Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications
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xkcd said in https://xkcd.com/969/ :
Delta-P
(via https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?search=p-value&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1)
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Not this one.
@error_bot xkcd significant
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@loopback0 did they finally come forward and give details what is actually supposed to have happened?
Because the mod in question says “citation needed” about this:We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change that behavior.
I mean, maybe we wouldn’t have this discussion if she did misbehave like that. But from all the comments it certainly sounds like she didn’t.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
did they finally come forward and give details what is actually supposed to have happened?
No, there's a comment that suggests they're not going to.
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
It seems that if you dare to disagree with whatever that vocal faction of trans people deems "proper" there is no room for a civilized debate -- you instantly get labeled with one or more of "bigot, chauvinist, mysogynist, extremist, sexist, shitlord, cis-normative, homophobe, heterosexist", and publicly shamed with the possiblity of serious real-life consequences -- the kind of consequences those same trans people were fighting for decades to avoid themselves. For me, that reeks of hypocrisy.
Is there any evidence that any actual trans people were involved with her removal? Or is this just their so-called allies overcorrecting?
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@Unperverted-Vixen according to her account linked above, the one who started the whole CoC/pronoun kerfuffle was a non-binary or trans (not clear which) moderator who took a very hard line, including demanding that SO require (hard positive rule) use of "preferred" (their word) pronouns and that writing in a gender-neutral way is not acceptable.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
writing in a gender-neutral way is not acceptable.
That is itself completely unacceptable. How can anyone support this? (Assuming what you wrote accurately reflects their stance)
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@Benjamin-Hall Okay, I missed that. Thanks for pointing that out.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
writing in a gender-neutral way is not acceptable.
That is itself completely unacceptable. How can anyone support this? (Assuming what you wrote accurately reflects their stance)
Looking for the quote, I misattributed that particular piece (although it was implied by other stuff that person wrote). It really was written by "an employee with the 'director' title":
An employee with a "director" title posted and pinned a message saying the company is changing the CoC to require use of preferred pronouns and avoiding them is forbidden
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
require use of preferred pronouns and avoiding them is forbidden
Did you ask the preferred pronouns for
theirthe preferred pronouns' preferred pronouns??!?
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
It seems that if you dare to disagree with whatever that vocal faction of trans people deems "proper" there is no room for a civilized debate -- you instantly get labeled with one or more of "bigot, chauvinist, mysogynist, extremist, sexist, shitlord, cis-normative, homophobe, heterosexist", and publicly shamed with the possiblity of serious real-life consequences
Yes, Levicki, the real victims here are affluent cis white heterosexual males.
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
This is her account on what happened and how:
This is
hilariouslydepressingly bad. I mean, it’s definitely “she said”, but the way it’s written I’m inclined to believe her.
On a site like SE why do you need to use pronouns in the first place. If you’re talking to people directly instead of just answering a question, most of the time you’ll address them in second person. If you’re using third person you’ll probably @mention them. So the whole issue doesn’t even arise to begin with.
If it does arise, she mentions that there already was the rule “don't call people what they don't want to be called”. Which is perfectly reasonable. But then saying “I don’t want to cause problems so I’m writing in a neutral way” is bad because it avoids using the correct pronouns, that’s just crazy talk.
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There's another post about this whole mess now, this time from StackOverflow's CTO:
An apology to our community, and next steps
I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams. I joined Stack Overflow in 2010 because I believed in the vision and mission of Stack Over...
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@kt_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Do you really believe that stack exchange is now run by trans people only?
I never said anything about who is now running Stack Exchange nor I intend to.
If you somehow convinced yourself I did (and you seem to be trying to convince others as well judging by the accusatory tone of your post), then quote the relevant part of my post so we can all see what kind of mental gymnastics you had to go through to come to that conclusion.
Well, it's you who's trying to explain this SE meltdown with "this is how a group of trans people reacts"! No, it's not. This is how a company that wants to position themselves as fighters for someone rights to finally start earning money reacts. Or how Silly Valley people react.
TL;DR -- your therapy doesn't seem to be working.
Never said it did. But I have less money to spend on booze, so maybe it kinda does?
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Unperverted-Vixen said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Is there any evidence that any actual trans people were involved with her removal? Or is this just their so-called allies overcorrecting?
Sadly, all evidence seems to be "he said / she said" at this point. There was one queer mod involved who resigned from what I read.
Since you quoted that particular part of my post I should probably clarify that I didn't mean it to be taken as being specific to the SE situation, but an observation of a trend on how things tend to unwrap once the vocal minority starts rioting and demanding things.
Yeah, all those pesky minorities demanding things, that can't accept that they're simply abnormal and don't matter!
Ok, now you tried and explained your own backwards opinions as "I didn't mean it in the context of this situation, just generally", whereas this situation is obviously exactly what we're talking about and not really anything else. Still, you're basing your views on a kind of extrapolation of situations like this one, which is a real shame, because it means it's impossible to take you seriously.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Unperverted-Vixen according to her account linked above, the one who started the whole CoC/pronoun kerfuffle was a non-binary or trans (not clear which) moderator who took a very hard line, including demanding that SO require (hard positive rule) use of "preferred" (their word) pronouns and that writing in a gender-neutral way is not acceptable.
I understand that you want to set the account straight and that you believe that there was actually one trans person involved, but knowing you I also do believe that you're aware of the fact that it doesn't matter. One person (or even a few people) writing something on twitter is not (as @levicki tries to say) a vocal minority, or even a substantial part of the minority, or even a part large enough to actually take larger notice than "there are stupid people on the internet".
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I never said anything about who is now running Stack Exchange nor I intend to.
If you somehow convinced yourself I did (and you seem to be trying to convince others as well judging by the accusatory tone of your post), then quote the relevant part of my post so we can all see what kind of mental gymnastics you had to go through to come to that conclusion.
TL;DR -- your therapy doesn't seem to be working.As was pointed out by others, this definitely seems to be the intent of this part of your post:
It seems that if you dare to disagree with whatever that vocal faction of trans people deems "proper" there is no room for a civilized debate -- you instantly get labeled with one or more of "bigot, chauvinist, mysogynist, extremist, sexist, shitlord, cis-normative, homophobe, heterosexist", and publicly shamed with the possiblity of serious real-life consequences -- the kind of consequences those same trans people were fighting for decades to avoid themselves. For me, that reeks of hypocrisy.
Due to context and the fact that it was a reply to a post directly discussing the issue at hand. If that's not the intent please understand that's how I (and probably most people who read it) will perceive it.
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@kt_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
And now the therapy eats a large chunk of my income.
Who the shit are you paying here for therapy of all things?!??
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@kt_ all I was doing was responding to the question. As usual, I try to stay out of most internet "arguments", at least the substantive parts.
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@kazitor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
require use of preferred pronouns and avoiding them is forbidden
Did you ask the preferred pronouns for
theirthe preferred pronouns' preferred pronouns??!?FLAGGED FOR GENDER NEUTRAL LANGUAGE!!!
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@powerlord said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
There's another post about this whole mess now, this time from StackOverflow's CTO:
An apology to our community, and next steps
I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams. I joined Stack Overflow in 2010 because I believed in the vision and mission of Stack Over...
Well, they finally woke up...
I wonder though if the Stack Overflow top brass realizes that they're no longer mainly a software company, instead part of their main activity is and for a while will be Human Resource Management. And that really makes me wonder how many of the staff actually had sensitivity training, experience with counseling, or conflict avoidance skills (I guess @Polygeekery's wife could better estimate what skills an HR person has to juggle, just listing a few things).
Most of the people I've read about so far seem to pride themselves on being part of the technical communities, but that doesn't say anything about their soft skills. No word from Joel Spolsky as representative of the board of directors, or their new CEO, who might be wondering if this was the right choice.
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I mean, maybe we wouldn’t have this discussion if she did misbehave like that. But from all the comments it certainly sounds like she didn’t.
This is her account on what happened and how:
Damn. Are we really sure
left the company? Maybe they brought him back as an HPC to implement the CoC?
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@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I mean, maybe we wouldn’t have this discussion if she did misbehave like that. But from all the comments it certainly sounds like she didn’t.
This is her account on what happened and how:
Damn. Are we really sure
left the company? Maybe they brought him back as an HPC to implement the CoC?He trained them well.
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
people with real congenital or acquired physical or mental disabilities
>implying gender dysphoria isn't real
But seriously guys. Let's move this discussion to the garage where it belongs, shall we?
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@Gąska said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
people with real congenital or acquired physical or mental disabilities
>implying gender dysphoria isn't real
But seriously
guysWTDWTFers. Let's move this discussion to the garage where it belongs, shall we?FTFWTF
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@Gąska said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
people with real congenital or acquired physical or mental disabilities
>implying gender dysphoria isn't real
: could also mean it's not a disability.But seriously guys. Let's move this discussion to the garage where it belongs, shall we?
It's been almost civil, relatively speaking, but you're right.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
It's been almost civil, relatively speaking
But it's off-topic!
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
It's been almost civil, relatively speaking
But it's off-topic!
It would be off-topic to be on-topic on WTDWTF.
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
nowhere did I say they are abnormal, just different.
:bigbrain.png:
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
nowhere did I say they are abnormal, just different.
:bigbrain.png::alternatebrain.png:
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@powerlord said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
There's another post about this whole mess now, this time from StackOverflow's CTO:
An apology to our community, and next steps
I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams. I joined Stack Overflow in 2010 because I believed in the vision and mission of Stack Over...
A great post full of absolutely nothing. "We hurt you and we're sorry" for a couple of paragraphs, and then absolutely jack shit on the topic of why any of this was decided on, which of Sara and Monica were directly lying (given the claim about repeated violations vs the claim of zero violations), etc.
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@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
A great post full of absolutely nothing.
Yet still a massive improvement on the earlier one.
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@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
which of Sara and Monica were directly lying (given the claim about repeated violations vs the claim of zero violations), etc.
Based purely on assumptions, I’m going to say Sara was objectively wrong about all of this but not lying because she thought what she said is true. Not that that makes it much better.
I’m also curious about this part:
we’ll be sharing a second draft of an update to our Code of Conduct with all moderators for feedback
Well, if feedback is going to be considered pre-crime again, I doubt much will come of that.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I’m also curious about this part:
we’ll be sharing a second draft of an update to our Code of Conduct with all moderators for feedback
Well, if feedback is going to be considered pre-crime again, I doubt much will come of that.
Oh no, there will be a mass-culling based on feedback.
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@_P_ vote to close for off-topic and duplicate
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Well, if feedback is going to be considered pre-crime again, I doubt much will come of that.
Only if it appears to disagree with the Stack Overlords.
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@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
A great post full of absolutely nothing.
Yet still a massive improvement on the earlier one.
Just because things have improved doesn't mean it's become something actually acceptable. Calling that a "massive improvement" is like saying, running your PC on Windows XP nowadays is "a massive improvement" on running on Windows 98 instead, which is completely missing the point and (maliciously intentionally) stupid
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Just because things have improved doesn't mean it's become something actually acceptable.
I didn't claim otherwise.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Sara was objectively wrong about all of this but not lying because she thought what she said is true.
What kind of "alternative fact" shit is this? Before you speak about a certain topic you're supposed to look into it and find out basic information like what it is all about. Doing otherwise is 
and makes yourself a level of being as high as the conspiracy theorists.It's called common sense and if you don't have it, never enter any kind of arguments. The world will thank you later.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@kt_ all I was doing was responding to the question. As usual, I try to stay out of most internet "arguments", at least the substantive parts.
That's what I figured, just wanted to confirm.
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@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@powerlord said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
There's another post about this whole mess now, this time from StackOverflow's CTO:
An apology to our community, and next steps
I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams. I joined Stack Overflow in 2010 because I believed in the vision and mission of Stack Over...
A great post full of absolutely nothing. "We hurt you and we're sorry" for a couple of paragraphs, and then absolutely jack shit on the topic of why any of this was decided on, which of Sara and Monica were directly lying (given the claim about repeated violations vs the claim of zero violations), etc.
Exactly my thoughts. @Mason-Wheeler, do you and your fellow moderators feel this apology changes anything?
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Sara was objectively wrong about all of this but not lying because she thought what she said is true.
What kind of "alternative fact" shit is this? Before you speak about a certain topic you're supposed to look into it and find out basic information like what it is all about. Doing otherwise is and makes yourself a level of being as high as the conspiracy theorists.It's called common sense and if you don't have it, never enter any kind of arguments. The world will thank you later.
I think what @topspin meant was that Sara is still good people, just done fucked up, acted harshly in a rush. She's not trying to lie, she's just not aware what she's saying isn't true.
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Sara was objectively wrong about all of this but not lying because she thought what she said is true.
What kind of "alternative fact" shit is this?Lying requires intent, at least as usually defined. You may call it an “honest lie” otherwise.
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Sara was objectively wrong about all of this but not lying because she thought what she said is true.
What kind of "alternative fact" shit is this? Before you speak about a certain topic you're supposed to look into it and find out basic information like what it is all about. Doing otherwise is and makes yourself a level of being as high as the conspiracy theorists.It's called common sense and if you don't have it, never enter any kind of arguments. The world will thank you later.
Goddamn, after that opening I thought you're gonna go full blakey and say it's still lying.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
mass-culling
TOOL - Culling Voices (Audio) – 10:07
— TOOLVEVO
maybe it's time to switch albums
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@Gąska said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I thought you're gonna go full blakey
Filed under: Joking about the reference, not the person
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
If it was your superior's, again, shame on you. "I followed my orders" is not a valid defense at least since post-WW2.
lol no
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@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
wondering if this was the right choice
It's SO. It's definitely the wrong choice, in every possible way.
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An apology to our community, and next steps
I’m David Fullerton, Stack Overflow’s CTO, responsible for the product, engineering, and community teams. I joined Stack Overflow in 2010 because I believed in the vision and mission of Stack Over...
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