Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Gąska I'm just going to pre-emptively call it
fork_garbage
No, that's a garbage fork. Subtly different.
so look at it in a
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@Vixen a tree mirror?
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@error I'm sure there were dozens of burned in pixels from people who didn't want to display the default line of text
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@PleegWat said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
In that case I'd assume at each tick (starting the firing tick) they first apply gravity over the entire tick, then displace based on the new speed. An approach which instead displaces based on the average of the old and new speed would be independent of tick rate.
Hmm.
Friends don't let friends Euler forward...?
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@admiral_p said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
if you use Linux
to make music¹you are a fool and a masochistFTFY
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@Jaloopa jokes aside, I don't play games, I don't use specialist software (on my home computer), I don't need video acceleration on my browser because I still stick to torrents
and I must say, I never feel the need to run Windows. The few times I do, Wine is usually up to the job. These days I can't find my bearings on Windows anyway...
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@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
reaction time is around 200
Reaction time matters much less than human timing accuracy, which clocks in at 10ms, and is what suffers from control feedback lag. Shooters would be impossible to play with 200ms lag (button-to-screen). You just couldn't line up a shot to a moving target. Hell, driving a car at speed gets hard with around 50ms of lag.
If you're anticipating making a move, a high degree of accuracy is possible, yes. But what happens when something surprises you? Then you're back to 200.
What if you get a latency* spike of say 20-30ms during a critical moment? Then, accuracy of 10 ms plus an 8ms advantage gets rendered moot.
*I dislike the term lag spike because the idiotic masses have taken to using the word "lag" to describe framedrops in addition to latency. Amusingly, some of them have realized the ambiguities created by conflating latency and framerate, and settled on something worse than either: "FPS lag."
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@LaoC said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
I'm not an expert on DSP but I've read a few articles and understand a bit of Shannon/Nyquist, so I'll go out on a limb here and say that's a crock of shit.
You can feel free to school Doug Rogers, Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen on their egregious audio engineering design choices. Admittedly, most people don't need more than 16 bits at 44.1kHz. I myself only own the Gold edition of Hollywood Orchestra (and I don't even like using it because it's far more complex than Symphonic Orchestra in the most annoying ways. For example, many instruments use the mod wheel or expression for dynamics instead of velocity. This gives you easy crescendoes and decrescendoes, but it also means you basically have to rewrite everything if you're porting a track that was written for a virtual instrument that uses velocity for dynamics).
Also, keep in mind that this market also has audiophiles who pay through the nose for hand-wound-by-American-workers platinum audio cables.
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@admiral_p said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
The user is probably going to apply processing to the samples afterwards. (eg. compression, EQ, etc).
One of my friends is big into audio and gave me crap about the levels in one of my compositions. As if there's a microphone in front of every instrumentalist in an entire orchestra.
Then I took an online course on composition and learned that because people can effectively put a microphone in front of every instrumentalist, not only do they, but it's become the standard. A lot of modern tracks go through a bunch of post-processing that basically makes them near impossible to play live.
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@admiral_p said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Gąska I acknowledge that. In fact I did talk about a possible negligible advantage. I'm the kind of person that doesn't see much point in overclocking, let alone squeezing a 5% speed advantage.
The stock speed on my CPU is 3.3GHz. With a self-contained watercooler, it's been running happily at 4GHz since 2016. Even the UEFI had picked out an OC profile based on my hardware. What's the concern?
Its predecessor was running at 2.7 over a stock 2.5 at stock Vcore and that box lasted a good eight years. I tried turning that one up to 2.9, which required a voltage boost, but it would crash after about an hour, so back to 2.7 it was.
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@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
In terms of decreasing input lag, by going from 60 to 120 FPS, you save eight milliseconds. When your reaction time is around 200.
Eh
The rest of your post (and general point) is OK, but higher FPS isn't about optimizing for human reaction time to a random stimulus.
3024 fps is more than enough for that.FTFY
Where higher framerates shine is things like tracking moving targets. The smoother that is, the easier it is for your brain to deal with it.
Oh, I'm not disputing there's an increase in quality and fidelity. I'm more about quashing a religious belief one of my friends has that 120FPS imparts a significant advantage over 60FPS, when "git gud" would yield far better results. This same friend also tells me that certain game engines look prettier than others (meanwhile, artists and shader programmers collectively ask, "Am I a joke to you?"), and on seeing screenshots of my project, tells me that DX9 graphics aren't going to stick around for much longer when my project uses OpenGL rendering. It's like a trifecta of triggering material to a game developer.
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
my Windows computer has been running for 40 days straight
That's it, I am reporting you to Microsoft for cruelty towards operating systems.
Could be worse. He could have run certain old operating systems for more than 4294967.295 seconds.
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@Dragoon said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@topspin said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
I’d guess yeah, that’s what the uncertainty principle does. The more precise (like a delta peak) one information gets, the more imprecise (smeared out) the other.
Pfft, we beat that years ago:
Scientists Beat the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
Scientists have managed to measure the position of a particle more accurately than predicted by Heisenberg in 1927.
When will they solve the Relationship Uncertainty Principle? That is, that asking someone about the status of a relationship changes the status of the relationship? The tyranny of this principle has been a thorn in my side for a long time.
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@powerlord said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
And I believe the default for the Source engine was 20 for quite a while. 60Hz seems like a waste on a Counter-Strike game, when there were far more twitchy Half-Life mods that consisted of players flying through the air that I played in college which might have benefited far more.
I don't think that's right. Right now, the values are:
- Half-Life 2: Deathmatch, Day of Defeat: Source, Team Fortress 2: locked at 66 server fps
- These used to be adjustable, but Valve realized that it was fucking with door animations
- Left 4 Dead 1 and Left 4 Dead 2: locked at 33 server fps
- Counter-Strike: Source and Counter-Strike: GO: adjustable, defaulting to 64 server fps
- ...or at least I'm assuming CS:S is adjustable; it might be locked to 66 server fps because it shares an engine version with HL2:DM and the like
Any other Valve games I have no idea about because they don't have dedicated servers.
Seems we're both correct.
Clients usually have only a limited amount of available bandwidth. In the worst case, players with a modem connection can't receive more than 5 to 7 KB/sec. If the server tried to send them updates with a higher data rate, packet loss would be unavoidable. Therefore, the client has to tell the server its incoming bandwidth capacity by setting the console variable rate (in bytes/second). This is the most important network variable for clients and it has to be set correctly for an optimal gameplay experience. The client can request a certain snapshot rate by changing cl_updaterate (default 20), but the server will never send more updates than simulated ticks or exceed the requested client rate limit. Server admins can limit data rate values requested by clients with sv_minrate and sv_maxrate (both in bytes/second). Also the snapshot rate can be restricted with sv_minupdaterate and sv_maxupdaterate (both in snapshots/second).
By default, the client receives about 20 snapshot per second.
- Half-Life 2: Deathmatch, Day of Defeat: Source, Team Fortress 2: locked at 66 server fps
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
No, I'm counting rolling average FPS.
How do you figure? On one of my machines, I barely scrape 60FPS and I have vsync enabled, and I don't see 30FPS displayed in the readout. What I do see reported is 55ish.
As always. But according to the numbers you cited, the top of your range is actually the bottom of the bottom.
I would be leery of high tick rates if replication is a lot more intense than just position, velocity, orientation, etc., or if the level has 100+ players along with tens or hundreds of rigid bodies or other dynamic entities. All (or most of) that data has to be broadcast to every single player, every tick. I use around 30Hz in my project and it seems to behave nicely, but I also haven't done hard stress testing on it yet. In theory, if it works well enough at 30, it can scale to twice of what 60Hz would allow.
Have you ever seen high-level CSGO match? Rounds are decided in split second based on who flicks one frame faster.
HURR DURR I PUSH BOOTON FASTER THAN OTHER GUY! I WIN!
Now do it at 50 yards, while you and your opponent are flying through the air laterally, and constantly changing directions. There are reasons why I might rate a game like Serious Sam an 8 or 9 on a scale of 1-10, but Counter-Strike earns a measly 1.6.
Well, you started talking about Korean games, so I assumed all you're saying is referring to that.
I do tend to like obscure games, yes. But obscure games are not all I like.
Also, 50-100 isn't really M in my book.
That's fair. It's on the edge of what's possible if you want a dynamic as opposed to kinematic world. Of course, 50-100 is "massive" if you're used to multiplayer games that had a cap of 8 players à la Starcraft or Diablo 2.
Also, dogfighting doesn't need that much precision either. Retroactively applying bullets shot half a second earlier would go totally unnoticed - but doing the same in close quarters FPS (and all FPS are potentially close quarters) will make the player base hate your guts.
Depends on whether bullets and missiles are hitscan or projectiles. It also gets particularly fun if the game designer implements "client-side prediction" as "client authoritative position," such that laggers actually gain an advantage by lagging.
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@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Vixen said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
if it's completely failed to mine a single coin because it's a CPU miner on a low spec celeron
Assuming you started in 2009 back when Bitcoin was still new, you still probably have nothing
probably, but i'm not keen on just nuking the box because i might have one maybe two..... low probablility. very low. but i might.
and stupid me encrypted the drive so i gotta remember my password in order to get at it...
Seems like an awful lot of effort for a highly volatile commodity whose most common use is for buying drugs.
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
No, I'm counting rolling average FPS.
How do you figure? On one of my machines, I barely scrape 60FPS and I have vsync enabled, and I don't see 30FPS displayed in the readout. What I do see reported is 55ish.
I'm using FRAPS set to report every second the average of the last second. How do you measure? And how often does it actually drop below 60FPS for you? I was talking about the situation where the drops are happening all the time because my computer is not even barely scraping, but not managing to achieve it consistently at all.
Have you ever seen high-level CSGO match? Rounds are decided in split second based on who flicks one frame faster.
HURR DURR I PUSH BOOTON FASTER THAN OTHER GUY! I WIN!
Now do it at 50 yards, while you and your opponent are flying through the air laterally, and constantly changing directions. There are reasons why I might rate a game like Serious Sam an 8 or 9 on a scale of 1-10, but Counter-Strike earns a measly 1.6.
I thought we were talking about appropriateness of particular technical solutions applied to particular types of games, not rating the games themselves?
And in all honesty, a team deathmatch with zero teamwork opportunities sounds like a much more boring gameplay than a tactical shooter where every team member has to do a good job and coordinate with everyone else on the team to succeed.
Also, dogfighting doesn't need that much precision either. Retroactively applying bullets shot half a second earlier would go totally unnoticed - but doing the same in close quarters FPS (and all FPS are potentially close quarters) will make the player base hate your guts.
Depends on whether bullets and missiles are hitscan or projectiles.
Not really - physical projectiles can be fired and moved retroactively too.
It also gets particularly fun if the game designer implements "client-side prediction" as "client authoritative position," such that laggers actually gain an advantage by lagging.
Yeah, except it isn't a problem in case of airplanes because the victim doesn't even see the shooter most of the time, and even when they do, it's so far away all detail is lost.
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
I'm using FRAPS set to report every second the average of the last second. How do you measure?
Renderer self-reported stats?
And how often does it actually drop below 60FPS for you?
Anytime I look in a direction where there are a lot more visible actors/polygons than usual.
I was talking about the situation where the drops are happening all the time because my computer is not even barely scraping, but not managing to achieve it consistently at all.
Okay, that's a bit different, then.
I thought we were talking about appropriateness of particular technical solutions applied to particular types of games, not rating the games themselves?
Maybe. If the game comes down to raw reaction time such that tactics, strategy and player skill don't matter, I would have concerns about the legitimacy and longevity of said game. Of course, people seem to like League of Legends for some reason, so quality isn't a hard requirement.
And in all honesty, a team deathmatch with zero teamwork opportunities sounds like a much more boring gameplay than a tactical shooter where every team member has to do a good job and coordinate with everyone else on the team to succeed.
If there's anything that two decades of online gaming has taught me, it's that multiplayer games are fundamentally about herding cats, and then being angry at your teammates (but not yourself) when they inevitably fail you. Better to play a game where one good player can carry a bad team than one where teamwork is forced. Not everyone wants the politics or drama of a guild/clan/etc. as a prerequisite for serious play. There's also something quite appealing about your failures being no one's fault but your own.
Yeah, except it isn't a problem in case of airplanes because the victim doesn't even see the shooter most of the time, and even when they do, it's so far away all detail is lost.
Since a video is worth a thousand words, here's an example of what I'm talking about (forthcoming megathread on this game when I have the time):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7OVUXM5m7s
The player in this video is playing as a bomber class, which has a couple abilities that launch missiles as clusters of dumb rockets, but with greatly increased damage. Missiles have an explosion radius, which is normally very small, but the abilities (and equipment) give bonuses to that explosion radius such that hits can get triggered from increasingly large distances. Add in lag and that silliness gets even more silly.
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
I'm using FRAPS set to report every second the average of the last second. How do you measure?
Renderer self-reported stats?
You couldn't possibly pick worse.
I thought we were talking about appropriateness of particular technical solutions applied to particular types of games, not rating the games themselves?
Maybe. If the game comes down to raw reaction time such that tactics, strategy and player skill don't matter, I would have concerns about the legitimacy and longevity of said game.
CS:GO has a mix of both. Twitch reflexes matter a lot more than in most other games, but even the best player won't get anywhere without a decent team that can actually cover each other's back.
Of course, people seem to like League of Legends for some reason, so quality isn't a hard requirement.
Yeah, that...
And in all honesty, a team deathmatch with zero teamwork opportunities sounds like a much more boring gameplay than a tactical shooter where every team member has to do a good job and coordinate with everyone else on the team to succeed.
If there's anything that two decades of online gaming has taught me, it's that multiplayer games are fundamentally about herding cats, and then being angry at your teammates (but not yourself) when they inevitably fail you.
You don't have many real life friends to play online with, do you.
Yeah, except it isn't a problem in case of airplanes because the victim doesn't even see the shooter most of the time, and even when they do, it's so far away all detail is lost.
Since a video is worth a thousand words, here's an example of what I'm talking about (forthcoming megathread on this game when I have the time):
Oh, okay. I thought you're talking about the half-simulator WW2 games that have been all the rage recently.
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@LaoC said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
I'm not an expert on DSP but I've read a few articles and understand a bit of Shannon/Nyquist, so I'll go out on a limb here and say that's a crock of shit.
You can feel free to school Doug Rogers, Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen on their egregious audio engineering design choices. Admittedly, most people don't need more than 16 bits at 44.1kHz.
My point is that they don't have significnatly more, even if it says so on the tin.
Also, keep in mind that this market also has audiophiles who pay through the nose for hand-wound-by-American-workers platinum audio cables.
Yup, that's the part that matters (it's oxygen-free copper doped with positively ionized Neil Young DNA in the Large Hardon Collider and hand-spun by Tibetan virgins of course, but I get the point), so I'll rather congratulate the guys on their successful marketing.
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@powerlord said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Left 4 Dead 1 and Left 4 Dead 2: locked at 33 server fps
That's not FPS you have in mind.
In-game (client) FPS easily goes up to 300.
On dedicated server you can set
fps_maxto whatever the hardware can handle.On the other hand, the tickrate on a dedicated server is locked to 30, but you can use Tickrate Enabler to change that to say 100 if you host your own server and then you can also bump
sv_maxupdaterateandsv_maxcmdrateto 100.The trouble with that this will affect game physics in some custom maps and make them impossible to play (for example Questionable Ethics 2 where you need to use grenade launcher to hit buttons that won't work).
The reason the tickrate is now locked on most of Valve's games is because it fucks with things. Word from Valve themselves was the tickrate got locked in the Source 2009 branch (which is HL2:DM, DoD:S, CS:S, and TF2) because it completely fucked up the door open and shut speeds in Team Fortress 2. Given TF2's propensity to use doors to section off different areas of the map, it's incredibly important that they finish opening before players reach them.
L4D and L4D2 are a different story. The tickrate was locked there because the game would otherwise start lagging during the horde events because of the sheer number of zombie enemies running around the map.
Well... they tried changing it in L4D2, but you already commented about how they fucked things up with the RDTSC detection, so they eventually changed it back to locked.
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24 fps
Watching movies isn't affected that much by reaction time. It doesn't make that much difference if you start booing 8 ms later at the end of Rise of Skywalker.
But, also somewhat interestingly, the threshold for perceiving changing images as moving can be ridiculously low. I've heard some cheap cartoons from could get away with 4-6 fps.
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@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
24 fps
Watching movies isn't affected that much by reaction time. It doesn't make that much difference if you start booing 8 ms later at the end of Rise of Skywalker.
But, also somewhat interestingly, the threshold for perceiving changing images as moving can be ridiculously low. I've heard some cheap cartoons from could get away with 4-6 fps.
Aren't flipbooks in that range?
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@levicki I can't decide if I'm amazed or disappointed in year 2019 that Samsung Edge thing and notch brainworms didn't spread to touchscreen flaptops...
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@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
which becomes impractical once you go over 60-70 ms network latency and for erratically moving targets
One of the great things about Source is that it has amazing lag compensation that makes the game fairly playable even with 100ms latency. It's not great, but it's still playable.
@levicki said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Also, whoever said here that 120 Hz doesn't matter -- try playing on a G-Sync 144 Hz monitor. I did, and it was a totally different, better, experience. You can feel there is less (input to display) lag and you can play better because everything you does feels instantaneous.
What's the word for audiophile but for visuals?
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@Gąska there are plenty of opportunities for team play in a quakelike, but the problem is that the increased manual skill ceiling is still seen as the biggest barrier to entry, so people neglect to expand on available gametypes and the like. I'm hoping the warfork team will make some strides there, since they seem pretty hopeful at the moment.
Their cs-like bomb and diffuse gametype, and even moreso the class-based variant, ctf and it's class based variant, and even stuff like clan arena mode are already pretty great team modes - capturing flags when one person knows how to go 10x walking speed isn't always the greatest, though. If they'd implement some payload maps, battle Royale, and maybe something like unreal tournament's onslaught/warfare mode, they'd immediately have the most team oriented arena shooter. And it wouldn't be hard: my guess is someone's put in a pr for battle Royale by now already.
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
You couldn't possibly pick worse.
Why? The renderer has access to the same timing APIs as everything else. It's not hard to measure time between frames and then take the rolling average every couple seconds or so.
You don't have many real life friends to play online with, do you.
I have more real-life friends than I have time or energy, but we all have different tastes in which games we like. Even getting a group of 5 to play the same game at once is tricky.
Once you get up to 40, it is literal cat herding. Not that taking orders for six hours at a time is a great gaming experience to begin with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04
Oh, okay. I thought you're talking about the half-simulator WW2 games that have been all the rage recently.
I seem to remember Penny Arcade calling for an end to the then-oversaturated WW2 sim genre at least fifteen years ago. Seems like developers still haven't learned their lesson.
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@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
24 fps
Watching movies isn't affected that much by reaction time. It doesn't make that much difference if you start booing 8 ms later at the end of Rise of Skywalker.
Booing over what part? There are so many to choose from! Or just generic booing at the result of J.J. having been painted into a corner by Rian and... J.J.?
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
You couldn't possibly pick worse.
Why? The renderer has access to the same timing APIs as everything else.
It has access to more timing APIs than everything else. Some of which don't accurately reflect what you want. For example, FPS might be calculated as 1/(frame render time), which would completely conceal any impact from having v-sync. A lot of games do it this way, because that information is more useful for the developers than actual real physical FPS - but for users it's the other way around.
You don't have many real life friends to play online with, do you.
I have more real-life friends than I have time or energy, but we all have different tastes in which games we like. Even getting a group of 5 to play the same game at once is tricky.
So, no.
Not that taking orders for six hours at a time is a great gaming experience to begin with.
6 HOURS!? What are you playing, Arma 3?
Oh, okay. I thought you're talking about the half-simulator WW2 games that have been all the rage recently.
I seem to remember Penny Arcade calling for an end to the then-oversaturated WW2 sim genre at least fifteen years ago. Seems like developers still haven't learned their lesson.
Or looking at their financial results, they did learn the lesson: good setting is good in any year, provided there aren't too many similar games released at the same time.
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@Groaner I enjoyed that movie. Not because it was anything that could be described critically as good, and not because I was laughing at the mess it was: I was simply entertained. There was some good and some bad in an overall silly movie. Perhaps the brand deserves more, though given what Lucas's original plan was, I doubt it. The only thing I'm really disappointed about is that I wasn't able to figure out who voiced JJ's self insert character in the Japanese release.
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
It has access to more timing APIs than everything else. Some of which don't accurately reflect what you want. For example, FPS might be calculated as 1/(frame render time), which would completely conceal any impact from having v-sync. A lot of games do it this way, because that information is more useful for the developers than actual real physical FPS - but for users it's the other way around.
If you measure elapsed time at the same spot in the game loop, you will get the delta time for one whole frame. How would that not be impacted by vsync? If the time is consistently 16.67ms, it's pretty obvious, especially if you benchmark individual sections of the game loop and see that
renderFrame()always seems to take the remainder of 16.67ms as compared to the other sections. Some games might take the average over a second or two to smooth things out a bit. I won't dispute that some developers might do things differently for reasons good or bad.6 HOURS!? What are you playing, Arma 3?
No, classic WoW circa 2006. Many of the endgame instances turned into afternoon-long or evening-long commitments, especially when not everyone is geared optimally or in the know of how to run each boss.
Or looking at their financial results, they did learn the lesson: good setting is good in any year, provided there aren't too many similar games released at the same time.
Well, the AAA side of the industry is all about safe bets and has been this way for at least a decade.
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@Magus said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner I enjoyed that movie. Not because it was anything that could be described critically as good, and not because I was laughing at the mess it was: I was simply entertained. There was some good and some bad in an overall silly movie. Perhaps the brand deserves more, though given what Lucas's original plan was, I doubt it. The only thing I'm really disappointed about is that I wasn't able to figure out who voiced JJ's self insert character in the Japanese release.
I thought it was okay. Not great, not terrible, but okay. But a lot of things felt forced, and to some extent this was unavoidable because of the trajectory that 7 and 8 set up.
Entertaining, perhaps, but I still say there are only six Star Wars movies. Although I've become more open in recent years to making that 7, as if you ignore Jar Jar and young Anakin, Phantom Menace has some of the best lightsaber battles in the franchise.
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
It has access to more timing APIs than everything else. Some of which don't accurately reflect what you want. For example, FPS might be calculated as 1/(frame render time), which would completely conceal any impact from having v-sync. A lot of games do it this way, because that information is more useful for the developers than actual real physical FPS - but for users it's the other way around.
If you measure elapsed time at the same spot in the game loop, you will get the delta time for one whole frame. How would that not be impacted by vsync?
You can do two measurements: at the beginning and at the end of the game loop just before showing image. The difference is the frame render time ignoring v-sync.
6 HOURS!? What are you playing, Arma 3?
No, classic WoW circa 2006. Many of the endgame instances turned into afternoon-long or evening-long commitments, especially when not everyone is geared optimally or in the know of how to run each boss.
I see. No wonder you have trouble gathering people if that's your average game session.
Or looking at their financial results, they did learn the lesson: good setting is good in any year, provided there aren't too many similar games released at the same time.
Well, the AAA side of the industry is all about safe bets and has been this way for at least a decade.
And a safe bet isn't necessarily a bad choice.
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Not that taking orders for six hours at a time is a great gaming experience to begin with.
6 HOURS!? What are you playing, Arma 3?
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@levicki I can't decide if I'm amazed or disappointed in year 2019 that Samsung Edge thing and notch brainworms didn't spread to touchscreen flaptops...
SHUT UP!!!
Don't give someone ideas...
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
reaction time is around 200
Reaction time matters much less than human timing accuracy, which clocks in at 10ms, and is what suffers from control feedback lag. Shooters would be impossible to play with 200ms lag (button-to-screen). You just couldn't line up a shot to a moving target. Hell, driving a car at speed gets hard with around 50ms of lag.
If you're anticipating making a move, a high degree of accuracy is possible, yes.
Moving the mouse on top of the enemy character's head and clicking is an anticipated move, yes. With mouse acceleration disabled, this action does not need visual feedback, other than the purple mist; the shot is usually placed by reflexively calculating the needed mouse movement from the relative positions of the pointer/sights and the target.
...Unless your game has terrible mouse-to-screen lag. In this case, the sights end up where the target had been, missing the shot.But what happens when something surprises you? Then you're back to 200.
Reacting to surprises is one thing. Aiming is another. Or driving, or flying, or any activity where one controls and interacts with moving objects.
What if you get a latency* spike of say 20-30ms during a critical moment? Then, accuracy of 10 ms plus an 8ms advantage gets rendered moot.
I assume this is what latency-compensation algorithms are for. Such spikes, uncompensated, lead to lower game sales.
I don't play online games, so I haven't seen latency spikes in years.
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@LaoC said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
If you have an input signal with 1 V of amplitude, a 16-bit ADC has to be precise to doable¹ 15 µV. To get 24 usable bits it would have to be <60 nV, which is completely ridiculous
True, but only if you're trying to do the whole 24 bits with one microphone and amp-chain. Try 2 chains side-by-side, with different sensitivity, synchronized so that you can switch between them on a sample-by-sample basis in post-production.
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@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@LaoC said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
If you have an input signal with 1 V of amplitude, a 16-bit ADC has to be precise to doable¹ 15 µV. To get 24 usable bits it would have to be <60 nV, which is completely ridiculous
True, but only if you're trying to do the whole 24 bits with one microphone and amp-chain. Try 2 chains side-by-side, with different sensitivity, synchronized so that you can switch between them on a sample-by-sample basis in post-production.
I've never heard of that one. How would you decide which sample to use?
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
24 fps
Watching movies isn't affected that much by reaction time. It doesn't make that much difference if you start booing 8 ms later at the end of Rise of Skywalker.
Booing over what part? There are so many to choose from! Or just generic booing at the result of J.J. having been painted into a corner by Rian and... J.J.?
The particular part I meant was the very last line, just before the credits. I've only seen that part of the movie and it confirmed my decision to avoid it.
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Although I've become more open in recent years to making that 7,
Prequel trilogy, original trilogy, and Rogue One
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@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Although I've become more open in recent years to making that 7,
Prequel trilogy, original trilogy, and Rogue One
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@Gąska said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
You can do two measurements: at the beginning and at the end of the game loop just before showing image. The difference is the frame render time ignoring v-sync.
Oh. Well, then I would agree with you that that's wrong and said developers should feel bad. The easiest way to get render time without vsync is... to disable vsync.
I see. No wonder you have trouble gathering people if that's your average game session.
Even the "easy" level 60 instances like Scholomance, UBRS, LBRS, etc. were a pain to run with PUGs. I forget which, but there was one boss in Scholomance that popped gates around his arena so you had one shot to kill him, or else you had to reset the whole instance.
WoW was one of those games where I eagerly awaited my subscription running out.
And a safe bet isn't necessarily a bad choice.
From the standpoint of making a profit, yes.
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@acrow said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Moving the mouse on top of the enemy character's head and clicking is an anticipated move, yes. With mouse acceleration disabled, this action does not need visual feedback, other than the purple mist; the shot is usually placed by reflexively calculating the needed mouse movement from the relative positions of the pointer/sights and the target.
...Unless your game has terrible mouse-to-screen lag. In this case, the sights end up where the target had been, missing the shot.Plus lead time for movement, if it's projectile instead of hitscan. And, naturally, lead time is going to be a function of latency. I've played shooters that do both, and it really screws with you to play one that does it one way and then play another.
I assume this is what latency-compensation algorithms are for. Such spikes, uncompensated, lead to lower game sales.
You can never get it 100%. Unless the game is client-authoritative garbage, what you see on your end is a creative illusion built from dead reckoning of old positional data, carefully tuned with heuristics applied to arrive at something that looks "good enough." I say this as someone who's been down that particular road.
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@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
24 fps
Watching movies isn't affected that much by reaction time. It doesn't make that much difference if you start booing 8 ms later at the end of Rise of Skywalker.
Booing over what part? There are so many to choose from! Or just generic booing at the result of J.J. having been painted into a corner by Rian and... J.J.?
The particular part I meant was the very last line, just before the credits. I've only seen that part of the movie and it confirmed my decision to avoid it.
My only gripe with that part was that there were two force ghosts present when there ought to have been three. The final line is a very small insult and injury as compared to the rest of the film.
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@hungrier said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
Although I've become more open in recent years to making that 7,
Prequel trilogy, original trilogy, and Rogue One
You are correct, sir.
Even the cheesy prequel meme lines start to look like fucking Shakespeare in comparison - not that the original trilogy didn't have its own copious quantities of cheesy lines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09IBPbv8KgI
I'm only able to understand two languages here (more if you count cognate cheating), but the best part about this is that if you don't know the language, everything looks so dramatic and serious and sounds so cool, even if what's said in each version is more or less a word-for-word translation of the original dialogue.
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@Groaner Re-watching that scene made me realize that it's basically the "What is a man?" scene from SOTN
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@Groaner said in Linux locks and a kinder, gentler Linus:
And a safe bet isn't necessarily a bad choice.
From the standpoint of making a profit, yes.
From the standpoint of making a good game too. Spider-Man PS4 couldn't possibly be a safer bet and yet it's one of the best games of 2018.
