Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications
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@Captain said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@dangeRuss said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Didn't the Jeff create SE?
Yes, and he quit to form Discourse.
For one glorious moment, I thought you said "he quit from Discourse"
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@kt_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
They said "our CoC is not up for debate".
How about mass debate?
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@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Vixen said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
COCs
Corruption of Champions?
I didn't know there was such a large fan base for that game.
Fenoxo must be ecstatic.
See, now I know you're @accalia.
I'm @accalia as well then.
No, I'm @accalia.
This is the only one that I actually believe
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
From 2009:
I've explained Stack Overflow to hundreds of people, and by far the most effective way to explain what we do -- the way that causes people to visibly "get it" almost instantly, with a giant cartoon lightbulb practically appearing over their head -- is this:
"We're like experts-exchange, but without all the evil."
Experts-exchange was about 12 years old when SO was founded to be an evil-free alternative to it.
SO is about 11 years old right now...
Maybe that's why Jeff left, so he could wait a few years, and then launch a new "non evil" alternative to Stack Overflow.
There's certainly a gap in the market now...
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Resignation number *counts on fingers* *runs out of fingers*
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@DoctorJones said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Captain said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@dangeRuss said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Didn't the Jeff create SE?
Yes, and he quit to form Discourse.
For one glorious moment, I thought you said "he quit from Discourse"
StackOverflow proves that no Jeff doesn't mean the disease goes away, alas.
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It's worse than that. I've seen several comments saying that SO started going wrong when Jeff quit. So I see two possible explanations:
- as strange as it may seem to us, his presence had a positive effect on the company
or
- even so many years ago, the internal level of ery at SO was so high that even Jeff couldn't tolerate it and decided to quit.
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In other news, after just 5 days, the new CoC's score is below -1,300. I'm not sure the "take your CoC and shove it" message could be any clearer.
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@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Resignation number *counts on fingers* *runs out of fingers*
I love the retard who just couldn't help himself and edited the "question."
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@boomzilla Ummm, there's one third-party edit where a typo in the title was fixed, and the other is a moderator editing the question to make it "featured" for all to see. Everything else are changes by the author.
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@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla Ummm, there's one third-party edit where a typo in the title was fixed, and the other is a moderator editing the question to make it "featured" for all to see. Everything else are changes by the author.
I dunno. I clicked on the edit thing here on mobile and saw some thing also down in the question changed that seemed like some pedantic minutia.
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@boomzilla Yes, but the content edits were all by the original author.
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@Unperverted-Vixen said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla Yes, but the content edits were all by the original author.
I blame mobile. It's different.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
It just keeps getting better.
I honestly don't know what the worst part of this is:
- The behavior of SO that led to this point?
- The ridiculous set of laws they now added for such a simple problem?
- The people who are now using this issue to promote their political agenda?
- The commenters who don't outright say, but imply that not allowing them to intentionally mis-gender people is religious discrimination against them?
- The pathetic hyperbole of all the commenters who act like this is the end of Western society in one way or another?
- Or the fact that the people who this is supposedly about have probably (in some cases, publicly) left SO already, because it must be unbearable to watch this shit show?
Reading that discussion just makes me disgusted at people in general. I need a bubble bath, a bottle of scotch and a day off.
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@gleemonk said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
What I find unreasonable is to introduce more specific pronouns. The feeling of being excluded by he/she when you're neither I can understand.
I tend to agree with that, but I'm willing to reconsider my position and accept neologisms if someone comes up with a reasonable pronoun other than it/they that we can easily use in a grammatically correct way. I'm also happy to use whatever pronoun people want to be called if it makes them feel more accepted in the meantime.
However, SE meta is definitely the wrong place to discuss any of this. Force is also not the correct measure if your end goal is acceptance. And you most certainly shouldn't need a huge FAQ on pronouns for a Q&A site.
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@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I blame mobile. It's different.
I appreciate the Jeff quote, but I literally get the desktop page when I look at the edit history on mobile.
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@Unperverted-Vixen said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I blame mobile. It's different.
I appreciate the Jeff quote, but I literally get the desktop page when I look at the edit history on mobile.
Nevertheless, it's a lot smaller.
Anywho...I clicked on a particular edit and expected to see that edit, not the entire history, and the tag edit was so small on the page as to practically disappear with the wall of text of the "question" right below it. I suppose if I hated myself enough to hang out on SO in unhealthy amounts and thereby be familiar with the UI I'd have figured out what I was looking at.
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Also, as far as I can see, most people have stopped even trying to make sense. How to combat some highly vocal idiot sprouting complete nonsense on the Internet? Try to argue back? Nope that's not gonna work. Try to ask mods/admins to act on it? Now they'll be yelling at you for trying to "censor the free internet". The best course of action is to turn their absurd paragraphs into copypasta and meme it for the rest of the decade. It has never been so chaotic, that you need an entirely different paradigm of interpersonal interaction to stay afloat.
This is all too accurate. Sometimes I wonder if the world would be more bearable if the Web 2.0 and all that "participation" bullshit just disappeared.
Shit, I'm getting old.
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@error said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
TIL the fastest way to farm Internet pointzzz is to post on highly controversial threads.
That's how I got all my Reddit karma. By posting something in a political thread that both sides could have reasonably interpreted as agreeing with their position. And commenting more quickly than others.
What I was actually trying to say was that they're all idiots. I guess their reaction proved it.
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@dfdub said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
[...] I'm willing to reconsider my position and accept neologisms if someone comes up with a reasonable pronoun other than it/they that we can easily use in a grammatically correct way.
I'm willing to consider but it will be a hard sell. Many languages do just fine without genders and we rarely need to differentiate genders in everyday speech. It's really weird to me as a self-identified feminist how there's suddenly all this clamoring for more gender differentiation. Weren't we supposed to lose that? Didn't we want a society where in most instances it doesn't matter what gender you are?
Just introduce a gender-neutral pronoun and have everybody use that. If you want to make progress.
I'm also happy to use whatever pronoun people want to be called if it makes them feel more accepted in the meantime.
Sure. Of the pronouns that already exist. I can't tell them how they should feel about gender even if my senses say otherwise.
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@gleemonk said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
It's really weird to me as a self-identified feminist how there's suddenly all this clamoring for more gender differentiation. Weren't we supposed to lose that?
QFT. Why isn't social gender theory considered sexist?
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@aitap said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Why isn't social gender theory considered sexist?
Well, allowing people to consciously express themselves using gender stereotypes and categorically judging people of a certain gender based on stereotypes without their consent are not the same thing. It might look weird at first to fight against the latter and celebrate the former from a distance, but if you take a closer look it's not as contradictory as it seems. The common goal is that people should not be judged based on their genitals and be allowed to express themselves freely, outside the confines of gender stereotypes others assign to them.
Of course, there are people who - in their effort to be extremely progressive - actually subvert their principles. But those are idiots and should be disregarded. See also: People who don't understand the actual definition of "cultural appropriation" and end up accidentally agreeing with racists w.r.t. separation of cultures.
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@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
hang out on SO in unhealthy amounts
You've visited at least once; that's already unhealthy.
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@HardwareGeek said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
hang out on SO in unhealthy amounts
You've visited at least once; that's already unhealthy.
Not the same as "hanging out." By which I meant doing more than reading content, which can be quite helpful, as opposed to here.
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I don't understand how their "identity" if someone uses the wrong pronoun.
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@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@HardwareGeek said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
hang out on SO in unhealthy amounts
You've visited at least once; that's already unhealthy.
Not the same as "hanging out." By which I meant doing more than reading content, which can be quite helpful, as opposed to here.
Good faith reading: I don't hang out there like I hang out here.
Bad faith reading: reading content there is helpful, as opposed to reading content here.Realistic reading: :whynotboth.gif:
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@slapout1 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I don't understand how their "identity" if someone uses the wrong pronoun.
I think you accidentally a word or three there...
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@HardwareGeek said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@boomzilla said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
hang out on SO in unhealthy amounts
You've visited at least once; that's already unhealthy.
Not the same as "hanging out." By which I meant doing more than reading content, which can be quite helpful, as opposed to here.
Good faith reading: I don't hang out there like I hang out here.
Bad faith reading: reading content there is helpful, as opposed to reading content here.RealisticIntended reading: :whynotboth.gif:
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The drama begins to recurse!
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@pie_flavor Don't forget the SO classic...
(yeah, it got reopened by more people but still)
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@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
a big edit war
Fucking morons
How did SO get so big when it operates like this?
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@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
How did SO get so big when it operates like this?
I guess there might have been a time when people used their editing rights wisely. But this edit war here is breathtakingly childish. Because why act like a professional on a site meant for professionals?
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@dfdub said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
And you most certainly shouldn't need
a huge FAQ onpronouns for a Q&A site.FTFY
On sites where gender is not relevant, like StackOverflow, there is no need for gender. If you're asking a question about why your LINQ query is causing an exception, it is completely irrelevant what gender you are, or even if you're a dog on the internet. All it does is add noise. The OP has chosen a display name, and should be happy to be addressed by that name*, that they chose, specifically for conversing on this platform. The CoC seems to have been written with a face to face paradigm in mind, but this isn't face to face, it's a very narrowly focused Q&A platform.
*Under the new CoC, referring to someone by name instead of using their preferred pronouns is regarded as misgendering! This was added at the behest of pronoun advocates in the TL debacle. If someone finds their own screen name offensive, they seriously need to re-evaluate their life choices...
Some people keep saying, "but on other sites like Inter Personal Skills" the gender can matter. Even if the question is about gender, the gender of the OP doesn't matter. Consider the difference between "As a woman, how could I get X to happen?", and "How could a woman get X to happen?". They're both the same question, but the latter removes the irrelevant detail of the OP's gender. Why does it matter who is asking the question? Sometimes it's relevant to know which region a question is for, like if we're discussing US employment law, but it still doesn't matter who the OP is, the colour of their skin, their gender, etc. None of it matters, they will all have questions answered (or more likely closed) equally.
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@aitap said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
QFT. Why isn't social gender theory considered sexist?
Sexism is to gender what addiction is to drugs: when you do it in bad ways. Because people disagree about which discrimination is bad, they will use the sexism label differently. Like disagreeing over what makes one alcoholic.
And now I'm in trouble because I've used the word "discrimination" in a way that doesn't mean it's always bad
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@dfdub Ah, so the gender stereotypes are only considered bad when applied to other people but are okay to express oneself with, and their use for self-expression doesn't imply/validate their use against others? I feel like it might contradict with "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" philosophy (if one uses gender stereotypes for oneself, what's to stop that person from applying them to others?), but that's just my interpretation.
@gleemonk But discrimination is good. You need discrimination to get a good score. I sure do discriminate a lot :)
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Oh look, even more ridiculousness...
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@gleemonk said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@aitap said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
QFT. Why isn't social gender theory considered sexist?
Sexism is to gender what addiction is to drugs: when you do it in bad ways. Because people disagree about which discrimination is bad, they will use the sexism label differently. Like disagreeing over what makes one alcoholic.
And now I'm in trouble because I've used the word "discrimination" in a way that doesn't mean it's always bad
Many feminists say that discrimination is good, as long as you call it affirmative action or something like that.
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@aitap said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@dfdub Ah, so the gender stereotypes are only considered bad when applied to other people but are okay to express oneself with, and their use for self-expression doesn't imply/validate their use against others?
Yes, kind of?
First off, some stereotypes exist for a reason. That means assuming everyone is like that is wrong and might be offensive, but doesn’t mean there’s not a higher posterior likelihood involved.
Second, there’s no need to be grim all the time and there’s also nothing wrong with being able to make some light fun of yourself. I’ll generously use the stereotype joke that “men see only 6 colors” and link to the xkcd, even though that itself debunks it. It’s just a joke. Not gender related, I’ll also happily make fun of myself as a “socially awkward nerd”. I mean, if the shoe fits...
Or, for some non-joke, if a situation were to come up were we discussed clothing and I said “sorry, as a man, I don’t wear skirts”, would that be using gender stereotypes? Because if you now accused me of “hetero-normativity” that’d be comical. I think there’s a difference between saying “I don’t do something because I’m male” and “you’re not allowed to do something because you’re male”.
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@DoctorJones that’s hilarious, but not very credible. Good troll, but I’m almost entirely sure “attack helicopter” was chosen very purposely, without any nostalgia about “Airwolf” in mind.
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@topspin Yeah, keep using "OP's a troll" to dodge the ultimate question about the absurdity of the current situation, just like what SE would want you to do
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@DoctorJones said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Oh look, even more ridiculousness...
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin Yeah, keep using "OP's a troll" to dodge the ultimate question about the absurdity of the current situation, just like what SE would want you to do
Did I, though?
:whynotboth:
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@Carnage said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Many feminists say that discrimination is good, as long as you call it affirmative action or something like that.
Whether and to which degree "positive discrimination" is a good idea is highly controversial amongst pretty much every group, including feminists. I'm pretty sure this is not a good discussion to start outside the garage or salon.
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@dfdub said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Whether and to which degree "positive discrimination" is a good idea is highly controversial amongst pretty much every group, including feminists. I'm pretty sure this is not a good discussion to start outside the garage
or salon.FTFY.
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@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
How did SO get so big when it operates like this?
Fucking SO.
Earlier today, I was wondering how to create an Excel document in C# without Office. I didn't actually need to do it, I was just curious and avoiding doing something else.
I Googled it and got a StackOverflow result.
Despite having actual reasonable answers it's been closed as too broad (whatever that actually means)
The original poster added an explaination of why it needed to be without Office but someone else edited it out.
It's been the subject of a slow close & reopen cycle over several yearsI also found this question, which was closed as a duplicate of the previous question:
So now anyone who finds that question gets a link to a different question that's apparently too broad and has been closed.
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@loopback0 Voted to reopen.
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@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Earlier today, I was wondering how to create an Excel document in C# without Office.
Going off-tangent, do you need any actual Excel features? If you need all of its capabilities, whatever dependency you pull in will probably be pretty big. Otherwise, just exporting something like CSV might just good enough (modulo all the problems with Excel's i18n madness).
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@loopback0 Voted to reopen.
I just don't understand the sort of mentality that even considers it beneficial to the community to:
- edit a question to remove the explanation of why they need to do this*
- close a question with multiple good answers, some of which have hundreds of upvotes and have even been kept up-to-date
- close a question that has been considered the "master" of other duplicate questions
* FWIW I could understand people refusing to answer without an explanation of why the person asking needs to do something but closing entirely would still be shitty
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Going off-tangent, do you need any actual Excel features? If you need all of its capabilities, whatever dependency you pull in will probably be pretty big. Otherwise, just exporting something like CSV might just good enough (modulo all the problems with Excel's i18n madness).
Nah, CSV was good enough and I already knew how to do that. I was just curious and
wasting timeconducting important technical research.
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@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I could understand people refusing to answer without an explanation of why the person asking needs to do something but closing entirely would still be shitty
The irony is that it arguably is "too broad" in the sense that as stated it's a bit of an XY problem (also cf. my reply to your post), but that's only because they apparently edited out his rationale. If you leave in the rationale what they actually need this for, it's a perfectly reasonable question with a ton of upvotes and highly upvoted answers.