Fuck this place
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@Deadfast the Garage leaks. Even with the assumption that the rest of the forum is "civilised" (the main difference is just that there is less name-calling and shitposting really) the Garage can (and demonstrably will) cause mutual (or even just one-sided) antipathy, for little or no benefit. If you slightly try to gently nudge the Garage towards being less "toxic" (or infantile if you prefer) maybe this doesn't happen.
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@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
FOR POSTERITY: If you want to see what kind of deranged assholes people on this forum really are, check out the garage.
You do realise you're tarring yourself with that brush.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
And the fact that a person who usually only votes and can't interact through voting would stop interacting isn't really a large loss of value
Oh, and thanks for calling me pointless
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@Deadfast said in Fuck this place:
@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
You're right (maybe) but you're missing the point that when likes are present, they influence behavior. No they don't determine it, but they influence it.
I agree with that, although it's not the likes directly, it's the approval they signify.
Also you'll be really surprised how closely libertarianism can align itself with the far right.
And now you've lost me.
The memes that circulate in the garage, they are the same memes I was dealing with in the 2016 Twitter Wars, by and large; to me that indicates a degree of alignment.
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@DogsB said in Fuck this place:
@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
FOR POSTERITY: If you want to see what kind of deranged assholes people on this forum really are, check out the garage.
You do realise you're tarring yourself with that brush.
Oh yeah. I realized it when I wrote it and I realize it whenever I interact here.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
the Garage leaks
Only because people who are its most vocal opponents keep posting garage-worthy shit outside the garage.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
@Deadfast the Garage leaks. Even with the assumption that the rest of the forum is "civilised" (the main difference is just that there is less name-calling and shitposting really) the Garage can (and demonstrably will) cause mutual (or even just one-sided) antipathy, for little or no benefit. If you slightly try to gently nudge the Garage towards being less "toxic" (or infantile if you prefer) maybe this doesn't happen.
So make it leak less, would be a better solution than trying to regulate it. I like having a festering petri dish available. It is interesting and sobering to see what kind of garbage ideas are getting traction there.
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@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
you're missing the point that when likes are present, they influence behavior.
I'm not missing that point - which is why I said just for likes. There were plenty of dickheads in the CS days - it doesn't stop it being influenced, it just changes how it's influenced.
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@Gribnit how do you make it leak less?
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
@Gribnit how do you make it leak less?
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA you get the HAHAHAHHAHA oh shit, man...
HAHA you have the mods...
I can't get through it, sorry. Maybe there's another way, though. Self-moderation already seems to fail, though.
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@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
@Deadfast said in Fuck this place:
@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
You're right (maybe) but you're missing the point that when likes are present, they influence behavior. No they don't determine it, but they influence it.
I agree with that, although it's not the likes directly, it's the approval they signify.
Also you'll be really surprised how closely libertarianism can align itself with the far right.
And now you've lost me.
The memes that circulate in the garage, they are the same memes I was dealing with in the 2016 Twitter Wars, by and large; to me that indicates a degree of alignment.
I am not really familiar with what's going on on Twatter as I consider it to be a completely pointless platform. If what you say is true and there really was a war, my only regret is that it didn't end with a mutually assured destruction scenario going to fruition.
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@Gribnit and for the record, I have no problem at all with the Garage. I don't even mind the name-calling and the shitposting, even though it gets boring fast. But I see that whenever I read somebody else's Garage "debate" that it is basically unreadable after a page or so. So maybe there is something that can be done to cut down on the ugliest aspects.
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@Gribnit said in Fuck this place:
@Deadfast said in Fuck this place:
garage-worthy shit
What's that?
Anything political is a safe bet.
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@JBert said in Fuck this place:
@boomzilla @weng Any explanation what happened?
Or did he pull an @end and literally asked to be
Jeffedbanned?Wasn't me.
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@Deadfast the thing is that I don't just see it in the political threads when discussing politics, there is a definite change in attitude. Some people more than others.
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@admiral_p Yeah, it's likely some people hold grudges because of things that had happened in the garage but I think forum grudges are inevitable either way.
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@Weng said in Fuck this place:
@Polygeekery said in Fuck this place:
@blek said in Fuck this place:
@Weng Even though Polygeekery (or myself) might think you're a piece of shit, he's (we're) not fantasizing about shutting you down in any way. What does that say about you?
That he would be a totalitarian asshole, if only he had power.
See, that's where you're wrong. I do (or did the last time I clicked the hamburger button) have that power.
I just don't have any rules to support that.
In fact, I don't have any rules to work to besides spam. Literally none.
If they were my forums or I were acting on behalf of Alex, this place would get aggressively cropped back to technical topics to protect the brand. Period.
There's a difference between only having power that came delegated from some higher power, and truly having the power to have the final say. Having power that came delegated from some higher power, but the fact that you are technically able to abuse that power doesn't change the fact that you'll be held accountable if you do.
Jeff Atwood had the power to be a totalitarian asshole on this forum, but did not have the ultimate power to do it, and because he abused the power, he lost it.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
Why did it always have to be so "serious" with you?
It did look like a serious proposal by you. I try not to assume trolling unless it's an obvious joke.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
@Gribnit how do you make it leak less?
A moderation team that's a bit less
.
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@brie said in Fuck this place:
Jeff Atwood had the power to be a totalitarian asshole on this forum, but did not have the ultimate power to do it, and because he abused the power, he lost it.
Maybe we should migrate back to
- give everyone a common enemy.
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@loopback0 said in Fuck this place:
@brie said in Fuck this place:
Jeff Atwood had the power to be a totalitarian asshole on this forum, but did not have the ultimate power to do it, and because he abused the power, he lost it.
Maybe we should migrate back to
- give everyone a common enemy.A million times no.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
@Deadfast the Garage leaks. Even with the assumption that the rest of the forum is "civilised" (the main difference is just that there is less name-calling and shitposting really) the Garage can (and demonstrably will) cause mutual (or even just one-sided) antipathy, for little or no benefit. If you slightly try to gently nudge the Garage towards being less "toxic" (or infantile if you prefer) maybe this doesn't happen.
The garage only leaks because a few posters (the OP as a prime example, and same with another prominent poster who decries the toxicity) insist on posting hostile, vulgar, and generally garage worthy posts out here. From my perspective, it's the people most opposed to the garage who are the dominant cause of leakage.
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@Benjamin-Hall So the people who are pissed off are pissed off, you say. Fascinating. Wait, do they piss off all over because they are pissed off? This could be a corollary.
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@Gąska the proposal was serious. But you're evidently the kind of person that mourns for democracy and free speech when your mum tells you not to be so graphic about your sex life in front of your gran.
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@brie So is your argument that the only reason people don't abuse their power is because they may be held to account later?
Because that's a neat philosophical debate that doesn't need to be buried here.
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It'd be really neat if the poster base hadn't split. Then there'd be more of a variety of opinions circulating around the place. Sadly the poster base has already split.
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@Deadfast said in Fuck this place:
Also you'll be really surprised how closely libertarianism can align itself with the far right.
And now you've lost me.
Come on, the "libertarian-to-alt-right pipeline" is hardly a novel concept.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Fuck this place:
@Cursorkeys said in Fuck this place:
The garage has been leaking a lot and the easy solution for that is for the mods to do their job and put it back there. And it is a job, in reward for the poistion you have to donate your time, if you don't want that then elect another mod(s).
I don't agree at all with @Weng that he's powerless to act without some form of forum constitution, I've been a mod on a decently large forum and we didn't have a hard list of rules, you talked with other staff if it was something that might be borderline but otherwise you just acted with your best judgement. There doesn't seem to be much point in you existing as a mod otherwise?
It doesn't have to always be the stick either, edit the offending post and just warn the user, most people can take the hint.That would probably require more mods around here...
I could be a mod, though I would be on the rather lazy side of things, perhaps even for this forum.
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@Weng said in Fuck this place:
@brie So is your argument that the only reason people don't abuse their power is because they may be held to account later?
Because that's a neat philosophical debate that doesn't need to be buried here.
I think that it's at least a significant deterrent, and the "only reason" part is probably true of most would-be totalitarian assholes.
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@HardwareGeek said in Fuck this place:
I'd even go so far as to suggest that the Garage might have been a bad idea
As someone who has hidden the garage category, I have no idea why everyone is so upset
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@bb36e Seems like some people have rubbed each other the wrong way for a bit too long by the looks of this thread. I skipped/skimmed over the last page, but it seemed to be getting a bit less caustic and more decent discussion towards the end though.
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@Weng said in Fuck this place:
@Polygeekery Not sure why you think the population I would enjoy banning is "everyone who disagrees with me".
It's "everyone who acts like an abusive dickhead".
And before you say it, in this hypothetical future I am authorized by relevant policy to be an abusive dickhead.
Most people around here actually tend to be pretty decent at restricting their abusive dickheadness to the garage. For the most part, it works. A few people seem to have problems with it. In my opinion, that tends to correlate with an inability or unwillingness to understand how a well-intentioned person could have an opinion that strongly opposes one of their own strong opinions, and how they could argue it in anything other than bad faith.
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@anonymous234 said in Fuck this place:
@Deadfast said in Fuck this place:
Also you'll be really surprised how closely libertarianism can align itself with the far right.
And now you've lost me.
Come on, the "libertarian-to-alt-right pipeline" is hardly a novel concept.
What?
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@Karla I wasn't trying to be helpful.
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What? What happened? How did we get from "people calling each other assholes" (which is everyday business on this site) to Alt+
News Nazis etc?
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@marczellm Could the topic be... drifting? Regardless of the sheer enormity of the statement and what it would imply, it might be the case.
EDIT: The topic has just circled back to the OP, is all. Nothing to worry about.
EDIT EDIT: But now somehow with Nazis!
Disney Estate Uncovers Cache Of Anti-American Cartoons Intended For Release If Axis Won WWII
SAN FRANCISCO—In a shocking discovery certain to complicate the legacy of a national icon, the estate of Walt Disney announced Friday it had discovered a cache of anti-American cartoons the pioneering animator intended to release if the Axis Powers had triumphed in World War II.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Fuck this place:
The Garbage exists for trolling. If all anyone wants to do is suck their own cocks to "trigger the libs" and call me insane, then you can all fuck off and die.
@apapadimoulis I'd be the last person to say that the forums need to be cleaned up to be "civil", but they do need attention to stop them from being an alt-right hate filled Fox News talking point cesspool. If not for the user's sake, then at least for the sake of google algorithms. Get to know what your site is being associated with.
Fuck you, give me money. (Said the liberal lead government, because, after all, they know better how to spend your money than you do. Just ask them.)
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@antiquarian said in Fuck this place:
@Polygeekery said in Fuck this place:
That does not explain why you wish you could ban everyone who disagrees with you. Unless we go with the "Everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" definition, which actually does seem to fit for you.
From here it looks like he's fine with hate as long as it's coming from the left.
Really? You must be reading a different thread than me.
From here it looks like @Lorne-Kates being a total dickhead as usual, @Polygeekery being more of one than usual towards @Weng, and @Weng not in the slightest losing his calm by the attempts to trigger him.
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@DogsB said in Fuck this place:
We're back into pot kettle black territory. You're presenting this as : You think they're heading towards anarchy. They think you're heading towards an over legislated tyranny. The funny thing is one side in bringing in a wanking license and the other side likes living with a constitution. Look in the mirror before making grandiose statements.
No, actually, I'm thinking that this is pretty much evidence of the big pendulum which is soooo en vogue with humanity all over the ages: "There's too much of A" => Backlash => "Let's do the opposite of A!" => Backlash => "The opposite is dumb, let's go back to A again!"
Instead of trying to find a middle ground in the first place. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Free speech can be very dangerous - if you cannot recognize that then there's no further point in discussing this.
I mean, just look at the lawsuit against Alex Jones from the parents of Sandy Hook. Jones actually argues that he had "psychosis" - he clearly recognizes that his statements were morally wrong (even if he later continued to peddle his conspiracy theories in the deposit!)
And then he promptly once again tries the 1st amendment as his defensive shield.
Or take the anti-vaccination crowd. Another example where absolute free speech has shown to be an actual killer. Not to mention my own country's "glorious" past - Goebbels fascinated the crowds with his speech.
Basically, speech is a tool. It is not an end in and of itself - and it matters what you use it for. Too few or no rules - and you've got a problem because the "marketplace of ideas where the best one wins out" simply does not work. Too many rules and you have another problem, of oppression this time.
That goes for everything else as well. You've got freedom of movement - but that doesn't mean you can simply go everywhere you like. And so on and so forth. There's a limit to everything.
I mean, it's funny how "not being allowed to say something" and "being allowed to say something but immediately being insulted, shouted at and receive death threats over" look very similar. Both make most people shut up, after all.
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@Rhywden damn why can't I upvote this several times
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@Rhywden the problem is that censorship can end up emboldening the censored. It depends on how and where you do it and what you censor. I suppose you need a Germany-style piece of shit of a Führer to have the necessary guilt to enforce censorship of the Nazi ideology strongly (for instance). Having fascists really censored in Italy (fascism and apology of fascism are illegal technically) would never work.
Censoring antivaxxers would be surely counterproductive, as you would lend support to big pharma conspiracy theories.
I'm against censorship not necessarily on moral or ethical grounds, but also on practical ones.
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@admiral_p said in Fuck this place:
There are lots of pointless posts in the Garage whose only purpose is the "lol" factor.
YMBNH. That describes most, if not the entirety, of this forum. And most of the rest of the internet.
While many posts are pointless, many are informative, even in the Garage. I've learned from those discussions; I don't think any of them have actually changed my mind about anything, but at least I've learned the how people who see the world differently (i.e., wrongly
) think, and I've learned a few weak points in some of my beliefs where I need to do more research.It's only where people argue with strawmen, ignore or misunderstand what the other person wrote, accuse the other of arguing in bad faith, and finally start flinging personal insults that the Garage becomes toxic. There's plenty of room for lively, even heated, debate without becoming nasty. There is a difference between discouraging nastiness and excessive moderation, although I don't claim to have the interpersonal skills to navigate the happy place between.
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@HardwareGeek said in Fuck this place:
many are informative, even in the Garage. I've learned from those discussions
+1. A like alone was not enough.
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@Carnage said in Fuck this place:
@e4tmyl33t said in Fuck this place:
@Cursorkeys said in Fuck this place:
The garage has been leaking a lot and the easy solution for that is for the mods to do their job and put it back there. And it is a job, in reward for the poistion you have to donate your time, if you don't want that then elect another mod(s).
I don't agree at all with @Weng that he's powerless to act without some form of forum constitution, I've been a mod on a decently large forum and we didn't have a hard list of rules, you talked with other staff if it was something that might be borderline but otherwise you just acted with your best judgement. There doesn't seem to be much point in you existing as a mod otherwise?
It doesn't have to always be the stick either, edit the offending post and just warn the user, most people can take the hint.That would probably require more mods around here...
I could be a mod, though I would be on the rather lazy side of things, perhaps even for this forum.
That's almost the job description.
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@HardwareGeek said in Fuck this place:
It's only where people argue with ...[intentional omissision]... accuse the other of arguing in bad faith...[also intentional omission] that the Garage becomes toxic.
Wasn't the point of posting in Garage, that one waived good faith arguing? Did that change or am I just a dingus? I know I haven't been round these parts in awhile but I thought the point of the Garage was to leave you baggage at the door and Thunder-Dome-your-diffrences?
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@Carnage said in Fuck this place:
@bb36e Seems like some people have rubbed each other the wrong way for a bit too long by the looks of this thread. I skipped/skimmed over the last page, but it seemed to be getting a bit less caustic and more decent discussion towards the end though.
There was much angry name-calling between @Polygeekery and one or two left-leaning members — lots of heat generated; no ideas exchanged. However, unless there was something that happened outside the public eye (or in a thread I haven't gotten around to reading today), I think the other participants are equally deserving of a ban as @Polygeekery is. I don't think anyone involved deserves to be banned, but if @Polygeekery does, so do the people who were insulting him.
