Self-driving cars and drunk drivers
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@dcon said in Lift Replacepent WTF:
And we're trusting people to build reliable autonomous cars... **shudder**
That reminds me:
Translation/summary: Police officers noticed a Tesla that kept behind a truck on an otherwise empty motorway in the middle of the night (trucks being limited to 80 km/h on motorways where other cars are allowed to go 130). When the Tesla didn’t follow the police car after being summoned to, but sped up again after that had pulled away from it, the cops used the siren to get the driver’s attention. He turned out to be both drunk and asleep at the wheel, with the autopilot switched on. It appears the Tesla didn’t park itself because the man somehow kept his hands on the steering wheel during his nap.
So basically, the car was doing exactly what I would expect a car with autopilot to do and be useful for, and the man gets fined for it.
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@Gurth said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
So basically, the car was doing exactly what I would expect a car with autopilot to do and be useful for, and the man gets fined for it.
Tesla's communication is confusing, but I got the impression it was only a driving assistance feature at the moment, not something that could replace the driver completely? If so, punishing the guy is justified -- he potentially endangered others.
(And this is why I think those "close, but not quite" features are dangerous. You can tell people that they still need to pay attention to the road, but they still will be distracted, misunderstand or not care. The catch-22 is that to achieve 100% autonomous driving, you probably need the data obtained from 90% autonomous driving...)
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@Gurth said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
So basically, the car was doing exactly what I would expect a car with autopilot to do and be useful for, and the man gets fined for it.
It's supposed to be a driver aid and the driver is supposed to still be capable of being in charge of it and not drunk.
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@Zerosquare said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
he potentially endangered others.
Especially firefighters
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@Gurth said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
So basically, the car was doing exactly what I would expect a car with autopilot to do and be useful for
I agree this was expected, but I wouldn't say erroneously reading markings on the back of a truck as speed limit is useful.
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@levicki said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Proof that even adding cool tech to the equation solving for human problems does not remove the idiot from it -- on the contrary, it seems that tech coolness factor serves as an idiot multiplier.
There's a whole Wikipedia article on this subject:
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@Gurth said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
So basically, the car was doing exactly what I would expect a car with autopilot to do and be useful for, and the man gets fined for it.
The whole point of a self-driving vehicle is to remove the person from the operation, and in the process remove the cause of most crashes and deaths -- things like not paying attention, being drunk and falling asleep while driving.
Fining someone, for doing exactly what a self-driving vehicle is supposed to do, defeats the whole purpose of a self-driving vehicle.
And that exposes the real problem here. Companies like Tesla are fraudulently selling "auto pilot" features that don't actually work (reliably). That's why they insist that there must be a driver who is alert and in control at all times -- which, again, completely defeats the entire point of a self-driving vehicle.
If your "auto pilot" feature cannot reliably operate the vehicle when there is no person in control (drunk/asleep/whatever) then this feature should not exist on vehicles sold to the general public. Doing so is absolutely irresponsible.
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@loopback0 said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gurth said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
So basically, the car was doing exactly what I would expect a car with autopilot to do and be useful for, and the man gets fined for it.
It's supposed to be a driver aid and the driver is supposed to still be capable of being in charge of it and not drunk.
If he was drunk, I would expect that the penalty would be stronger than just a fine.
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@loopback0 said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
It's supposed to be a driver aid and the driver is supposed to still be capable of being in charge
No, that's the official bullshit weasel words used by companies like Tesla, while at the same time, strongly implying that their cars are fully capable of autonomous operation.
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@El_Heffe said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
implying that their cars are fully capable of autonomous operation.
Toby Fair, their cars can autonomously hit firetrucks
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@levicki they still need a driver for that.
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@jinpa said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@loopback0 said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gurth said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
So basically, the car was doing exactly what I would expect a car with autopilot to do and be useful for, and the man gets fined for it.
It's supposed to be a driver aid and the driver is supposed to still be capable of being in charge of it and not drunk.
If he was drunk, I would expect that the penalty would be stronger than just a fine.
From the Google Translation of the article...
His driving license has been taken, writes RTV Utrecht .
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@El_Heffe said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
No, that's the official bullshit weasel words used by companies like Tesla, while at the same time, strongly implying that their cars are fully capable of autonomous operation.
Right but they don't actually say it's capable of full autonomy now.
From the Tesla website (emphasis mine):and full self-driving capabilities in the future
Autopilot advanced safety and convenience features are designed to assist you with the most burdensome parts of driving. Autopilot introduces new features and improves existing functionality to make your Tesla safer and more capable over time.
Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane.
Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.
Regardless if the local law expects that the driver remains in charge of the vehicle then they need to be in charge of the vehicle. If someone opts to drive one drunk then that's on them and they deserve whatever happens to them.
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@levicki said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Proof that even adding cool tech to the equation solving for human problems does not remove the idiot from it -- on the contrary, it seems that tech coolness factor serves as an idiot multiplier.
There's a whole Wikipedia article on this subject:
Yup. There was discussion on another forum that, if the law requires very vehicles on the road be equipped with explosives that will explode even if being hit by slightest force, the traffic accident would have been dramatically reduced, as the drivers would use their full attention when driving such car.
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@cheong said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
if the law requires very vehicles on the road be equipped with explosives that will explode even if being hit by slightest force
It kinda does already... Dunno if it made accidents happen less, but they're definitely less fatal now.
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@cheong said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
if the law requires very vehicles on the road be equipped with explosives that will explode even if being hit by slightest force
It kinda does already... Dunno if it made accidents happen less, but they're definitely less fatal now.
The effect happens only if the driver is fully aware of that. For good effect the vehicle should be "wearing" multiple containers with explosives warning logo on it.
Not only the driver would drive slower, and pay more attention when driving it, the other drivers on the road would leave more distance from it instead of keep pushing it's back - as it is normal to do today on a busy city - and gives more reaction time when unexpected situation happens.
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I drive more carefully around hazmat trucks, so it checks out.
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@cheong said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Yup. There was discussion on another forum that, if the law requires very vehicles on the road be equipped with explosives that will explode even if being hit by slightest force, the traffic accident would have been dramatically reduced, as the drivers would use their full attention when driving such car.
Modern cars are pretty much all equipped with explosives that explode if the vehicle hits something more than lightly. The presence of these is marketed under the name “airbag”.
But I agree with what you say: if you make the situation seem riskier, then people will behave in a safer manner. Another good car example is soundproofing, which is far better in cars now than it was, say, thirty years ago. This probably contributes to speeding, because you obviously don’t get the noise of the road surface and wind inside the car as much, and so have less of an impression of speed.
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@Gurth said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@cheong said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Yup. There was discussion on another forum that, if the law requires very vehicles on the road be equipped with explosives that will explode even if being hit by slightest force, the traffic accident would have been dramatically reduced, as the drivers would use their full attention when driving such car.
Modern cars are pretty much all equipped with explosives that explode if the vehicle hits something more than lightly. The presence of these is marketed under the name “airbag”.
But I agree with what you say: if you make the situation seem riskier, then people will behave in a safer manner. Another good car example is soundproofing, which is far better in cars now than it was, say, thirty years ago. This probably contributes to speeding, because you obviously don’t get the noise of the road surface and wind inside the car as much, and so have less of an impression of speed.
More than the noise, I think the increase in speeding is caused by cars simply being able to go faster.
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
More than the noise, I think the increase in speeding is caused by cars simply being able to go faster.
Depends on how you look at it. It may be true for entry-level cars. But cars able to go way above the highest speed limits have existed for decades.
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@Zerosquare said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
But cars able to go way above the highest speed limits have existed for decades.
What mostly matters are average speeds, not the very small number of total outliers.
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@Zerosquare said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
More than the noise, I think the increase in speeding is caused by cars simply being able to go faster.
Depends on how you look at it. It may be true for entry-level cars. But cars able to go way above the highest speed limits have existed for decades.
But affordable cars that can go double the highway speed limit with decent MPG?
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@Gąska I wouldn't say that it's the MPG which is the issue but rather two other factors:
a) The strength of the engine - even entry cars have much stronger engines than their counterparts from two to three decades ago.
b) The noise from the engine - modern cars are much quieter than older cars at higher speeds.
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@Rhywden I meant that most cars couldn't manage that at all, and the few that did, you'd need to drive close to redline. Noise is secondary concern. Source: I live in Poland, a country where automotive market stopped in early 2000s.
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@Gąska Noise is not a secondary concern. It has a direct impact on how fast you're willing to drive.
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@Rhywden early 2000s is the average. The halfpoint.
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@Gąska Right. No one in the whole of Poland was able to afford new cars after 2000.
I guess you guys can't even steal them anymore?
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@Zerosquare said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
cars able to go way above the highest speed limits have existed for decades
Maybe the speed limits should be raised then?
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@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska Right. No one in the whole of Poland was able to afford new cars after 2000.
Um... do you know what "average" and "halfpoint" mean?
Point is. Many people are driving old, rusty Astra F's, Golf III's and the like, at 160km/h and up, overcoming the loud engines and wheels with even louder car audio. And they don't really care. When people have a choice of going fast or going quiet, they'll almost invariably go fast (of course fast vs. safe, and even fast vs. legal have much different proportions) - at least here in Poland.
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@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska Noise is not a secondary concern. It has a direct impact on how fast you're willing to drive.
I'm not sure it works that way in Pol--
@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Point is. Many people are driving old, rusty Astra F's, Golf III's and the like, at 160km/h and up, overcoming the loud engines and wheels with even louder car audio. And they don't really care. When people have a choice of going fast or going quiet, they'll almost invariably go fast (of course fast vs. safe, and even fast vs. legal have much different proportions) - at least here in Poland.
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@lolwhat said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Zerosquare said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
cars able to go way above the highest speed limits have existed for decades
Maybe the speed limits should be raised then?
The speed limit is determined by the conditions of the road, such as "how many layer of asphalt the road is built with" and "what are the turning angles / slopes on the road", not by the obtainable speed of cars.
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@cheong and road building contractors are chosen by their experience and quality of their past work.
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska Right. No one in the whole of Poland was able to afford new cars after 2000.
Um... do you know what "average" and "halfpoint" mean?
Point is. Many people are driving old, rusty Astra F's, Golf III's and the like, at 160km/h and up, overcoming the loud engines and wheels with even louder car audio. And they don't really care. When people have a choice of going fast or going quiet, they'll almost invariably go fast (of course fast vs. safe, and even fast vs. legal have much different proportions) - at least here in Poland.
And the source for that opinion stems from what?
Whereas me:
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@cheong and road building contractors are chosen by their experience and quality of their past work.
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Point is. Many people are driving old, rusty Astra F's, Golf III's and the like, at 160km/h and up, overcoming the loud engines and wheels with even louder car audio.
And what if they then go and drive a more modern car with better soundproofing? Chances are they’ll speed even more because they associate low noise with going slowly.
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@Gurth they'd do that even if it would be even louder.
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@Gąska Again, sources?
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@Rhywden I'm a Pole talking about Poles. Do you think you, a German, know better?
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Rhywden I'm a Pole talking about Poles. Do you think you, a German, know better?
I rather doubt that you know all of the Polish people? I for myself wouldn't dare to speak for all Germans.
That you fall back to this argument makes me only more distrustful of your statements.
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@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Rhywden I'm a Pole talking about Poles. Do you think you, a German, know better?
I rather doubt that you know all of the Polish people?
I rather doubt that I talked about all of the Polish people? Learn to read.
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Rhywden I'm a Pole talking about Poles. Do you think you, a German, know better?
I rather doubt that you know all of the Polish people?
I rather doubt that I talked about all of the Polish people? Learn to read.
I also doubt that you know a statistically significant amount of Polish people to be able to draw broad conclusions from.
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@Rhywden I drove statistically significant number of kilometers on statistically significant highways in statistically significant traffic over statistically significant number of years. My observations are that there are many drivers of older cars that push pedal to the metal, and they're only going slower than the new cars because the engines don't have any more power.
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@cheong said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
The speed limit is determined by the conditions of the road, such as "how many layer of asphalt the road is built with" and "what are the turning angles / slopes on the road", not by the obtainable speed of cars.
Maybe in an ideal world they would be. Here it seems like they're based on the maximum speed where a mobility scooter could still overtake you
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@hungrier or based on local politics and who
donated tois buddies with who, instead of anything engineering based.
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@Gąska I still don't belive you. We have no way of knowing whether you are right or whether you're just contrarian now because you simply cannot admit to not being right.
The point is: As soon as you proclaimed to have spoken "for the Poles" you have lost all credibility on this.
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@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska I still don't belive you.
No shit. Typical Rhywden is typical.
@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
The point is: As soon as you proclaimed to have spoken "for the Poles" you have lost all credibility on this.
Good thing I didn't do it, then!
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Good thing I didn't do it, then!
Aha.
I'm a Pole talking about Poles.
That's usually implying that there's some commonality to a people only best understood by their kin. It's also to be understood that such observations are general in nature.
In short: Yes, you did. I have no patience for this kind of bullshitting you're currently trying to pull.
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@Rhywden said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
Good thing I didn't do it, then!
Aha.
I'm a Pole talking about Poles.
That's usually implying that there's some commonality to a people only best understood by their kin. It's also to be understood that such observations are general in nature.
I was aiming more for "there's less geographical distance to the people I'm talking about from me than from you". It was never my intention to say that everybody is like this - only that it's very common. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. Or not. You're an asshole. Fuck you.
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@lolwhat said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
@Zerosquare said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
cars able to go way above the highest speed limits have existed for decades
Maybe the speed limits should be raised then?
Nonsense. Then, money would have to be spent to update all the speed limit signs. It's much better just to tell local law enforcement to exercise discretion, except for when the local government coffers are drying up.
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@Gąska said in Self-driving cars and drunk drivers:
I'm a Pole talking about Poles
Do Poles driving electric cars southwards observe the right-hand rule or the left-hand rule?