Solar Roadways?
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@HardwareGeek said in Solar Roadways?:
@Rhywden said in Solar Roadways?:
that's just left out of the article.
Ah, that makes a lot more sense.
Well, except this part of the brochure:
Electric planes, flying cars and hyperloop coming next. Right. I guess their charging devices could work — if the vehicles they're charging could.This is all easily solved with a system of relay airships equipped with multiple directed maser emitters. If they're knocked off course, the ground station emitter naturally self-corrects the system. Totally fail-safe.
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@Gribnit said in Solar Roadways?:
This is all easily solved with a system of relay airships equipped with multiple directed maser emitters. If they're knocked off course, the ground station emitter naturally self-corrects the system. Totally fail-safe.
Either that or the paupers on the ground catch it, in which case you charge their next of kin for the power usage.
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@dkf said in Solar Roadways?:
@Gribnit said in Solar Roadways?:
This is all easily solved with a system of relay airships equipped with multiple directed maser emitters. If they're knocked off course, the ground station emitter naturally self-corrects the system. Totally fail-safe.
Either that or the paupers on the ground catch it, in which case you charge their next of kin for the power usage.
Still trying to figure out how to monetize avian uses. Those updrafts are a valuable good.
If each relay airship consumes at least 3 sufficiently offset feeds, of course, this does not occur (once the system reaches economic equilibrium). Probably only need one extra ground station emitter for safety, or if the focus is usually first to go, you don't need any.
Problem? Power. Solution, death rays.
Problem, death rays. Solution, death rays.
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@HardwareGeek said in Solar Roadways?:
@Rhywden said in Solar Roadways?:
that's just left out of the article.
Ah, that makes a lot more sense.
Well, except this part of the brochure:
Electric planes, flying cars and hyperloop coming next. Right. I guess their charging devices could work — if the vehicles they're charging could.It looks like hyperloop is going to be their name brand of remote recharging dildos
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@izzion said in Solar Roadways?:
@HardwareGeek said in Solar Roadways?:
@Rhywden said in Solar Roadways?:
that's just left out of the article.
Ah, that makes a lot more sense.
Well, except this part of the brochure:
Electric planes, flying cars and hyperloop coming next. Right. I guess their charging devices could work — if the vehicles they're charging could.It looks like hyperloop is going to be their name brand of remote recharging dildos
Self-charging seems an option as well, although it would require a worn component or dangerously high iron levels.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
4 windows down, going 50 mph.
Are you slowing down for the cows, or what?
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@Gribnit said in Solar Roadways?:
@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
4 windows down, going 50 mph.
Are you slowing down for the cows, or what?
They can't hear me catcalling them if I'm driving too fast.
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@remi said in Solar Roadways?:
@hungrier Not sure how well that turned out for the miners in The Expanse (which is worth a watch IMO).
I'm betting they did better than those dirty belters
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@dcon said in Solar Roadways?:
@acrow said in Solar Roadways?:
@JBert said in Solar Roadways?:
Ah, but we'll only add it to downhill roads!
Is there an electric car without built-in regenerative braking anymore?
What are the odds that they all have it - but it's disabled unless you pay for the option?
It would be really stupid to build a hybrid/electric car without regenerative braking, as that is where the bulk of MPG come from when you're at low speeds.
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@dangeRuss said in Solar Roadways?:
@remi said in Solar Roadways?:
@hungrier Not sure how well that turned out for the miners in The Expanse (which is worth a watch IMO).
I'm betting they did better than those dirty belters
Next year, Amazon is releasing
MikeTheLiar
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@Gribnit said in Solar Roadways?:
@dangeRuss said in Solar Roadways?:
@remi said in Solar Roadways?:
@hungrier Not sure how well that turned out for the miners in The Expanse (which is worth a watch IMO).
I'm betting they did better than those dirty belters
Next year, Amazon is releasing
MikeTheLiar
Oh. Is that why he never posts any more?
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@dangeRuss said in Solar Roadways?:
It would be really stupid to build a hybrid/electric car without regenerative braking, as that is where the bulk of MPG come from when you're at low speeds.
No it doesn't. The majority of the MPG comes from the batteries and the significantly reduced wind resistance at lower speeds.
Regenerative braking is 60-70% efficient, with a recapture rate of 15-30%. There is a big difference between efficiency and efficacy.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
@dangeRuss said in Solar Roadways?:
It would be really stupid to build a hybrid/electric car without regenerative braking, as that is where the bulk of MPG come from when you're at low speeds.
No it doesn't. The majority of the MPG comes from the batteries and the significantly reduced wind resistance at lower speeds.
You're both arguing wrong. Regen matters more in city driving. Low speed circling most high schools does not benefit from regen, at least not greatly.
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@Gribnit said in Solar Roadways?:
Low speed circling most high schools does not benefit from regen, at least not greatly.
That depends on how many stop signs are on the route and how often and rapidly you slow down to ogle inappropriately young females.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
@Gribnit said in Solar Roadways?:
Low speed circling most high schools does not benefit from regen, at least not greatly.
That depends on how many stop signs are on the route and how often and rapidly you slow down to ogle inappropriately young females.
City driving, on the other hand, is a fucking terrible idea to begin with.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
@dangeRuss said in Solar Roadways?:
It would be really stupid to build a hybrid/electric car without regenerative braking, as that is where the bulk of MPG come from when you're at low speeds.
No it doesn't. The majority of the MPG comes from the batteries and the significantly reduced wind resistance at lower speeds.
Regenerative braking is 60-70% efficient, with a recapture rate of 15-30%. There is a big difference between efficiency and efficacy.
Also, regenerative braking yields more at higher speeds - after all, it converts kinetic to stored chemical energy and kinetic energy is proportial to speed squared. My electric car simply does not regenerative brake below a certain speed for that reason.
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This seems kind of related and nearly as dumb:
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@boomzilla said in Solar Roadways?:
This seems kind of related and nearly as dumb:
There may be some overlap of reasons, but one reason I think is new with this: the intention is that the drivers will get free energy. Normally, people factor in the cost of gas (or electricity) when deciding whether to drive somewhere. If these roads actually turn out to work well, people will then have one less reason not to drive, and the taxpayers (and the environment) will foot the bill.
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@jinpa there's no way this works well. Plugged into a really powerful charger still takes significant time. This is supposed to charge lots of cars wirelessly over a huge area. There's no way anyone will fund the power for this to any degree that it will make a difference.
Also note TFA says that this is supposed to be "maintenance free." This is true, but only because it will never happen, or at least will be turned off before they need to fix anything.
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@boomzilla I'll see you and raise you with liquid hydrogen
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@homoBalkanus brillant!
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@jinpa said in Solar Roadways?:
If these roads actually turn out to work well,
you know damn well it'll become like our carpool lanes. Pay-to-play.
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@boomzilla said in Solar Roadways?:
@jinpa there's no way this works well. Plugged into a really powerful charger still takes significant time. This is supposed to charge lots of cars wirelessly over a huge area. There's no way anyone will fund the power for this to any degree that it will make a difference.
Plus there are of course zero standards for wireless charging on the move¹. For a reason, because who wants to make the car even heavier with a coil that can take 200kW for a charger that would just waste like half the energy² to heat up the pavement³ and/or the car if it existed anywhere which it doesn't. If it did, each manufacturer would of course have their own Standard™ unless forced to collaborate at gunpoint. And if this highway and its car counterpart plus the communication infrastructure that tells the highway where which car is existed⁴ they'd get a whopping ~3% of charge over this mile.
¹ Something exists for stationary charging at 11kW, not 200. A "standard" at least, I don't know of any physical deployments.
² Generously estimating from regular Qi pads where cellphone and pad are no more than a few mm from each other and that haveP_in ≈ 2 P_out
³ with liquid asphalt at 100 kW_th
⁴ I hope they don't want to blast a few dozen MW into space as long wave radio by keeping it running when no compatible cars are on it
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@LaoC said in Solar Roadways?:
Plus there are of course zero standards for wireless charging on the move
I know nothing about wireless charging, but wouldn't that create havoc for some electronics and wireless communications? Especially at those power levels?
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@dcon said in Solar Roadways?:
@LaoC said in Solar Roadways?:
Plus there are of course zero standards for wireless charging on the move
I know nothing about wireless charging, but wouldn't that create havoc for some electronics and wireless communications? Especially at those power levels?
Asking those questions sweet sweet VC funding.
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@jinpa said in Solar Roadways?:
If these roads actually turn out to work well
They won't. These people haven't even done basic research about wireless charging.
Spoiler alert: It works best when the coils are extremely close and not moving.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
It works best when the coils are extremely close and not moving.
But a moving coil in a magnetic field generates electricity. All you need is a big enough coil and you can charge naturally from the Earth's magnetic field as you drive.
Note: Even my 4k monitor can't display a big enough to properly accompany this post. That needs to be bigger than the ridiculously large coil you'd need to get useful voltage and current from the Earth's weak magnetic field. How big? to do any calculations, but off the top of my head, I'd guess somewhere between the size of an office building and a small mountain. Even if you could drive with a coil that size, and even if you could make it 100% efficient, and even if you ignore the huge aerodynamic drag it would have, it couldn't recharge your battery as fast as you're discharging it; thermodynamics says .
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Thanksfully, there's a better way. You just add magnetic material to the road instead, and poof! Problem solved
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@boomzilla Well, it's probably a more interesting highway research project than the typical "put down a dozen different kinds of paint on an uninterrupted stretch of road to see which one lasts longer."
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@Parody maybe, but the paint thing would be more useful.
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@Zerosquare said in Solar Roadways?:
Thanksfully, there's a better way. You just add magnetic material to the road instead, and poof! Problem solved
Just like this:
If only someone had thought of this before!!!!
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@boomzilla said in Solar Roadways?:
@Parody maybe, but the paint thing would be more useful.
Almost infinitely more useful.
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@boomzilla said in Solar Roadways?:
@Parody maybe, but the paint thing would be more useful.
When has that made any difference to the government?
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
@jinpa said in Solar Roadways?:
If these roads actually turn out to work well
They don't. These people haven't even done basic research about wireless charging.
Spoiler alert: It works best when the coils are extremely close and not moving.
Well, the moving part could work better if they enable/disable primary coils upon the secondary coils moving along them. "Better" in that context only means: "A tiny bit less shitty than before". I mean, vertical distance is not the only problem - horizontal is an even bigger one - unless you make the coils cover the whole street (which you then also need to partition) or have the cars on rails. I mean, I know induction ovens which have such an arrangement and with those you don't have to care where to place the pots - but these are expensive for a reason.
In addition to the huge problem of it basically being a stray-field transformer, there's also the non-negligible problem of it being relatively-low-voltage over a long distance (with all the problems Ohm's Law thus brings with it), it also needing to be high frequency (thus creating additional impedance due to it being buried) and finally them needing a metric ton of copper wire because they'll still have high currents regardless (there's a reason those high-wattage chargers have such hefty plugs - it's not only the thick copper but also the water cooling around the wires).
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@HardwareGeek You're forgetting about the reverse induction effect. Lenz's law dictates that you'll introduce a counterfield and with such a scheme, you'd get a huge braking force. After all, that's how a eddy current brake works.
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@Rhywden I just did a napkin calculation, using three-phase current, 400 Volts (the most common charging voltage), 500 Amps (to get to 200 kW), loss rate of 3%, phi at 0.9 and a cable length of 1 km.
Arrived at a required cable thickness of 1160 mm² (1.8 square inches). Yeah, that's a lot. Of course there are optimizations and things I overlooked and stuff. But even a reduction by 2 orders of magnitude would still be very expensive.
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@dcon said in Solar Roadways?:
@LaoC said in Solar Roadways?:
Plus there are of course zero standards for wireless charging on the move
I know nothing about wireless charging, but wouldn't that create havoc for some electronics and wireless communications? Especially at those power levels?
I think that's not the worst of the problems. Electronics is quite hardy these days, and I expect it to be especially in EVs which have to deal with high currents and fields anyway. It's more the unavoidable energy losses. That power has to go somewhere and the obvious places are either the road or the car, none of which is a good place for a few dozen kW of extra heat. Not that "somewhere in the general surroundings" would be a much better place.
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@Rhywden said in Solar Roadways?:
and finally them needing a metric ton of copper wire
The appropriate SI unit is the "fuckton"
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@LaoC said in Solar Roadways?:
That power has to go somewhere and the obvious places are either the road or the car
The most obvious place is back to the coil and its power supply. A transformer without a secondary is just an inductor and inductors don’t use power (besides hysteresis, eddy currents and I²R from the much-smaller magnetising current).
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@Rhywden said in Solar Roadways?:
@Rhywden I just did a napkin calculation, using three-phase current, 400 Volts (the most common charging voltage), 500 Amps (to get to 200 kW), loss rate of 3%, phi at 0.9 and a cable length of 1 km.
Arrived at a required cable thickness of 1160 mm² (1.8 square inches). Yeah, that's a lot. Of course there are optimizations and things I overlooked and stuff. But even a reduction by 2 orders of magnitude would still be very expensive.
And that's for one car, as far as I understand it, otherwise the achievable charge would be even less impressive unless there's a traffic jam and you spend like an hour on that charging mile.
If that thing should be anywhere close to useful you'd need maybe 30% of the fleet that can use it, and with one vehicle every ~40m there's 40 of them to a mile, times four lanes.
ing intensifies.
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@kazitor said in Solar Roadways?:
@LaoC said in Solar Roadways?:
That power has to go somewhere and the obvious places are either the road or the car
The most obvious place is back to the coil and its power supply. A transformer without a secondary is just an inductor and inductors don’t use power (besides hysteresis, eddy currents and I²R from the much-smaller magnetising current).
The losses are all the "besides" things, and they add up. A regular Qi pad uses something like 5V/2A to get an effective charging current of 1A. That's what the manual says for two I have, and while I haven't stuck it in a calorimeter, by the way it heats up that sounds about right. That's 50% lost to heat. It probably gets somewhat better for bigger systems, but worse for long cables and bigger distances.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
Plugging the extension cord into its own socket to keep it from uncoiling in storage is kind of pointless if you do not actually coil it up.
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@PleegWat Yes, but unli[-eee-]mited power[-rrr] has to count for something.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
Evil or great idea?
Put an extension strip like your picture on a wall, with the first outlet that is actually connected to a real plug (hidden behind the strip). This way, the other outlets only work if the extension lead is plugged like in the picture. Plug, say, a lamp in one of the other outlets to demonstrate that it works.
Put the whole thing closest to where other people are likely to see or use it and wait.
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@Rhywden said in Solar Roadways?:
You're forgetting about the reverse induction effect.
I'm not sure I really forgot it; there are so many reasons it won't work, I can't mention all of them. What difference does one more or less make?
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@LaoC said in Solar Roadways?:
none of which is a good place for a few dozen kW of extra heat
Wait. Doesn't that make Canada the perfect place for it then? No more icy roads!
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@dcon said in Solar Roadways?:
Wait. Doesn't that make Canada the perfect place for it then? No more icy roads!
That was also one of the benefits touted by the solar freakin' roadways idiots.
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
@dcon said in Solar Roadways?:
Wait. Doesn't that make Canada the perfect place for it then? No more icy roads!
That was also one of the benefits touted by the solar freakin' roadways
idiotsscam artists.FTFY
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@Polygeekery said in Solar Roadways?:
@dcon said in Solar Roadways?:
Wait. Doesn't that make Canada the perfect place for it then? No more icy roads!
That was also one of the benefits touted by the solar freakin' roadways idiots.
OTOH, you have the group who want to turn roads into superconductive maglev tracks cooled by liquid hydrogen.