Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language
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@admiral_p oh. so according to your definition, a composer, no matter how good his compositions are, can't ever be "an accomplished musician"
got it. that's about the same level of smug (and mistake) you exhibited in the rest of your comments about music in here.
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@sh_code it sounds like you do want to be an asshole
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@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@sh_code it sounds like you do want to be an asshole
no, really, this is just sincerely precisely the only type of music i am unable to percieve as musical in any way, no matter how i try. i can imagine it as a moment in a soundtrack of some psychological horror, or something abstract, disturbing and completely off-the-rails bonkers, like the videotape from The Ring, because there it would serve to reinforce the completely dysharmonic, dysrythmic disturbing impression. but as a standalone music, that is supposed to bring any kind of aesthetic pleasure or engagement (except the theoretical intellectual one from recognizing all those advanced techniques), my brain is unable and unwilling to process and accept this genre as music.
you're welcome to be an asshole back, my song is linked two or three comments above, and to be honest, it would be interesting to hear an opinion of someone with a musical sense utterly incompatible with mine.
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@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@sh_code it sounds like you do want to be an asshole
Welcome! You’ll fit in nicely 😈
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@sh_code that's not what I was trying to say. It's true that I instinctively tend to see musicians and composers as two different categories with two different skillsets (musicians specialise on an instrument or two, whereas composers have wider scope) but they are at least equally important in music. If anything I see composers on a higher level, and in fact for every Paganini and Rachmaninoff (who was both actually) and Horowitz and Pavarotti there are five times as many Mozarts, Schuberts, Beethovens and Bachs, as well as Puccini, Verdi, Rossini, etc. I see composers as coaches and musicians as players. You wouldn't say that a coach is a minor figure at all. They're essential (the few experiments of players managing themselves have almost always ended miserably). I guess that anyway you could say that composers are musicians (again, I don't see the term "composer" as a lesser figure compared to musicians, and I'll tell you what, I actually wanted and still want to seriously study music composition, although reality kicks in and so I'll never do it). All I've said still applies to composers. An example: I don't care too much for Hans Zimmer, who almost seems to be capable of bombast only. The best soundtrack composer ever in my opinion is Ennio Morricone (whom I had a pleasure to watch live just last year) and he's a much more complete and inventive composer. Nino Rota is another brilliant composer. They both happen to be fellow Italians and I'm "proud" of this (if it even makes sense), but they'd have been all time greats nonetheless. Within the Italian scene there are also other figures such as Umiliani, Trovajoli who, while usually keeping within the jazzy/funk scene, are worthy of mention. So no. Drop the needless aggression and go and play with yourself for a while.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
I don't care too much for Hans Zimmer, who almost seems to be capable of bombast only.
What do you think of John Williams?
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@sh_code hey no problem then dude. i probably sounded unnecessarily glib. i don't think i can make my music be your thing. i don't want to write music that people have to think about to enjoy because a lot of that music is really terrible. i would prefer to write the kind of music that has visceral appeal for people, so if it doesn't have that then i fucked up. (explaining it this way makes me feel like a dentist explaining how it won't hurt when I pull a tooth!)
your music is pretty good. it's not the sort of thing i am that into. i think most of the problems are polish problems, not conceptual. and like, you obviously have a good sense of contour. your instrumentation choices are all fine. except that i think the drumstep "very slow alternation between kick and snare" thing is a little old hat.
if you have a synthesizer keyboard. try playing the notes in the F# harmonic minor scale, starting from C#? sorry, i'm kind of trying to backdoor you into theory here. i think a lot of your chords can be made out of just notes that are in that scale, but a few times you walk into a different related scale. (the F# major scale starting from C# -- aka f# mixolydian)
it's a little awkward to walk into a scale and walk right back into the original scale without comment, so if you paid more attention to what scale you were in it might feel less awkward when you run into that problem. (mostly in the section after you introduce the big block chords)
a piece i like a lot in a related scale is aztec by spor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGBJTwRTrCs. it falls into the same category of "ambiguously ethnic," and its chord progression starts with almost the same cadence as yours (his goes Bmaj -> Cmaj, yours goes C#maj -> Bmin, which in his key would be like Bmaj -> Amin, which is basically the same as Cmaj)
(EDIT: somehow lost a paragraph while editing, sorry!)
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@HardwareGeek John Williams is great for the stuff he does. I find him more fun. He's quite "conservative" as a composer (rather, he's very Hollywoodian) but that's not a problem. His music is rarely pretentious or vulgar, it's just, yeah, fun and uplifting and memorable (great ear for melody). His best work is stuff that really fits the films he scores music for. He doesn't put himself over the film itself (whereas Zimmer tends to do so - not bad per se, but it's overbearing sometimes. One soundtrack I quite like was the one for The Gladiator, but that one too is sort of overproduced and sounds a bit dated/cliché). There was one film I can't remember now where he did a really cookie-cutter effort (I think it was Air Force One) but the film's a bit shite, he rushed the soundtrack in a week and he vowed never ever to take such a gig again.
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(in retrospect, in the above post i'm doing the thing people do where if they don't really like a thing, they analyze it! sorry, that's not really super respectful to the thing as you intended to make it.)
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@admiral_p To be fair, many of the films Zimmer has scored are action/superhero movies, which pretty much demand bombast. But he also scored Rain Man, Driving Miss Daisy, Thelma & Louise. I admit I'm not terribly familiar with their scores, but bombast would be out of character for the movie, and they wouldn't have been nominated for so many awards if the music worked against the film.
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@HardwareGeek it's not the bombast per se that gets me, it's his overreliance on heavy production and some of his trademark choices (the big drums, for instance) that grow tiresome to me. I said I don't care for him but he clearly knows what he does.
I heard parts of Thelma and Louise's soundtrack and they're functional pieces which work very well in the film, true. But they do sound dated.
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@sh_code said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
... not that i want to be an asshole (in this specific case), but... was it intentional to make it sound like all of the pretentious "contemporary classical" crap which i can't help but think is precisely the result of theory-laden bigheads who think that if it makes theoretical sense and uses lots of "advanced" theoretical "techniques", it automatically must be good music?
Your explanation is a little attacking, but I agree with your conclusion (see below). For what it's worth, @zekka has courage to let us hear his music, so it would be nice to act a bit encouraging in your critique.
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@sh_code it sounds like you do want to be an asshole
I would like to point out, that explaining music pros/cons is kinda hard, but I try it a bit more positive.
I actually love the style, but it's not coherent. I compare music to books; Every progression in the story has a action->reaction like behaviour, where the "situational status" is followed by relevant, "real-life-like" change to another "state of the story". The proven path from "exposition and rising action to a climax, followed by falling action to denoument".
In music, it is often deduced by the feeling it gives and "state-transitions" between the "building-blocks/pieces".
Best I can do is let you all listen to one of my favorite composers with (I think) the same sounding style of music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8X_aMT5z0A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYEooPeyz5MWould love to hear if you guys like/dislike these songs.
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@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
i think most of the problems are polish problems
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@Flips I find Einaudi quite mundane, not because he isn't "out there" (I dislike most "avantgarde" music, even though his stuff is "extremely safe" from a compositional point of view), but because his stuff is competent, yet cliché-ridden "melancholic" soundtrack music, with the saccharine pianos, dramatic crescendos, pause, a single soft string phrase adding even more suspension, piano again repeating the main theme but faster with a mp/mf string backing and some staccato maybe, etc. I put him in the same category as Yann Tiersen for instance. I have absolutely nothing against them, it's just that they appear to be churning out a product and not a soulful work of art.
Who I really find offensive (actually, I don't, I'm totally unimpressed, but I realise it's all a sham) is this guy here:
if anything because he has this fake public persona as a pseudo-autistic child prodigy who wears t-shirts and Converse shoes (he's well past 40) and who had to play the piano in secret because his parents didn't want him to (it's all false apparently). And he calls himself the future of classical music and people who "don't know any better" actually fall for it (not talking about tastes or expertise etc. but just people that are not really familiar with classical music in general and probably don't really like classical/orchestral/symphonic music that much and find themselves attracted to these accessible pretty little ditties). He conducted an orchestra (a big philharmonic one) in Parliament. The guy doesn't even know what conduction is and he just jumped around in front of the orchestra theatrically swaying his arms laughing and grimacing and looking like an idiot. Of course the song was the national anthem, which the orchestra could play eyes closed. I frankly somewhat snigger at the idea of the stuck-up twats in the orchestra being "conducted" (from their point of view, humiliated and derided) by somebody who is relatively famous through smoke and mirrors. (A famous violinist here in Italy famously went on an angry rant against him after this, calling him a pathetic hack who is the emblem of modern corruption and who epitomises the precipitous fall of musical and intellectual standards in modern society, looking a little bit like an old salty relic). But yes, in this case he is a total disgrace. I accept the primacy of image over the actual art in popular music. I don't really tolerate such ugliness in what really belongs to a higher sphere. It feels like a farce, which it ultimately is. The temptation to just laugh and point at the music conservatory wankers for being made such fools is strong, but Allevi is intellectual decadence. O tempora, o mores!
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@sh_code said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@admiral_p oh. so according to your definition, a composer, no matter how good his compositions are, can't ever be "an accomplished musician"
got it. that's about the same level of smug (and mistake) you exhibited in the rest of your comments about music in here.
Uh...I took it as him using the word "musician" to refer to someone who plays an instrument. Therefore if the composer doesn't play an instrument he wouldn't be a musician here at all. I'm all for yelling at @admiral_p when he deserves it but this seems pretty straightforward and not smug at all.
And it seems like a pretty cromulent use of the word, too.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
he calls himself the future of classical music
Is it what he's supposed to be demonstrating in the video you posted?
Because it sounds like a (decent) pop song. Not at all like classical music, much less the future of it.EDIT: I saw on Wikipedia that he has been compared to Richard Cleyderman. It's... not really a compliment.
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@sh_code said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
(for put up or shut up reasons, here is what my music sounds like: mov8.mp3)
... not that i want to be an asshole (in this specific case), but... was it intentional to make it sound like all of the pretentious "contemporary classical" crap which i can't help but think is precisely the result of theory-laden bigheads who think that if it makes theoretical sense and uses lots of "advanced" theoretical "techniques", it automatically must be good music?
My impression was that it had some interesting bits but then quickly changed away when it found something, which wasn't pleasant to me. His description as "jam session" seemed really appropriate to me. It was like listening to bits of different songs glued together.
The closest I've ever come to touching "music theory" was reading Gödel, Escher, Bach. Which makes sense to me mathematically if not musically.
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@Zerosquare exactly. It's a pretty little ditty. But he markets it (I think it's safe to say) as classical music. For obvious reasons (to me).
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@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
i probably sounded unnecessarily glib.
( also @Flips )
your response was appropriate to what my response sounded like. but basically I felt I had two choices - avoid risking sound like an asshole, and in doing that, not actually say anything, or be honest, and most likely sound like an asshole, and then have a chance to explain myself better. i went for the honesty, otherwise there was no point in writing the comment at all.
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
i would prefer to write the kind of music that has visceral appeal for people, so if it doesn't have that then i fucked up.
well, it certainly did have a very visceral effect on me (thus the aggressive-sounding comment), just not a pleasant one. not sure if I can explain this, or even provide an example, but ...there's what I would call "conventional unpleasant music"? a music which conveys and causes unpleasant atmosphere, but is still ...harmonic, and structured enough to be nice to listen to ( for me ). someone mentioned Hans Zimmer, and I already mentioned The Ring, so as a very meek example of that, Seven Days comes to mind. lots of dubstep is also partially, or completely in this cathegory.
but there's a point beyond which my brain just can't discern any kind of pattern in melody or rythm, and it all just breaks down for me into a bunch of tones with nothing to hold on to. (btw I thought dubstep was non-musical noise for about 16 years, until one day, it clicked, and since then, dubstep/drumstep/glitch hop and such are basically my favorite genres. complex and dynamic enough to not be boring and predictable, but still very clearly structured so that recognizing that structure and "synchronizing" with it is a pleasure).
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
and like, you obviously have a good sense of contour
(thanks). contour, I assume, is the thing my amateur vocabulary tends to call "flow"/"wavyness". and yeah, that's one of the reasons why my perception of music breaks down where it does - i do need everything in the song to somehow cooperate with everything else, to create more or less a single, unified flow, mass of sounds which (if you want) can be percieved together as a single, very complex, multilayered sound across the whole song (linked is the first time I ever properly managed to do that, i think)
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
except that i think the drumstep "very slow alternation between kick and snare" thing is a little old hat.
yes, that's why I (think I) used it only as the backbone for the drums and tried to play around on it with the second and third layer of drums, but in that specific song, i wanted it to flow largely non-intrusively, it was supposed to be "meditative" to a degree, after all, so i wanted people to be able to flow with it effortlessly.
now this whole next section of your comment, with F# harmonics, and such, "doesn't look like anything to me" (Westworld reference =D), but that's fine. also, I don't have a synthesizer, all my writing is mouse clicking. i wanted to get one already, because it becomes tiresome how long it takes to write the stuff, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
sorry, i'm kind of trying to backdoor you into theory here.
that's perfectly fine, I kinda enjoy reading that stuff even though (or maybe because) I don't understand it. Basically, I had a chance to learn at least a bit of the theory properly, but I actively refused, I thought "it would modify my natural feel/instinct for the music in a way I don't want to risk", and I still stand by that, but leisurely reading how much analysis can be done on anything, without the pressure for me to understand it, is still interesting.
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
it's a little awkward to walk into a scale and walk right back into the original scale without comment, so if you paid more attention to what scale you were in it might feel less awkward when you run into that problem. (mostly in the section after you introduce the big block chords)
not entirely sure which notes you mean (although I have my guess), providing timecodes would tell me more, but nevermind. there's about one or two tones which I agree are outright wrong, but the other ones are wholly intentional.
yeah, spor is great :)
@zekka said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
(in retrospect, in the above post i'm doing the thing people do where if they don't really like a thing, they analyze it! sorry, that's not really super respectful to the thing as you intended to make it.)
no, that's awesome and great, basically that's what I was hoping for when I said you're "welcome to be asshole back" =D. regardless of whether people like or dislike a piece of music, I love when they analyze it. and I hate when they don't, and just say "i like/dislike it", and that's all. when they're willing to analyze and talk about it, it feels like I'm learning something about their perception, which is fascinating. unless they use proper theory terms, because then I don't understand =D
i seriously appreciate you doing that, though.
@Flips said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Best I can do is let you all listen to one of my favorite composers with (I think) the same sounding style of music.
to me, that's not in any way remotely similar to zekka's style. except both use piano. =D
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Uh...I took it as him using the word "musician" to refer to someone who plays an instrument.
yes, and that was precisely my main beef with it. he uses that word in that meaning, because the definition fits him. and that's why I called it smug. to me, a musician is anyone who can produce music (on which at least some people can agree is music). or, a variant which mixes subjectivity into it, musician is anyone who can produce good music. by any means, in any way. therefore him deriving the definition from himself and purely his own experience/skills sounds pretty smug to me still.
it's as if he was a C programmer working on embedded systems and therefore his definition of the word "programmer" would be "anyone who programs embedded systems in C".
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
cromulent
...that's a pretty cromulent word to say cromulent.
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
My impression was that it had some interesting bits but then quickly changed away when it found something, which wasn't pleasant to me. His description as "jam session" seemed really appropriate to me.
my impression was that my brain was unable to parse out any bits larger than the separate notes themselves.
(please not that I've switched to the appropriate subjective language, "my brain was unable")
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@sh_code said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
If you can't express yourself in a natural language you are a bad programmer.
please express matrix transformations of a set of vectors required to display a rotating 3d model in a natural language.
Turn the middle side topwise
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@zekka oh, i forgot! show me something else you did, as far on the other end of the spectrum from the first one, as you have, but something you're still proud of, or like it the most.
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@hungrier said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@sh_code said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
If you can't express yourself in a natural language you are a bad programmer.
please express matrix transformations of a set of vectors required to display a rotating 3d model in a natural language.
Turn the middle side topwise
exactly. thanks for hammering the point in for me :)
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@sh_code said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Uh...I took it as him using the word "musician" to refer to someone who plays an instrument.
yes, and that was precisely my main beef with it. he uses that word in that meaning, because the definition fits him.
IT'S THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD. /@Gąska
and that's why I called it smug. to me, a musician is anyone who can produce music (on which at least some people can agree is music). or, a variant which mixes subjectivity into it, musician is anyone who can produce good music. by any means, in any way. therefore him deriving the definition from himself and purely his own experience/skills sounds pretty smug to me still.
You sound like a lot of fun at parties.
it's as if he was a C programmer working on embedded systems and therefore his definition of the word "programmer" would be "anyone who programs embedded systems in C".
No, it's not that at all. It's like if he didn't include the guy who designed the system but didn't write a single line of code as a programmer. You're just projecting your baggage about this topic onto him.
@boomzilla said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
My impression was that it had some interesting bits but then quickly changed away when it found something, which wasn't pleasant to me. His description as "jam session" seemed really appropriate to me.
my impression was that my brain was unable to parse out any bits larger than the separate notes themselves.
(please not that I've switched to the appropriate subjective language, "my brain was unable")
I'm not sure what that means, exactly, but there were some interesting bits in there that were definitely longer than a single note. But probably didn't last for more than a second or two before it shifted away to something else.
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@sh_code I'll tell you straight away that I consider electronic producers who make music on a computer music professionals (artists) like anybody else. Closer to composers than to musicians (as in instrument players) because of the kind of work they do. I even respect DJs, who may not "play" an instrument but they still put up a show and it's not even that easy to do right. But yeah, you're projecting personal baggage, which is fine and understandable until you direct it towards me specifically. I'll restate my suggestion to go play with yourself for a while, and then get back to me.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
I even respect DJs, who may not "play" an instrument but they still put up a show and it's not even that easy to do right.
There are many DJs who edge into being arrangers/composers, some of whom are so good as to be actually awe-inspiring once you look at the detail.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Flips I find Einaudi quite mundane, not because he isn't "out there" (I dislike most "avantgarde" music, even though his stuff is "extremely safe" from a compositional point of view), but because his stuff is competent, yet cliché-ridden "melancholic" soundtrack music, with the saccharine pianos, dramatic crescendos, pause, a single soft string phrase adding even more suspension, piano again repeating the main theme but faster with a mp/mf string backing and some staccato maybe, etc. I put him in the same category as Yann Tiersen for instance. I have absolutely nothing against them, it's just that they appear to be churning out a product and not a soulful work of art.
I like Yann Tiersen too!
Look.. I don't know any better then what my heart tells me. Even tough Einaudi is "musically a low-class componist" (paraphrasing), my heart (sometimes) just wants cliché-ridden melancholic music, apparently. And by the way, life is just a stack of pseudo-randomly generated cliches, if you ask me.
Still it's interesting to know, Einaudi is classical's variant of a money-grabber pop-artist.
I am wondering what you think about another "classical artist" I like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuWpbTt2_p0
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@dkf yeah, many of them do really amazing stuff. On a sidenote, there's a British lad who likes to do mashups of popular songs, nothing he does it is particularly spectacular from a technical point of view but many of them are quite fun:
The best one has been struck down unfortunately :(
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@Flips I'm not familiar with him to be honest. But I think you got the tone of my comment wrong. I respect those who make cliché-ridden products for a living (and I can also get behind your idea of life being a collection of clichés). I don't think there is such a concept as "money-grabbing pop artist" either, or rather, it's looking at things the wrong way. Music can also be a product and many musicians, artists, composers etc. deliberately decide not to be artsy because it's not their final goal. I think of, I dunno, Rihanna, Justin Bieber (who is actually very good at what he does), or to make an home-grown reference once again, Andrea Bocelli, powering Italian restaurants all over the world.
Most of all, I respect the tastes of those who are moved or entertained by their stuff. Music is a spectrum, like everything else these days
and there are many different levels of appreciation. There is also personal mood as an element. Sometimes you want precisely that kind of stuff even though it is low-brow. Let's say that I am just personally annoyed when artists who, in true postmodernist fashion, desecrate their "branch" of art (which is OK) but demand to be considered as part of the category they are desecrating. We, it's hard to put this in words.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
A natural language is not constructed by committee
Two words: Académie française
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well, the issue with constructing natural language by committee is that natural language has to pass through infant brains, and infant brains don't know how to read specifications.
like, modern hebrew is supposed to look a lot like liturgical hebrew and in practice they're pretty mutually intelligible, but not really the same. you can still kinda read the eddas if you speak icelandic but i'm told the phonology has significantly changed
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Justin Bieber (who is actually very good at what he does)
Ok, now I know you're full of
. 
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@HardwareGeek he's a good performer. I don't think he writes his own stuff really (I hope not!), but like many other performers, he knows how to perform. Professionally speaking, what can I say?
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@Jaloopa said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
A natural language is not constructed by committee
Two words: Académie française
Now if only anyone payed attention to them...
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@HardwareGeek I don't think he writes his own stuff really (I hope not!)
He has exactly one good song and that’s written by Ed Sheeran. Coincidence? I think not.
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@Benjamin-Hall it's paid.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Jaloopa said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
A natural language is not constructed by committee
Two words: Académie française
Now if only anyone payed attention to them...
We've been thru this more than once already. Using the Académie Française to support the idea that natural languages can be constructed is like using PHP 3 to support the idea that programming languages can be designed elegantly.
(Actually, it's even worse: at least Rasmus Lerdorf is aware he's a bad developer, and has said so publicly.)
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@Zerosquare said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Jaloopa said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
A natural language is not constructed by committee
Two words: Académie française
Now if only anyone payed attention to them...
We've been thru this more than once already. Using the Académie Française to support the idea that natural languages can be constructed is like using PHP 3 to support the idea that programming languages can be designed elegantly.
(Actually, it's even worse: at least Rasmus Lerdorf is aware he's a bad developer, and has said so publicly.)
Yeah. I was being sardonic there. It's a good thing that the French Academy is the tail trying to wag the dog. The french language does what people want it to and the academy reacts. It thinks its in charge (or it may have no such illusion), but it isn't.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
It thinks its in charge (or it may have no such illusion
They're just in it for the swords and fancy coats.
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@Jaloopa said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
A natural language is not constructed by committee
Two words: Académie française
We have three words in Poland: Rada Języka Polskiego. But for quite some time, their position has been "we accept everything that's commonly used as proper Polish".
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@HardwareGeek said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Justin Bieber (who is actually very good at what he does)
Ok, now I know you're full of
. He grew up in the last few years (especially his voice), from what I heard. Hopefully he won't be crashing Lamborghinis anymore.
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@HardwareGeek said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
Justin Bieber (who is actually very good at what he does)
Ok, now I know you're full of
. He grew up in the last few years (especially his voice), from what I heard. Hopefully he won't be crashing Lamborghinis anymore.
Ah. Well, I've been successful in not hearing him, and I'm quite happy to continue doing that.
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@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
We have three words in Poland: Rada Języka Polskiego. But for quite some time, their position has been "we accept everything that's commonly used as proper Polish".
IIRC, Polish was constructed in its modern form in the 19th century, based on existing languages used in the area and a whole bunch of theory of how languages worked. This isn't something I know for sure, but was according to a friend who was a student of languages (and a philosopher, and a — very good — system admin for the day job).
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@HardwareGeek said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
swords
I really want to believe that at some point, a swordfight has broken out over a word.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
I don't think [Justin Bieber] writes his own stuff really (I hope not!)
In a non-scientific study I just conducted on this source material, he has a writer’s credit for every song I checked.
How much of it he’ll actually have written is open to question, of course, but it seems he’s more involved with writing his songs than a lot of other famous singers are.
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@sloosecannon said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@HardwareGeek said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
swords
I really want to believe that at some point, a swordfight has broken out over a word.
I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out that wars have been fought over a word.
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@dkf said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
@Gąska said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
We have three words in Poland: Rada Języka Polskiego. But for quite some time, their position has been "we accept everything that's commonly used as proper Polish".
IIRC, Polish was constructed in its modern form in the 19th century, based on existing languages used in the area and a whole bunch of theory of how languages worked. This isn't something I know for sure, but was according to a friend who was a student of languages (and a philosopher, and a — very good — system admin for the day job).
That's some other language. Polish existed from (arguably) 9th century and changed organically until today. Divisions between periods of its development are somewhat arbitrary, chosen among the lines of 'by then language changed enough' and some are just historical events having nothing to do with language itself.
- pre 10th century - pre-written language
- 10th - 15th century - old Polish, the initial form
- 15th - 1772 - medium Polish, parts of pre-slavian roots are lost
- 1772 - 1939 - new Polish, Latin is phased out of education system
- 1945 - today - modern Polish
Last quarter of 18th century is when the language is codified for education system, and throughout 18th century it becomes more uniform regardless of geography - but none of it was constructed.
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@levicki said in Microsoft debuts Bosque – a yet another pointless programming language:
What I am saying is this -- if you are serious about using a DSLR, then you have to spend time and effort in order to commit good command of a DSLR into your muscle memory. In other words, you need to practice (i.e. use it a lot).
My hobby isn’t photography, but I do have the occasional time when I want or need to take better-quality photographs than I can with the tools I normally use. This means borrowing a DSLR camera from a relative, and then struggling with the thing to make it do what I want it to.
At the same time, I’m pretty certain that if I were to borrow my father’s old 35 mm camera, which is basically the late ’60s equivalent to a low-end DSLR, I could take pictures with it that are exactly the way I want to with a DSLR, without having to fight the camera. This despite not having used that camera in about 20 years.
My point is, I think, pretty much the one Blakey tended to make about programming languages: instead of making them easier to use, they’re being made more difficult and this is touted as a good thing rather than frowned upon.
in the end it is all in the commitment, and that's what people of today are avoiding at all costs
I object to being grouped with today’s no-attention-span youth. At the same time, I don’t think that requiring people to master a subject first before being allowed to actually go and do it is silly. I want to take photographs of something I have in front of me now, I don’t want to spend three weeks learning the ins and outs of a camera before I can.
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But that's precisely what point-and-shoot are for? You usually don't buy a DSLR if you don't already know about photography.
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@Zerosquare I do know about photography — at least well enough to know what I want to do and approximately how to do it. My main problem is that your typical DSLR camera gets in the way of doing that by its complicated UI. Yes, I would get better with it if I were to use one more often — but I don’t, partly for vicious-circle reasons (I don’t use it because I don’t get along with it, and I won’t learn how to get along with it if I don’t use it).
Point-and-shoot cameras are not good for taking photographs of scale models. You need adjustable depth of field and good macro performance for that, which those cameras don’t tend to offer. (In fact, I find my iPad better than a point-and-shoot camera for this, mainly because the screen is big enough that you can see very well what your photo will end up like.)
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Fair enough.
