UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale
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So TIL Microsoft can't stop Teams from making itself auto-start every launch because the option to do otherwise is
NotImplemented
:How to Prevent Teams from Auto-Launch
Hi guys,I plan to deploy Teams in my company, and there's a headache. I don't want Teams auto launches when system starts, and when I install it, I use..
How does Teams get new features implemented, then? Teams, just like PowerApp, runs on LEAN development so naturally to get anything implemented you need to put it in UserVoice/Dreamland/whatever until it gets enough traction (read: votes) to be picked up by the dev team:
86 votes, when the top items are 10k+ votes... Yeah, it's not gonna be implemented for the foreseeable future.
I never understand why would anyone think turning features and roadmaps into a public Battle Royale is even a good idea in the first place. The distinction between a bug and a FR is unclear and entirely dependent on whoever has the final say. Application crashes on your PC! Is it a bug? What if I told you application crashing on your PC is intended behaviour, and so requesting a change would be a FR and not a bugfix? Nobody knows what are bugs and what are FRs because they're all grouped under a single term ("idea" or whatever). It also implies that the urgency of any change is proportional to only the quantity of users (who bothers to register an account to participate in the battle royale site by making their vote) desiring it, which is... absurd? By this metric blocking issues for a smaller group of people is less important than minor improvements for bigger groups of people. So you better hope you aren't those unlucky users who get stuck in the mud, because most likely, It Is Just You
and nobody will save you.Meanwhile, if some product Battle Royale-s the features to be implemented to their product, you can be assure that they don't actually have a concrete roadmap, or what their product should be. It is basically like how JS gets new features via proposals, which means the features have no consistency or cohesion, and they are highly dependent on whatever trends the community is obsessing at at any given point, except it's even worse because at least for JS proposals you need to wait for vendors to implement said features. And we all know how JS proposals suck, so battle royale mode is going to suck even more, with the dev team chasing the top ideas by implementing the most bare bone feature to count as satisfying said ideas.
And holy cow, the list already has 20k+ items? Is it trying to compete with the number of open issues on Minecraft's bug tracker? By extension, you can bet that de-duplication is mostly likely non-existent unlike typical issue trackers, which means even harder to actually measure the votes of various features.
I'm not sure what kind of development is the worse kind of development: discourse-driven development (complete chaos and lack of organization, everything automatically closed after a few days of inactivity), github issue-driven development (depends on development whim and attention-grabbing to get bugs fixed, bumps after bumps to refresh attention), or UserVoice-driven development (aka battle royales). Neither of them is productive, and as users encountering issues (I can find lots of issues and raise lots of them) all of them are very frustrating.
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@_P_ At that point they can just go full bug-driven-design.
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@Carnage said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
bug-driven-design
Do you mean "design aiming to address the most talked-about bugs", or "design aiming to maximize the number of bugs"?
Filed under: Questions @Tsaukpaetra will answer "Yes." to
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@Zerosquare said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Carnage said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
bug-driven-design
Do you mean "design aiming to address the most talked-about bugs", or "design aiming to maximize the number of bugs"?
Filed under: Questions @Tsaukpaetra will answer "Yes." to
Yes?
But in all seriousness, the development method is meant to deal with shitty or no requirements, and you start with getting a webpage address (for instance), and direct your clients there. When it doesn't work (because there is no server) you put up a default server. Then they file a bug report about the page missing, so you build the first page, and so on.
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@Zerosquare said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Carnage said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
bug-driven-design
Do you mean "design aiming to address the most talked-about bugs", or "design aiming to maximize the number of bugs"?
Filed under: Questions @Tsaukpaetra will answer "Yes." to
No.
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@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
So TIL Microsoft can't stop Teams from making itself auto-start every launch because the option to do otherwise is
NotImplemented :
Hi guys,I plan to deploy Teams in my company, and there's a headache. I don't want Teams auto launches when system starts, and when I install it, I use..
I wonder how much of that is caused by Windows 10's charming habit of "bookmarking" applications when you use the Start menu command to shut it down. (Hint, guys: click the desktop to give it focus, press Alt+F4 ==> it shuts down in "classic" mode that doesn't bookmark applications.)
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
I wonder how much of that is caused by Windows 10's charming habit of "bookmarking" applications when you use the Start menu command to shut it down. (Hint, guys: click the desktop to give it focus, press Alt+F4 ==> it shuts down in "classic" mode that doesn't bookmark applications.)
Oh right, that reminds me another "useful" feature of Teams: when you click the close button on Teams it removes the window from the task bar but still stays along the task bar icons list, which is normal. However, if you switch tabs with Alt+Tab it's still in the list of tabs, and you can actually choose Teams from there and resurrect the window again.
I've never seen any other app does it this way nor do I think it's reasonable behaviour.
Also, all of these are not just happening on Windows 10, they behave the same on Windows 7 and Windows Server 2016 too.
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@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
I wonder how much of that is caused by Windows 10's charming habit of "bookmarking" applications when you use the Start menu command to shut it down. (Hint, guys: click the desktop to give it focus, press Alt+F4 ==> it shuts down in "classic" mode that doesn't bookmark applications.)
Oh right, that reminds me another "useful" feature of Teams: when you click the close button on Teams it removes the window from the task bar but still stays along the task bar icons list, which is normal. However, if you switch tabs with Alt+Tab it's still in the list of tabs, and you can actually choose Teams from there and resurrect the window again.
I've never seen any other app does it this way nor do I think it's reasonable behaviour.
Also, all of these are not just happening on Windows 10, they behave the same on Windows 7 and Windows Server 2016 too.
E_NO_REPRO (on Windows 10, with Teams installed last week)
But that sounds like the difference between closing a window and hiding a window. Which, for anyone else, would be a bug.
...for anyone but these people...
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@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
By this metric blocking issues for a smaller group of people is less important than minor improvements for bigger groups of people. So you better hope you aren't those unlucky users who get stuck in the mud, because most likely, It Is Just You and nobody will save you.
Welcome to the tyranny of the majority; they are just following the current global trend of "fuck the minority", as shown, e. g., in Boris Johnson's claim that a barely 50% majority is "the will of the people", people clamoring for strictly proportional representation, and the oh-so-endearing "piss off you
" so prevalent on this very forum here.(hyperbole for
effect but this is something that bugs me quite a bit generally)
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@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
Oh right, that reminds me another "useful" feature of Teams: when you click the close button on Teams it removes the window from the task bar but still stays along the task bar icons list, which is normal. However, if you switch tabs with Alt+Tab it's still in the list of tabs, and you can actually choose Teams from there and resurrect the window again.
Oh great, a new variation of the "I'm sure you didn't actually mean for me to close" brain worm!
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
click the desktop to give it focus
or press CTRL+D to do the same without taking your hands off the keyboard.
useful shortcut to know.
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Maybe I'm missing something
Literally the first setting below the theme
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@hungrier Have you read the original post? This requires you to be logged in to disable auto-start. Teams is already configured to auto-start during installation. And even after you specified no auto-start during installation (which isn't exposed anywhere except in the command line arguments in the installer), it still enables auto-start again after application launch, unless you disable that in the configuration after logging in, which is a massive
.And their rationale?
To note however, it could be some time to get picked up and really, I think the general desire from organisations to use Teams is more to have autostart on by default rather than off
So basically saying "it's intended, stop being a
".
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@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@hungrier Have you read the original post?
Of course not, what kind of degenerate do you think I am?
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@Vixen said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
click the desktop to give it focus
or press CTRL+D to do the same without taking your hands off the keyboard.
useful shortcut to know.
It only works if there's no application window with focus.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
It only works if there's no application window with focus.
then +D
which is the actual key combo. CTRL-D isn't a system hotkey.
i wrote that before caffeine.
also when using the correct hotkey it does so work with application windows in focus. Look I'll prove it by pressing +D Then ALT+F
-CARRIER LOST-
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
I wonder how much of that is caused by Windows 10's charming habit of "bookmarking" applications when you use the Start menu command to shut it down
Oh. That's what the fuck is happening! I could never figure out how it was re-opening some apps - and hadn't noticed that correlation. And was too
to investigate more...
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@Vixen said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
It only works if there's no application window with focus.
then +D
which is the actual key combo. CTRL-D isn't a system hotkey.
i wrote that before caffeine.
also when using the correct hotkey it does so work with application windows in focus. Look I'll prove it by pressing +D Then ALT+F
It does indeed. Sorry.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Vixen said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
It only works if there's no application window with focus.
then +D
which is the actual key combo. CTRL-D isn't a system hotkey.
i wrote that before caffeine.
also when using the correct hotkey it does so work with application windows in focus. Look I'll prove it by pressing +D Then ALT+F
It does indeed. Sorry.
eeeh. no worries. it gave me the opportunity to make the "tricked into quitting the game mid match" joke, and that's always worth it.
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@levicki said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
it still enables auto-start again after application launch, unless you disable that in the configuration after logging in
Or you could perhaps just delete the Teams entry from the Run registry key after installation?
While you are at it, you could probably also set some Teams registry key so that autostart isn't checked by default?I'm not a hacker. If I were one I'd be using Slack/Discord instead, thus not having to do any of that.
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@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
By this metric blocking issues for a smaller group of people is less important than minor improvements for bigger groups of people.
It feels like it's not a new thing at all.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
I wonder how much of that is caused by Windows 10's charming habit of "bookmarking" applications when you use the Start menu command to shut it down.
Its what?
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@loopback0 If it worked well, it would be great. Alas, lots of programs don't really take kindly to that sort of thing even now. Apple is a bit better at it (Terminal.app keeps your scrollback across reboots) but it is still imperfect. The core issue is that the application needs to really be written to keep a lot more state, and more persistently, than has been common over the past... well... lots of decades?
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@dkf said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@loopback0 If it worked well, it would be great.
If what works well? FFS.
@dkf said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
Alas, lots of programs don't really take kindly to that sort of thing even now. Apple is a bit better at it (Terminal.app keeps your scrollback across reboots) but it is still imperfect. The core issue is that the application needs to really be written to keep a lot more state, and more persistently, than has been common over the past... well... lots of decades?
Oh are people talking about it relaunching stuff that's open when it's restarted?
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@levicki said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@_P_ said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
I'm not a hacker. If I were one I'd be using Slack/Discord instead, thus not having to do any of that.
If you can pass a command line parameter to
msiexecto deploy without users logged in, then you can also executereg deleteandreg add, there is no hackery involved. It's pretty much standard for many apps and SCCM or WSUS deployment.Yes, and I can even just unpack the files in the msi file and peform a manual installation (you tend to have to do this back at the time CD installation was common and
setup.exewon't work unless it's mounted like a CD would, placed at the root directly), it certainly works, but it's nothing but
. Also if they change how auto-start mechanism works in the future (even though is very unlikely), all the hacks you've done stops working.
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@loopback0 said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@dkf said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@loopback0 If it worked well, it would be great.
If what works well? FFS.
@dkf said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
Alas, lots of programs don't really take kindly to that sort of thing even now. Apple is a bit better at it (Terminal.app keeps your scrollback across reboots) but it is still imperfect. The core issue is that the application needs to really be written to keep a lot more state, and more persistently, than has been common over the past... well... lots of decades?
Oh are people talking about it relaunching stuff that's open when it's restarted?
No. When it's started again later after you shut it down. So you work on a sensitive document, shut down Windows with the document saved but still open, and when you start the machine up in front of the customer, the document is unexpectedly still open.
If you restart Win10, it doesn't restore bookmarked applications and it doesn't semi-hibernate the kernel either (that's what Fast Startup does). The point of restart (versus shutdown and start again later) is that you(1) do it to clear the machine of bogus state, update locked DLLs and EXEs and so on, and that requires a clean startup rather than a dehibernate.
(1) Meaning the user or Windows Update or whatever.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
If you restart Win10, it doesn't restore bookmarked applications
"bookmarked" is a term I've not seen Windows use in this context so it threw me. It absolutely does relaunch applications that were open when you (or Windows Update) restart.
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
No. When it's started again later after you shut it down.
It's the same behaviour. There's an option to turn it off.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
So you work on a sensitive document
That's an euphemism I've not heard before.
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@Zerosquare said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
So you work on a sensitive document
That's an euphemism I've not heard before.
Um. Would you prefer that I had said, "Company Confidential document that the customer isn't supposed to see"?
(But one that the customer can see briefly until you hastily close it.)
@loopback0 said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
If you restart Win10, it doesn't restore bookmarked applications
"bookmarked" is a term I've not seen Windows use in this context so it threw me. It absolutely does relaunch applications that were open when you (or Windows Update) restart.
It's not a term that Windows itself uses, but one used on the Microsoft tech support forums by a Microsoft guy.
@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
No. When it's started again later after you shut it down.
It's the same behaviour. There's an option to turn it off.
I like the way that they didn't separate "automatically finish setting up my device" and "relaunch applications", although it's not clear what "automatically finish setting up my device" could possibly mean after the first time someone signs into Windows. (Yes, I imagine that they might mean "configure my desktop and all that blah-blah", but it's not clear because that's not what "finish setting up my device" means to me.)
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@loopback0 said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
There's an option to turn it off.
Maybe for some... I have 1903 (Pro) and that switch doesn't exist in my settings. (I'm betting some corporate policy has hidden it)
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@dkf said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@loopback0 If it worked well, it would be great. Alas, lots of programs don't really take kindly to that sort of thing even now. Apple is a bit better at it (Terminal.app keeps your scrollback across reboots) but it is still imperfect. The core issue is that the application needs to really be written to keep a lot more state, and more persistently, than has been common over the past... well... lots of decades?
And the problem with programs that store that much state to persist across reboots, cause headaches when their state becomes corrupt and the old "Did you try rebooting your PC?" trick no longer works to fix things unless you can figure out what hidden file/folder to trash first.
Filed Under: Here's to you, Windows hibernate/fast-boot
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
although it's not clear what "automatically finish setting up my device" could possibly mean after the first time someone signs into Windows. (Yes, I imagine that they might mean "configure my desktop and all that blah-blah", but it's not clear because that's not what "finish setting up my device" means to me.)
Some updates have a similar "finishing...blah" stage when someone first logs in after the update. It's that.
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@dcon said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
@loopback0 said in UserVoice development, aka features Battle Royale:
There's an option to turn it off.
Maybe for some... I have 1903 (Pro) and that switch doesn't exist in my settings. (I'm betting some corporate policy has hidden it)
Yeah, same for me, on my personal (at home, owned by me, etc.) PC. And there's red text at the top telling me that some settings are managed or hidden by my organisation, except that my organisation (er, me?) didn't do any such thing. (It may be something that's hidden automatically as soon as your PC joins an AD domain, because Samba 4.6 (1) certainly isn't going to deactivate that sort of thing of its own accord.)
(1) My AD domain is managed by Samba, thanks.
