Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Gąska you said, there's no reason to make a foldable screen when there are alternatives.
No, I didn't.
I see (actually, I didn't see the video, but I trust your word) that there are alternatives. Fine. But they're not foldable (which is worth nil, or everything, depending on how much you're attracted to the idea).
Rather than ideas, I'm attracted to the possibilities the idea opens. Foldable screen is a lot of problems for little to no benefit.
Plus, why haven't they gone with such an alternative in the first place?
Why haven't they gone with reversible USB plugs before 2014? Answer: it just so happened that they didn't. There isn't any deeper reason for that.
My bet is that they are, for such an use case, (even more) fragile as one edge of the screens is going to be quite exposed.
There are very simple (in comparison) ways to make that non-issue.
Foldable screens may one day become rollable (which is somewhat useful at least).
Agreed. Actually rollable screens would be amazing. But it doesn't mean a halfway step in technology is half as much amazing.
Even if it's just a first step, I'm fine with it.
As a research project, me too. As an actual product - I just don't think the benefits justify the price and the potential (thanks to Samsung - actual and very real) durability issues.
There are worse crimes in consumer tech
Of course, but that doesn't make other bad products any less bad.
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I wonder if it would be possible to make rollable screen using a lot of tiny modular displays.
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@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
As a research project, me too. As an actual product - I just don't think the benefits justify the price and the potential (thanks to Samsung - actual and very real) durability issues.
In that case, you should thank all the foldable tablet aficionados for sponsoring this long-term research project, instead of arguing with them
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I'll be marginally interested once we see the longevity of this foldable screen. As is, it looks like something expensive that I won't derive any benefit from.
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@Parody said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Unfortunately, neither large readers nor color ones have emerged
IIRC weren't there some early(ish) Kindles that were huge?
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
There will always be a small gap. Imagine having a window across the two screens.
Sounds horrible, I don't know how anyone could possibly deal with anything like that
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@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Gąska you said, there's no reason to make a foldable screen when there are alternatives.
No, I didn't.
Yeah, there's no reason to buy one. Big difference.
I see (actually, I didn't see the video, but I trust your word) that there are alternatives. Fine. But they're not foldable (which is worth nil, or everything, depending on how much you're attracted to the idea).
Rather than ideas, I'm attracted to the possibilities the idea opens. Foldable screen is a lot of problems for little to no benefit.
Meh. What are the problems? And I can see one clear benefit, certainly for graphic artists (even two gapless screens are going to feel like two screens). Possibly for other people.
Plus, why haven't they gone with such an alternative in the first place?
Why haven't they gone with reversible USB plugs before 2014? Answer: it just so happened that they didn't. There isn't any deeper reason for that.
I don't know and neither do you. USB plugs had the problem of retrocompatibility. At a certain point the industry said, you know what, consumers are "gullible enough" (rather, there are "new classes of peripherals") to buy peripherals all over again, and it makes sense in phones too (which you buy once every two-three years usually).
My bet is that they are, for such an use case, (even more) fragile as one edge of the screens is going to be quite exposed.
There are very simple (in comparison) ways to make that non-issue.
Foldable screens may one day become rollable (which is somewhat useful at least).
Agreed. Actually rollable screens would be amazing. But it doesn't mean a halfway step in technology is half as much amazing.
Yeah but you gotta get there somehow.
Even if it's just a first step, I'm fine with it.
As a research project, me too. As an actual product - I just don't think the benefits justify the price and the potential (thanks to Samsung - actual and very real) durability issues.
Meh. If a research project actually sells (in decent numbers) why not? The first Apple/Android watches were an exercise in pointlessness. Today... they still are
but I see a few people wearing them and they say it's great. Who am I to judge?There are worse crimes in consumer tech
Of course, but that doesn't make other bad products any less bad.
There is merit in novelties. At least it's not that kind of novelty that can be easily picked up by the industry. See: notches.
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@hungrier my OCD is killing me.
When I use double screen setups (for example when I mix music - even though I have gone back to a single screen because I've simply lost one of my monitors
) I never have stuff straddling the two screens because I fucking hate it.
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Gąska you said, there's no reason to make a foldable screen when there are alternatives.
No, I didn't.
Yeah, there's no reason to buy one. Big difference.
Yes, it is.
I see (actually, I didn't see the video, but I trust your word) that there are alternatives. Fine. But they're not foldable (which is worth nil, or everything, depending on how much you're attracted to the idea).
Rather than ideas, I'm attracted to the possibilities the idea opens. Foldable screen is a lot of problems for little to no benefit.
Meh. What are the problems?
Production cost (I have no idea what the figures are like, but it feels like it's one or two orders of magnitude more expensive than regular screens) and very high fragility even by smartphone standards.
And I can see one clear benefit, certainly for graphic artists (even two gapless screens are going to feel like two screens).
This is the only use case I can think of where it might (MIGHT) make sense. Although I'm not sure if being able to fold a 14" tablet into 10" when not in use would matter much. Now, if we were talking about 25"+ tablets, then I admit it would make much more sense - folding those in half greatly increases portability, since you can now stuff it in a regular backpack.
Plus, why haven't they gone with such an alternative in the first place?
Why haven't they gone with reversible USB plugs before 2014? Answer: it just so happened that they didn't. There isn't any deeper reason for that.
I don't know and neither do you.
No, really. There actually wasn't any reason why they couldn't make one earlier. They just didn't.
USB plugs had the problem of retrocompatibility.
PC plugs - yes (and these are still non-reversible). But portable devices have always had non-standard plugs of all kinds. And it's not like USB-C was the first time since 1996 that IEC has designated a new standard plug shape.
Foldable screens may one day become rollable (which is somewhat useful at least).
Agreed. Actually rollable screens would be amazing. But it doesn't mean a halfway step in technology is half as much amazing.
Yeah but you gotta get there somehow.
Not really. R&D is pretty independent from business results of particular inventions (as long as the company as a whole stays afloat).
Even if it's just a first step, I'm fine with it.
As a research project, me too. As an actual product - I just don't think the benefits justify the price and the potential (thanks to Samsung - actual and very real) durability issues.
Meh. If a research project actually sells (in decent numbers) why not?
I was speaking as a consumer. Of course it makes sense for a company to make whatever product they can sell, even dirty bottled water. But just because it sells doesn't mean that a product makes sense for the customer.
The first Apple/Android watches were an exercise in pointlessness. Today... they still are
but I see a few people wearing them and they say it's great. Who am I to judge?Not having to take the phone out of your pocket to see what notification you've got is pretty convenient.
There are worse crimes in consumer tech
Of course, but that doesn't make other bad products any less bad.
There is merit in novelties.
There is merit in there being novelties. Not necessarily in particular novelties themselves.
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@hungrier said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Parody said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Unfortunately, neither large readers nor color ones have emerged
IIRC weren't there some early(ish) Kindles that were huge?
The Kindle DX models were (diagonally) 9.7"; Letter-sized paper is ~14" in the proper aspect ratio. I kept an eye on a couple of projects that were closer to Letter size but those didn't go anywhere. (They were intended for textbooks.)
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@Parody there was a Sony model aimed at university professors and professionals that was as large as an A4 sheet of paper (or close to it). You could annotate and do all sorts. It was quite capable. I would have really wanted one, but a) they only sold privately to universities and stuff and b) it cost close to $1k.
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@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Why haven't they gone with reversible USB plugs before 2014? Answer: it just so happened that they didn't. There isn't any deeper reason for that.
Because they needed to find a way to make them such that people still need to try to insert them 3 times when plugging things in.
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
it cost close to $1k
That doesn't sound very outrageous nowadays.
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Model DPT-RP1 is 13.3". But it's expensive, especially anywhere in Euroland (where available at all). Even the smaller 10" model is.
And for that the pen (as opposed to Remarkable) is not tilt or pressure sensitive, has to be charged for some reason, separately at that, and someone on the internets says it runs out of charge about 10x faster than advertised.
Remarkable, on the other hand, has tilt and pressure, but it lacks in editing capabilities.
The software of both - color me surprised - is rather shit. Afaik, neither lets you mount the storage directly. You have to use their crapware for the simple task of copying files.Even so, I'd consider either of them if they were to cost about 50% less.
@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
That doesn't sound very outrageous nowadays.
Maybe not for professionals who would rely on it as the main instrument of work. Otherwise, it does to me.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Otherwise, it does to me.
Don't get me wrong - I'd never spend more than $300 on a phone myself. But looking at prices of current "flagship" phones, $1k looks pretty okay.
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I am disappoint. I was expecting a picture of a folding wooden table.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
The software of both - color me surprised - is rather shit. Afaik, neither lets you mount the storage directly. You have to use their crapware for the simple task of copying files.
Software on e-readers isn't generally very good, and software on Sony products isn't generally very good either. So when you combine both together....
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@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Not having to take the phone out of your pocket to see what notification you've got is pretty convenient
Trousers with see through pockets ... BAM ... problem solved.
Damnit ... should have patented that first
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@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Gąska said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Gąska you said, there's no reason to make a foldable screen when there are alternatives.
No, I didn't.
Yeah, there's no reason to buy one. Big difference.
Yes, it is.
If they make it, they will buy it. Somebody at least. Of course it can bomb badly. (Or, if it's Samsung, 🔥).
I see (actually, I didn't see the video, but I trust your word) that there are alternatives. Fine. But they're not foldable (which is worth nil, or everything, depending on how much you're attracted to the idea).
Rather than ideas, I'm attracted to the possibilities the idea opens. Foldable screen is a lot of problems for little to no benefit.
Meh. What are the problems?
Production cost (I have no idea what the figures are like, but it feels like it's one or two orders of magnitude more expensive than regular screens) and very high fragility even by smartphone standards.
Production cost will be high, but not that high in the total BOM. Fragility is partly offset by the fact that you can fold it?
And I can see one clear benefit, certainly for graphic artists (even two gapless screens are going to feel like two screens).
This is the only use case I can think of where it might (MIGHT) make sense. Although I'm not sure if being able to fold a 14" tablet into 10" when not in use would matter much. Now, if we were talking about 25"+ tablets, then I admit it would make much more sense - folding those in half greatly increases portability, since you can now stuff it in a regular backpack.
I've seen pockets that pass as bags these days. And bags filled to the brim with all kinds of shit.Plus, why haven't they gone with such an alternative in the first place?
Why haven't they gone with reversible USB plugs before 2014? Answer: it just so happened that they didn't. There isn't any deeper reason for that.
I don't know and neither do you.
No, really. There actually wasn't any reason why they couldn't make one earlier. They just didn't.
If it's screens we're talking about, I think they had to improve OLEDs to begin with.
USB plugs had the problem of retrocompatibility.
PC plugs - yes (and these are still non-reversible). But portable devices have always had non-standard plugs of all kinds. And it's not like USB-C was the first time since 1996 that IEC has designated a new standard plug shape.
Yeah but none survived except USB. As an aside, I would have loved FireWire to become more widespread. I'd still be able to use my professional sound card with a laptop.
Foldable screens may one day become rollable (which is somewhat useful at least).
Agreed. Actually rollable screens would be amazing. But it doesn't mean a halfway step in technology is half as much amazing.
Yeah but you gotta get there somehow.
Not really. R&D is pretty independent from business results of particular inventions (as long as the company as a whole stays afloat).
The way I see it, prototypes (for phones too) attracted a great deal of interest, so Lenovo will have said, let's make a few and sell them if only just to show off.
Even if it's just a first step, I'm fine with it.
As a research project, me too. As an actual product - I just don't think the benefits justify the price and the potential (thanks to Samsung - actual and very real) durability issues.
Meh. If a research project actually sells (in decent numbers) why not?
I was speaking as a consumer. Of course it makes sense for a company to make whatever product they can sell, even dirty bottled water. But just because it sells doesn't mean that a product makes sense for the customer.
The first Apple/Android watches were an exercise in pointlessness. Today... they still are
but I see a few people wearing them and they say it's great. Who am I to judge?Not having to take the phone out of your pocket to see what notification you've got is pretty convenient.
Is such a convenience worth €250-350? Smartwatches such as the Pebble were better. Lasted longer, much cheaper. Alas...
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Fragility is partly offset by the fact that you can fold it?
As has been shown by Samsung, the fold itself is the weak point, especially when you keep folding it (and why wouldn't you). Although in this specific case, there was a large share of idiots who didn't read the manual and tore a core structural part of their phones off. I'd love to read a folding resistance test from someone who hasn't removed that tiny plastic film from the screen.
If it's screens we're talking about
Well, that particular statement was about cable plugs. But go on.
Yeah but none survived except USB.
And iPhone. Don't forget iPhone, the destroyer of absolute statements.
Is such a convenience worth €250-350?
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=1JV-00FJ-00003
$79.99 at the moment of writing.
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@Gąska is this not IoS? Even if it doesn't have direct access to Internet, what's support and stuff? Battery life etc.
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Gąska is this not IoS?
Not to my knowledge. It's Xiaomi, it's a serious brand in Eastern Europe.
Even if it doesn't have direct access to Internet
It connects to Android or iPhone via Bluetooth. It has clock, pulse meter, notifications, weather and bunch of other shit I don't care about.
what's support and stuff? Battery life etc.
I found one review where they've said 10 days of heavy use made it drop to 60% (so you can extrapolate it to over 3 weeks of total battery life). I don't know how it compares to other smartwatches, but I'd say that's decent lifetime.
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Yeah but none survived except USB. As an aside, I would have loved FireWire to become more widespread. I'd still be able to use my professional sound card with a laptop.
Sadly, Apple screwed that up for everyone. At least the IEEE 1394 port on this machine works so I can still use my video capture box.
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@Zerosquare said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Software on e-readers isn't generally very good, and software on Sony products isn't generally very good either. So when you combine both together....
E-readers are made for DRM, as are Sony products in general. Any ability to read/consume content is purely a coincidence.
Case in point, consider the NUUT reader from... uh... 2006-ish? Worked perfectly. It was also devoid of any DRM support, so I was limited to reading datasheets and Project Gutenberg books, but, y'know... it just worked (tm).
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@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Zerosquare said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Software on e-readers isn't generally very good, and software on Sony products isn't generally very good either. So when you combine both together....
E-readers are made for DRM, as are Sony products in general. Any ability to read/consume content is purely a coincidence.
Case in point, consider the NUUT reader from... uh... 2006-ish? Worked perfectly. It was also devoid of any DRM support, so I was limited to reading datasheets and Project Gutenberg books, but, y'know... it just worked (tm).
What is your point exactly? I have a Sony e-reader and it just works (tm) quite well. I've been able to read every and any e-book I wanted to read, going from e-books I bought online to .epub files I created myself using Sigil
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@acrow cough Calibre cough
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@admiral_p said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Calibre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9kVmoNtsVE
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@bjolling Well, @Zerosquare was commenting on how e-book readers, especially Sony's, don't work as expected. I just pointed out the most propable cause. I have no personal experience of Sony's e-readers, and
researching, so let's just diss Sony. They've done something to deserve it anyway, if they've stayed true to form.
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@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@bjolling Well, @Zerosquare was commenting on how e-book readers, especially Sony's, don't work as expected. I just pointed out the most propable cause. I have no personal experience of Sony's e-readers, and
researching, so let's just diss Sony. They've done something to deserve it anyway, if they've stayed true to form.My biggest issue is that the reader is slow, especially for PDFs. Another is that it feels clumsy to use it for anything but reading. For example, I can annotate books but it takes more actions than I would like and they are difficult to manage and review afterwards. Everything is behind menus behind menus ... it's probably menus all the way down.
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@bjolling said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@bjolling Well, @Zerosquare was commenting on how e-book readers, especially Sony's, don't work as expected. I just pointed out the most propable cause. I have no personal experience of Sony's e-readers, and
researching, so let's just diss Sony. They've done something to deserve it anyway, if they've stayed true to form.My biggest issue is that the reader is slow, especially for PDFs. Another is that it feels clumsy to use it for anything but reading. For example, I can annotate books but it takes more actions than I would like and they are difficult to manage and review afterwards. Everything is behind menus behind menus ... it's probably menus all the way down.
The saddest thing is, that's not specific to Sony. All consumer products, from every manufacturer, have slow menus now. Especially TVs, but I've had the misfortune to have to operate a slow-menu'd printer and even a coffee maker. We have available to us the fastest processors ever, and all menus are slower than ever.
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@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@bjolling said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@bjolling Well, @Zerosquare was commenting on how e-book readers, especially Sony's, don't work as expected. I just pointed out the most propable cause. I have no personal experience of Sony's e-readers, and
researching, so let's just diss Sony. They've done something to deserve it anyway, if they've stayed true to form.My biggest issue is that the reader is slow, especially for PDFs. Another is that it feels clumsy to use it for anything but reading. For example, I can annotate books but it takes more actions than I would like and they are difficult to manage and review afterwards. Everything is behind menus behind menus ... it's probably menus all the way down.
The saddest thing is, that's not specific to Sony. All consumer products, from every manufacturer, have slow menus now. Especially TVs, but I've had the misfortune to have to operate a slow-menu'd printer and even a coffee maker. We have available to us the fastest processors ever, and all menus are slower than ever.
"But we're just syncing your most recent menu choices to the cloud. Everyone benefits when we can later use it to upgrade your experience!"
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@JBert said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@bjolling said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@bjolling Well, @Zerosquare was commenting on how e-book readers, especially Sony's, don't work as expected. I just pointed out the most propable cause. I have no personal experience of Sony's e-readers, and
researching, so let's just diss Sony. They've done something to deserve it anyway, if they've stayed true to form.My biggest issue is that the reader is slow, especially for PDFs. Another is that it feels clumsy to use it for anything but reading. For example, I can annotate books but it takes more actions than I would like and they are difficult to manage and review afterwards. Everything is behind menus behind menus ... it's probably menus all the way down.
The saddest thing is, that's not specific to Sony. All consumer products, from every manufacturer, have slow menus now. Especially TVs, but I've had the misfortune to have to operate a slow-menu'd printer and even a coffee maker. We have available to us the fastest processors ever, and all menus are slower than ever.
"But we're just syncing your most recent menu choices to the cloud. Everyone benefits when we can later use it to upgrade your experience!"
That reminds me, I've got a Thermomix which does do those receipes via an internet server. That part is actually working fine. However, their receipe app also offers a shopping list. And said shopping list does not work offline because any changes (e.g. from "still needed" to "in basket") is synced immediately and it doesn't deal very well with connectivity issues.
Now take three guesses on how usable that app is inside my nearest superstore where I can find the more exotic ingredients I sometimes need? Especially if said superstore has lots of ferroconcrete in its ceiling because it's located one floor underground?
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@Rhywden Out of all the types of app out there, grocery list is one of the simplest ones, that shouldn't need any online connectivity. It can help by syncing with some online service, looking up prices, etc. but it should never be necessary.
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@hungrier said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@Rhywden Out of all the types of app out there, grocery list is one of the simplest ones, that shouldn't need any online connectivity. It can help by syncing with some online service, looking up prices, etc. but it should never be necessary.
But then how can your SO add items to the grocery list while you're already driving out?
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@PleegWat
Doesn't matter. I'd have already bought 10 packs of milk
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@hungrier It's also a bit dumb on occasion. The receipe sometimes state: "You can either use A or, if you can't find it, B will also do" with ingredient A usually being a bit more uncommon.
What does the app do if you add the ingredients to the grocery list? Only add A.
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@Rhywden said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
Now take three guesses on how usable that app is inside my nearest superstore where I can find the more exotic ingredients I sometimes need? Especially if said superstore has lots of ferroconcrete in its ceiling because it's located one floor underground?
Very usable.
I feel confident, if I'm wrong, I have 2 more guesses.
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@hungrier said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
shouldn't need any online connectivity
Heresy.
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@acrow said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
@hungrier said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
shouldn't need any online connectivity
Heresy.
What also floats in water?
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@bjolling said in Foldable Tablet gets us.... something we already have?:
What also floats in water?
Black balls.
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