Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements)
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@MrL it is one of my favorite games of all time.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL it is one of my favorite games of all time.
We have different tastes in games, obviously.
I find procedurally generated games boring and lazy on developer's part.
Same thing with 'roguelike' dying all the time - frustrating, boring and lazy.
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@Parody said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
LOAD "*",8,1
never looked so good.But then you need something to organise all the tapes in your collection…
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@dkf said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Parody said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
LOAD "*",8,1
never looked so good.But then you need something to organise all the tapes in your collection…
Device 8 is the first disk drive. And trust me, I have a lot of disk boxes. :)
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@MrL It is not those elements that are boring and lazy; instead, the rest of the game can be, and roguelike elements are inserted to cover up the developer's failings. This game isn't one of those. There is a huge amount of content; the developers did not skimp on anything. Think Binding of Isaac.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL It is not those elements that are boring and lazy;
For me generated levels are boring, random stuff cobbled together all the time, just in different configurations. How many different blocks/enemies are shuffled doesn't change it. I know that it should feel fresh every time, elicit the 'sense of discovery' and all that, but for me it's like watching never ending dice rolls, just RNG fest.
I play a lot of board games. Most of them have some amount of randomness, which is fine. But when there is too much of it, you get a 'dice roller' game - a game where randomness runs the show, not the players. Those games have a lot of fans, some people like 'the thrill', uncertainty and 'surprises'. For me it's a waste of time, we can just flip a coin and be done with it. I think randomness galore rougelike 'experience' in world of board games would be Kingdom Death: Monster, a game I despise and will never play.
Binding of Isaac.
I don't know what this is.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Binding of Isaac.
I don't know what this is.
Be glad. It's another roguelike, but Legend of Zelda-y and the main character is a baby based on Isaac from the Bible. It's by the guy who made Super Meat Boy.
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@MrL Well, at this point all I can say is: Enter the Gungeon is one of the best in its category, and it is free, so don't knock it till you try it.
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@MrL Procedurally generated levels are kinda mandatory, if the game is supposed to have extra value in multiple play-throughs.
Say, if the game has a character selection at the start, that determines the character's skill set for the remainder of the game. Then having at least some procedurally generated stuff can keep the game from becoming repetitive when you want to try another character.
Have you tried Diablo (1 or 2) and/or the Borderlands series? Borderlands got very boring after a character swap, as the first levels are always a drudge, and you know it exactly beforehand.
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@acrow said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Procedurally generated levels are kinda mandatory, if the game is supposed to have extra value in multiple play-throughs.
Alas, the flip side of that is that procedurally generated levels are often not that much fun in the first place.
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That doesn't have to be the case though. If the game has a decent storyline well told, that can remain the same (NPCs, puzzles, etc) while the area layout is semi-randomly generated with semi-random side quests and puzzles. This adds variety to multiple play-throughs while keeping the backbone of the game the same. The problem only arises if the game's writers haven't bothered with that backbone, in which case the procedural generation of landscape is the least of it's problems.
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@dkf said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@acrow said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Procedurally generated levels are kinda mandatory, if the game is supposed to have extra value in multiple play-throughs.
Alas, the flip side of that is that procedurally generated levels are often not that much fun in the first place.
Yes, well, depends on the type of level. Plot-relevant environments need to be well-designed and scriptable to have a plot. And a randomly generated city-scape just doesn't work.
But underground
dungeonscaves, forests, forest paths, rocky deserts... overall, places that are the product of random chance in real life, actually benefit from being pseudo-randomly generated.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL Well, at this point all I can say is: Enter the Gungeon is one of the best in its category, and it is free, so don't knock it till you try it.
I don't have to try it to know I won't like it.
@acrow said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL Procedurally generated levels are kinda mandatory, if the game is supposed to have extra value in multiple play-throughs.
Say, if the game has a character selection at the start, that determines the character's skill set for the remainder of the game. Then having at least some procedurally generated stuff can keep the game from becoming repetitive when you want to try another character.Problem is, generated levels are repetitive.
Have you tried Diablo (1 or 2) and/or the Borderlands series? Borderlands got very boring after a character swap, as the first levels are always a drudge, and you know it exactly beforehand.
I liked Diablo when I was 15, now I find it repetitive and boring. Never liked Diablo 2 or Bordelrands.
Randomized levels have nothing to do with it. Things shuffled around don't make new content.
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@dkf said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@acrow said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Procedurally generated levels are kinda mandatory, if the game is supposed to have extra value in multiple play-throughs.
Alas, the flip side of that is that procedurally generated levels are often not that much fun in the first place.
I don’t want to explore a procedurally generated map in a game. It’s not fun to explore, you’re not discovering stuff, it’s the same stuff over and over. You become accustomed to, and are bored by the algorithms the procgen uses in exactly the same way you get bored by an artist made map.
I want to explore a map that was made by an artist, with secrets and gameplay considerations built in. Not just computer generated noise. In my opinion this is where the maps of PUBG and DayZ beat Rust every time.
That's a quarter of that post right there. It's not very long.
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This post is deleted!
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Bordelrands
Now there's a game that might be popular if it ever survived censorship. ...Oh, you meant Borderlands? Nevermind, then.
Things shuffled around don't make new content.
It's more of a keeping up of the purpose of the exercise. If the targets always come in the same formation, from the same direction, with the same timing, eventually you'll hit them from sheer habit and it's no longer target practise; more like a ritual dance at that point.
So, yes, I agree very much. It's not new content; it's more of a preservative that keeps the playground from rusting through.
I do understand that you don't like it. The preferred plot-to-exercise -mix is very individual, and generated levels mostly preserve the grindier excercise-oriented games. The Diablos and, um, RPGs in general now, are very exercise oriented.
Contrast: I started to play through Max Payne 3 again. Way too much plot, served through a jarring number of cutscenes. This game is 2/3 cut-scenes. 3/4 if you don't turn bullet-cam effects off.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
I liked Diablo when I was 15, now I find it repetitive and boring. Never liked Diablo 2 or Bordelrands.
Randomized levels have nothing to do with it. Things shuffled around don't make new content.Some degree of randomisation can keep things fresh. It certainly prevents rushing the objectives on the second time through. However I tend to be rather exploratory anyway, so they can take it or leave it as far as I'm concerned.
In my opinion both Diablo (2/3) and Borderlands do tend to have interesting levels. It's mainly borderlands gameplay which is a bit of a drag for the first few levels.
The danger with randomised levels is if you then go on to overuse the same setpieces and things end up being 'samey' even before you finish your first playthrough. A few months back I played Shadow Warrior 2, which suffered from this.
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@acrow said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
It's more of a keeping up of the purpose of the exercise. If the targets always come in the same formation, from the same direction, with the same timing, eventually you'll hit them from sheer habit and it's no longer target practise; more like a ritual dance at that point.
So, yes, I agree very much. It's not new content; it's more of a preservative that keeps the playground from rusting through.
Well designed and executed games don't loose replayability because they are not random. I still play Doom, Quake, Witcher and other good games. It's mediocre forgettable games that don't have anything to offer on second playthrough, so they must rescue themselves with randomness.
I do understand that you don't like it. The preferred plot-to-exercise -mix is very individual, and generated levels mostly preserve the grindier excercise-oriented games.
I wouldn't say it's individual. Doom has practically zero plot and is very replayable. Diablo has a lot more plot and is boring as hell.
The Diablos and, um, RPGs in general now, are very exercise oriented.
The name "RPG" lost its meaning a long time ago. Almost everything labelled 'RPG' is just an arcade game.
Contrast: I started to play through Max Payne 3 again. Way too much plot, served through a jarring number of cutscenes. This game is 2/3 cut-scenes. 3/4 if you don't turn bullet-cam effects off.
Yes, cramming unneeded 'story' that adds nothing to the game is a trend for some time now. Another example: Woflenstein: New Colossus.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Problem is, generated levels are repetitive.
Gungeon is in no way repetitive. I completed the game 100% and there are still only like six or seven room layouts that I know by heart simply because there are such a huge number of them and those were the most memorable ones.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Problem is, generated levels are repetitive.
Gungeon is in no way repetitive. I completed the game 100% and there are still only like six or seven room layouts that I know by heart simply because there are such a huge number of them and those were the most memorable ones.
Here's a shocker: things don't have to be exactly the same to be repetitive.
Your relentless defense of this game is curious.
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@MrL mostly because you dismiss it purely based on assumptions that you refuse to believe aren't the case.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL mostly because you dismiss it purely based on assumptions that you refuse to believe aren't the case.
That it's procedurally generated rouge-like?
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
rouge-like?
No, no, I don't think it has anything to do with make-up. Face-powder or otherwise. More of a rogue-like, I hear.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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@Rhywden said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Parody said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Rhywden said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Parody Wait, they only recently added a "Search" function? For a store?
They didn't really need one when they only had 5 games on it.
Yeah, but they're listing a "shopping cart" as a long term feature.
What kind of monkeys are those guys employing?
It kinda is, considering I only have EG launcher because they're giving away games.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL mostly because you dismiss it purely based on assumptions that you refuse to believe aren't the case.
That it's procedurally generated rouge-like?
If you say you don't like roguelikes in general, that's one thing. But it's procedural generation you were on about.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL mostly because you dismiss it purely based on assumptions that you refuse to believe aren't the case.
That it's procedurally generated rouge-like?
If you say you don't like roguelikes in general, that's one thing. But it's procedural generation you were on about.
And?
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Problem is, generated levels are repetitive.
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
I completed the game 100% and there are still only like six or seven room layouts that I know by heart
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
things don't have to be exactly the same to be repetitive.
Then it's not the procedural generation, but rather the components of the procedural generation that are too similar.
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Problem is, generated levels are repetitive.
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
I completed the game 100% and there are still only like six or seven room layouts that I know by heart
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
things don't have to be exactly the same to be repetitive.
Then it's not the procedural generation, but rather the components of the procedural generation that are too similar.
No.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL mostly because you dismiss it purely based on assumptions that you refuse to believe aren't the case.
That it's procedurally generated rouge-like?
If you say you don't like roguelikes in general, that's one thing. But it's procedural generation you were on about.
And?
And you assert that it's repetitive in its procedural generation.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL mostly because you dismiss it purely based on assumptions that you refuse to believe aren't the case.
That it's procedurally generated rouge-like?
If you say you don't like roguelikes in general, that's one thing. But it's procedural generation you were on about.
And?
And you assert that it's repetitive in its procedural generation.
Having seen countless examples of procedural generation I'm somewhat skeptical about the possibility that this iteration is dramatically different than others.
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@MrL and it won't cost you any money to find out.
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@pie_flavor time is money.
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL and it won't cost you any money to find out.
Just watched 20 minutes of gameplay on youtube. I estimate this is also how long I could stay interested in the game playing it myself. It's exactly as repetitive and boring as descriptions, screenshots and trailers told me earlier, which is a lot.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL and it won't cost you any money to find out.
Just watched 20 minutes of gameplay on youtube. I estimate this is also how long I could stay interested in the game playing it myself. It's exactly as repetitive and boring as descriptions, screenshots and trailers told me earlier, which is a lot.
I'm in the same boat. I see procedural generation and think "the developer couldn't be bothered putting the time into level development but did have a great time masturbating over his code".
Saying that though if the gameplay loop is good enough it's just more sand in the sandbox. My time with Civ and Worms was usually brought to an end with me uninstalling them when I realised I should of done cardio.
@pie_flavor Money usually isn't a factor. It's time. You thrown money at problems to save time or enjoy wasting it.
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Money usually isn't a factor. It's time
Remember, @pie_flavour is a student so the priorities are reversed
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@Jaloopa said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Money usually isn't a factor. It's time
Remember, @pie_flavour is a student so the priorities are reversed
Depends on their far-sightedness. If I'd spent my free time on making crappy cellphone apps, instead of reading comics, when I was studying, well... Now that I have a day job, I don't have that kind of time anymore, and I could really use the extra income.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Problem is, generated levels are repetitive.
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
I completed the game 100% and there are still only like six or seven room layouts that I know by heart
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
things don't have to be exactly the same to be repetitive.
Then it's not the procedural generation, but rather the components of the procedural generation that are too similar.
No.
If the components you build with are varied and complex, then when you add procedural generation on top, it's indistinguishable from hand made levels. And before you say no here, games with hand made levels reuse assets all the time, humans can unintentionally make repetitive levels even though they hand make each one.
The problem is that most procedural generation has too small of building blocks and not enough variation. For example, No Man's Sky has a few fixed buildings and plants. There are no prefab cave entrances or larger components, so it's very repetitive. However, a game like Champions Online has large sets for instances, with a large selection of set pieces, and every map feels uniquely different.
The key is to find the right balance of component size, and then have a lot of variation. Too large and it gets exactly repetitive, too small and it feels repetitive, or worse, nonsensical.
There are other forms of procedural generation.
Grim Dawn uses a very very mild form, where there's a fixed set of replaceable walls and the game selects which ones are blocked on each run, making sure not to make it impossible to get from point to point. It's just enough generation to have me lose recognition on some levels, or at least feel less repetitive because I end up taking new paths each time.
It also helps a lot if the procedural components aren't on a square grid only system. Having components that are varied in angles and shapes produces more dynamic environments.
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@acrow said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Jaloopa said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Money usually isn't a factor. It's time
Remember, @pie_flavour is a student so the priorities are reversed
Depends on their far-sightedness. If I'd spent my free time on making crappy cellphone apps, instead of reading comics, when I was studying, well... Now that I have a day job, I don't have that kind of time anymore, and I could really use the extra income.
Most apps make fuck all money. Most of the big ones are hemorraging VC money. Time invested vs money earned appears to be very low. Probably better off finding a weekend job digging ditchs. Steady stream of income and you'll probably never have to go to the gym ever again.
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@DogsB said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Probably better off finding a weekend job digging ditchs. Steady stream of income and you'll probably never have to go to the gym ever again.
"Fuckin' A!"
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
If the components you build with are varied and complex, then when you add procedural generation on top, it's indistinguishable from hand made levels. And before you say no here, games with hand made levels reuse assets all the time, humans can unintentionally make repetitive levels even though they hand make each one.
It's not about number of different assets. It's about the thought that stands behind the level design, there is none behind procedural generation.
You can make countless well thought out, interesting, challenging levels that make sense with very limited number of assets. I recently play Doom, a game from 1995, with very small number of assets, enemies and weapons. The levels make sense - military base is a military base, with exits, command center, defended points, buttons that open 'correct' doors. There are traps, choke points, corridors that lead to logical places, end so on.
On the other hand we have something like, say, Diablo. A ton of random items, randomized enemies and level compositions. Is it 'fresh and new' all the time? No, it's just rolling a dice all the time and being 'surprised' by what turns up. Same thing with Gungeon - tons of items, weapons, enemies, chests and whatnot, shuffled endlessly before your eyes.
Some people like it and that's fine. There's no objectively better way to create games - different people like different things.
What do I hear when watching Gungeon gameplay on yt?
"What will be in next room? Oh, a yellow enemy with green enemy, that's rare on this floor, cool! Look! A chest! What will we get, what will we get...? Boots and a gun. Woooow, I haven't seen those boots ever before and I have 700 hours in this game. Wow. Just wow. Let's see if there is a secret room [fires frantically at walls], no, not here. I heard they added a secret room in last patch, it appears on this level sometimes - someday I'll find it."
Cool. I see the guy likes finding new stuff, so for him the more different stuff the better. He likes not knowing what is behind next door, and randomization gives him this. I understand it, but it's not fun for me. On the contrary, it's plain boring and repetitive for me.
This is not to say that humans can't create bad, boring and stupid levels. They can and often do.
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
If the components you build with are varied and complex, then when you add procedural generation on top, it's indistinguishable from hand made levels. And before you say no here, games with hand made levels reuse assets all the time, humans can unintentionally make repetitive levels even though they hand make each one.
The problem is that most procedural generation has too small of building blocks and not enough variation. For example, No Man's Sky has a few fixed buildings and plants. There are no prefab cave entrances or larger components, so it's very repetitive. However, a game like Champions Online has large sets for instances, with a large selection of set pieces, and every map feels uniquely different.
The more components, the merrier. However, you will always run into the birthday problem so avoiding repetition will need an increasingly larger number of components.
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Grim Dawn uses a very very mild form
They also slightly randomize what enemies you face (you end up facing a certain weight of force, but the exact composition isn't set except for a few features and bosses). That stops things from being too awful. And the maps are really quite large, to the point where remembering the details gets awkward. It's quite well done.
Though it does help the game that the layout, especially of the early areas, has changed since I started playing it. Some areas were really quite different in the betas…
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
It's not about number of different assets. It's about the thought that stands behind the level design, there is none behind procedural generation.
That doesn't have to be true.
For example, I'm pretty sure we could get to doom level of complexity with procedural generation rather easy. Traps and choke points are rather easy, and buttons that open 'correct' doors is not hard. You generate the layout, and then you add the doors, making sure there's no impossible combination.
"Corridors that lead to logical places" is just adding in a larger component.
Like I said, if all the components are the same size, or especially if they're mapped to a square grid, that's where the repetition comes from.
We have to derive complexity from simplicity. The wrong mix of components and we'll derive simplicity from simplicity.
I mean, if you think not knowing makes it repetitive, then how is a new unexplored static game any different?
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
For example, I'm pretty sure we could get to doom level of complexity with procedural generation rather easy.
There are Doom level generators. They produce shitty levels.
I mean, if you think not knowing makes it repetitive, then how is a new unexplored static game any different?
It's not not knowing that makes it repetitive. It's that the 'surprise' has no thought behind it.
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@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
There are Doom level generators. They produce shitty levels.
Then they are shitty generators.
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
It's that the 'surprise' has no thought behind it.
It's the knowledge that the surprise has no thought behind it.
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@MrL and would it be that much more interesting if it was not procedurally generated and had five hand-designed maps instead in this game that is meant to be played over and over? Like Risk of Rain 2?
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@Jaloopa said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavour
@boomzilla what if there was a pie_flavour group like one does with @Gaska
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Jaloopa said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavour
@boomzilla what if there was a pie_flavour group like one does with @Gaska
Where's the fun in that?
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@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@Jaloopa said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@pie_flavour
@boomzilla what if there was a pie_flavour group like one does with @Gaska
@earth73
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@xaade said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
Then they are shitty generators.
The only kind that exist.
@MrL said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
It's that the 'surprise' has no thought behind it.
It's the knowledge that the surprise has no thought behind it.
Well sure, when you go through first 10 generated rooms, the knowledge that it's just random stuff shuffled around is there.
@pie_flavor said in Epic Store (and other "Occupy Steam" movements):
@MrL and would it be that much more interesting if it was not procedurally generated and had five hand-designed maps instead in this game that is meant to be played over and over?
It wouldn't work, this game is designed from ground up to appeal to people who like generated levels.
Like Risk of Rain 2?
Don't know what this is.
[edit]
"The classic multiplayer roguelike, Risk of Rain, returns with an extra dimension and more challenging action. No run will ever be the same with randomized stages, enemies, bosses, and items."That's 3x no and a hard pass.
[edit2]
Early access
Aaaand disqualified.