am arguing in good faith, he is taunting and trolling (his words), but I am wrong and he is right?
Yes. You interpreted something in a way contrary to how he intended it. It was admittedly ambiguous. Someone arguing in good faith should be able to accept that and move on instead of doing whatever this is that you're doing.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla He is wrong, not me.
I see. You know better what he is thinking. Sounds about right.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla He was arguing that the old system can result in the same kind of errors as the new one (and he did not post examples of that), but the new one is easier to use for n00bs.
Whether that matches what he actually thinks is anyone's guess.
All I know and all I claimed is that having to explicitly include stuff in the project is safer. Decades of use can attest to that.
People who can't cope with it are idiots. They will make mistakes in every system because when you think you've made something idiot-proof world just produces bigger idiot.
Stop catering to idiots. Don't make effort so they don't have to, because you are just participating in making bigger idiots. The only way to win is not to play.
Oh, I see. You weren't even paying attention to what he was saying about what you misread. I don't know if you ever made a sane argument about it being safer but your original reason was obviously batshit insane. If it's really a problem then all we've established is that you are the bigger idiot.
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I can't help reading this thread's title as if it's devoted to @showfeetguy
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@boomzilla So you did not even read what I was saying but everyone else is right and I am the bigger idiot? Sounds totally fair and unbiased.
Pot, meet kettle. You've yourself admitted to voluntarily not reading what I wrote and keep claiming that I didn't even write it. Sounds totally fair and unbiased.
So yes, on this specific point you very clearly and demonstrably (as shown just above) are the bigger idiot.
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@levicki said in Foot shooting:
@remi If you wanted me to read it, and if it was important part of your argument why did you hide it in abbr?
Because at the time I wrote it, it was just a sideline to the main discussion, not the main point of that post, so I didn't want to burden it. I also expected that if you really were interested in that sideline, you would actually go and read it (especially after I pointed it out to you) rather than blindly assuming whatever "truth" you liked. I obviously was wrong about that last part.
Also, I wanted to open the door to some possible fun about it afterwards, and oh boy has it delivered on that front, much more than I expected!
In other words, no U.
@error_bot giphy slap fight
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Holy shit, for once @error_bot has actually delivered (more or less) what I wanted it to!
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@remi There's
(slapfight:), but frankly that gif seems to be more applicable to the situation at hand.
