Firefox alienating its users
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@cvi said in Firefox alienating its users:
@sweaty_gammon said in Firefox alienating its users:
The problems with Windows are well documented and there is normally a way to solve it, even if you have to resort to the registry nonsense and the Local Group Policy. Sometimes when you run into a problem with Linux you are normally searching through fossilised forum posts on the 3rd page of google.
I have the opposite problem. Whenever I try to find information on some windows-related problem, you have to dig through a quagmire of useless or straight-up idiotic information.
Such as? I provided examples of some of the problems I've faced. Albeit they were a while ago, but similar problems still exist.
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@sweaty_gammon I never said the upgrade takes 30 minutes.
But, I start the upgrade, and let it run in the background while I use the machine.
At the end of the day, I reboot and I'm on the new version.
Windows Update can go fuck itself with a rusty fork.
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But, I start the upgrade, and let it run in the background while I use the machine.
At the end of the day, I reboot and I'm on the new version.
Funnily enough ...
Windows update works in the background while I continue to work on my machine. At the end of the day I reboot and I'm on the new version.
While the forced reboot thing is a bit shit (Local Group Policy is your friend here, you can just kill it there if you really need to). I just set it to 2am in the morning and make sure I save my work (which you should do anyway).
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@TimeBandit You just described the Windows Update process though. Only difference is if you ignore the reboot step for several days it does it for you
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Firefox is pissing me off with how JavaScript suddenly doesn't work reliably on it. For example, the Reply button on this site doesn't work. Office 365 won't show me dashboards, etc.
It sucks.
Whatever is going on, I'll probably fix it (one way or another), but damn it's annoying.
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@Captain said in Firefox alienating its users:
Firefox is pissing me off with how JavaScript suddenly doesn't work reliably on it. For example, the Reply button on this site doesn't work. Office 365 won't show me dashboards, etc.
It sucks.
Whatever is going on, I'll probably fix it (one way or another), but damn it's annoying.
Everything is built to work on Blink based browsers. Also if you have anything like ublock origin I would try turning it off on sites you have problems with.
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@Captain said in Firefox alienating its users:
Firefox is pissing me off with how JavaScript suddenly doesn't work reliably on it. For example, the Reply button on this site doesn't work. Office 365 won't show me dashboards, etc.
It sucks.
Whatever is going on, I'll probably fix it (one way or another), but damn it's annoying.
Unless you see a bunch of errors in the JS console, one of the Firefox processes is probably locked up. It'll be the process that Task Manager says is running a whole core's worth of CPU. Killing that process would probably make all the broken tabs say that the tab crashed and that you can reload them, after which it'll probably work okay.
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@sweaty_gammon said in Firefox alienating its users:
Such as?
My latest (ongoing) issue is with audio routing. I have a sound card with several analog outputs and a digital one. I want to route sound to one of the analog outputs while keeping the digital one active and plugged in. The card supports it (the Linux solution is maybe not pretty, but in the end involves a quick copy-past into a .asoundrc and then it's done). On Windows there are apparently 3 million different third party programs for various manufactures, but digging through that ... FML.
Sound is a mess anyway. Said digital output accepts Dolby Digital or somesuch, but Windows largely refuses to output that, instead relying on DTS (maybe it's the other way around). The latest update changes some stuff, but AFAIK, the problem remains. (After a ton of digging, the issue is apparently that none of {Microsoft,Asus} doesn't want to pay for that one codec, and the speaker people don't want to license the other one. Would have preferred being told that upfront.)
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@cvi said in Firefox alienating its users:
@sweaty_gammon said in Firefox alienating its users:
Such as?
My latest (ongoing) issue is with audio routing. I have a sound card with several analog outputs and a digital one. I want to route sound to one of the analog outputs while keeping the digital one active and plugged in. The card supports it (the Linux solution is maybe not pretty, but in the end involves a quick copy-past into a .asoundrc and then it's done). On Windows there are apparently 3 million different third party programs for various manufactures, but digging through that ... FML.
Sound is a mess anyway. Said digital output accepts Dolby Digital or somesuch, but Windows largely refuses to output that, instead relying on DTS (maybe it's the other way around). The latest update changes some stuff, but AFAIK, the problem remains. (After a ton of digging, the issue is apparently that none of {Microsoft,Asus} doesn't want to pay for that one codec, and the speaker people don't want to license the other one. Would have preferred being told that upfront.)
I have similar issues. Audio just seems to be a pain whatever.
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@sweaty_gammon that's because the drivers are invariably crap, unless you shell out for the really good stuff (eg. RME). Anyway USB audio interfaces are now really well supported on Linux. At least as regards their basic functionality, and if the hardware actually works, the rest can be fixed in software.
Pity that pro audio is really sad on Linux.
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@admiral_p Well my headset (logitech) still doesn't work.
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@pie_flavor said in Firefox alienating its users:
You just described the Windows Update process though
Yeah, right. Not in this universe
I need to reboot to apply updates
fine, I'll do it click reboot
starting reboot procedure
Please wait, applying updates
20 minutes later
done, rebooting...
Boot process starting
Please wait, applying update 1 of 32. This could take some time
Why the hell is it not done yet 
30 minutes later...
Almost done, please wait...
Your files are where you left them
10 minutes later
Done. You can login now.
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@TimeBandit said in Firefox alienating its users:
@pie_flavor said in Firefox alienating its users:
You just described the Windows Update process though
Yeah, right. Not in this universe
I need to reboot to apply updates
fine, I'll do it click reboot
starting reboot procedure
Please wait, applying updates
20 minutes later
done, rebooting...
Boot process starting
Please wait, applying update 1 of 32. This could take some time
Why the hell is it not done yet
30 minutes later...
Almost done, please wait...
Your files are where you left them
10 minutes later
Done. You can login now.Lies or you have a shit computer. My computer from 6 years ago manages to do it in a few minutes. My laptop from 10 years ago only takes 10 minutes.
The same sort of shit always comes up and it is always exaggerations. When you bring up real problems with Linux that are fundamental to the platform like I have on this thread they get hand waived away.
You guys are literally complaining about a Candy Crush Saga icon. I am talking about things like API compatibility, large DE projects throwing away years of code. The best you can come up with is a minor annoyance about the time of updates.
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@admiral_p said in Firefox alienating its users:
@sweaty_gammon that's because the drivers are invariably crap, unless you shell out for the really good stuff (eg. RME). Anyway USB audio interfaces are now really well supported on Linux. At least as regards their basic functionality, and if the hardware actually works, the rest can be fixed in software.
Pity that pro audio is really sad on Linux.
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@cvi said in Firefox alienating its users:
I have the opposite problem. Whenever I try to find information on some windows-related problem, you have to dig through a quagmire of useless or straight-up idiotic information.
Have you tried searching sites other than microsoft.com?
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@sweaty_gammon agreed. And in my experience macOS is way worse for that. Like hours for a non upgrade update.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Firefox alienating its users:
@sweaty_gammon agreed. And in my experience macOS is way worse for that. Like hours for a non upgrade update.
MacOS has been mostly been fine for me. I am using brew for most of my software installation. However my MacBook is ancient now and rarely gets used.
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@sweaty_gammon I was talking about "security updates" (so system but not upgrading to a new version entirely). And XCode....I'm still waiting.
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@Benjamin-Hall Don't get me started on XCode.
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@PJH said in Firefox alienating its users:
@cvi said in Firefox alienating its users:
a quagmire of useless or straight-up idiotic information.
Have you tried searching sites other than microsoft.com?
If we had implemented Reactions, I'd give this one a
.
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@PJH said in Firefox alienating its users:
Have you tried searching sites other than microsoft.com?
Yeah, I tried to bing the whole internet.
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Anyway, all the update woes you are talking about, I have never had anything of the sort on Linux. I'm on a LTS distro, I click update and I never, ever, ever have any issues whatsoever. And I also use third party repos. That's been true on Mint, that's been true on Ubuntu, that's even been true on Fedora (where you're expected to wipe out and reinstall everything every year or so). On Windows, I have had issues on the other hand. Really long updates, updates that seem never to terminate, weird stuff going on. I'm also on Windows 7 which is supposed to be stable these days (and I dread the day I will have to move to Windows 10).
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@admiral_p Please don't lie.
Linux advocates always seem to have no problems with Linux ever. They always have problems with Windows.
I use MacOS, Windows and Linux and I don't have a lot of problems with the first two.
@TimeBandit the only reason I reinstalled Windows 10 was because I had 4 half installed versions of SQL Server. Sql Server tends to do nasty crap to the system just like Oracle Db. There was no hope of fixing the situation so a wipe was easier. The same would have happened on a linux distro if core binaries had been replaced by a package.
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@sweaty_gammon I really am not. Pinky swear. Granted, I don't even have a video card on any of my computers as I don't play games. My computers are all old (AMD Phenom II on one, a Core 2 Duo on the other one). If I did have a video card and cutting edge hardware I'd have many more headaches, I'm sure.
I have had issues with my FireWire audio interface on Linux (which is not officially supported). So I run Windows on the computer where I use it.
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@anotherusername Nothing is using a whole core.
Had to log out anyway, that seemed to fix it.
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Meanwhile, the group of students that I have a few times each week has started hating Windows with a passion too. How did this happen? By me starting to teach Windows Server. Just doing some basic stuff, like teaching how to setup IIS and doing a basic AD configuration and they are cursing the horrible UI with settings hidden in a million obscure links in the GUI and longing for the ease of the terminal and editing .conf files on Linux, where things just fucking works.
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@Atazhaia Did everyone get up at the end and clap? This sounds like utter bullshit.
Setting up a site in IIS is pretty damn easy. It takes me about a minute or two to do it. Granted it is a little more difficult on Windows Server but not by much.
I dunno what you are teaching them. Maybe you aren't qualified.
BTW there are these conf files in IIS called web.config files that can be edited in a text editor and use a standard XML format that config the site settings.
I am coining the term "Lies for Linux".
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@sweaty_gammon I know that setting up a site in IIS is easy. I thought that going to Windows Server would make them all happy with the nice GUI-based controls over the Linux file editing and terminal shenanigans we've been doing before. The class I had last year preferred working in Windows Server, but the class this year prefers Linux. So, yeah...
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@TimeBandit said in Firefox alienating its users:
@pie_flavor said in Firefox alienating its users:
You just described the Windows Update process though
Yeah, right. Not in this universe
I need to reboot to apply updates
fine, I'll do it click reboot
starting reboot procedure
Please wait, applying updates
20 minutes later
done, rebooting...
Boot process starting
Please wait, applying update 1 of 32. This could take some time
Why the hell is it not done yet
30 minutes later...
Almost done, please wait...
Your files are where you left them
10 minutes later
Done. You can login now.Yes, the twice a year feature update is like that. The much more common updates are not. You're either intentionally being dishonest or don't actually use Windows.
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@pie_flavor said in Firefox alienating its users:
@TimeBandit said in Firefox alienating its users:
@pie_flavor said in Firefox alienating its users:
You just described the Windows Update process though
Yeah, right. Not in this universe
I need to reboot to apply updates
fine, I'll do it click reboot
starting reboot procedure
Please wait, applying updates
20 minutes later
done, rebooting...
Boot process starting
Please wait, applying update 1 of 32. This could take some time
Why the hell is it not done yet
30 minutes later...
Almost done, please wait...
Your files are where you left them
10 minutes later
Done. You can login now.Yes, the twice a year feature update is like that. The much more common updates are not. You're either intentionally being dishonest or don't actually use Windows.
Pretty much my feeling on the subject.
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@sweaty_gammon at the end of the day, everything's fine, or everything's crap (depending on your point of view). I expect CS students to be more accustomed to Linux somewhat. Why don't they like Windows? Because they probably experiment with Linux at home. They have access to the same tools the big guys use. That's the beauty of open source after all. Maybe Microsoft's tools and stuff are easier to use for a total computer virgin. That doesn't matter if access to such tools is limited in any way. To appreciate Microsoft's stuff you have to get into that mindset, and that mindset may be unappealing to achieve if Microsoft behaves like a right arse (people use Linux out of spite). And Microsoft is realising this, that's why they are basically making all their stuff freely available.
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@Atazhaia said in Firefox alienating its users:
@sweaty_gammon I know that setting up a site in IIS is easy. I thought that going to Windows Server would make them all happy with the nice GUI-based controls over the Linux file editing and terminal shenanigans we've been doing before. The class I had last year preferred working in Windows Server, but the class this year prefers Linux. So, yeah...
Oh right so you were omitting some information to paint a picture where every student loves Linux. When in fact there were two totally different groups of students that preferred different ways of achieving the same thing.
How dishonest.
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@admiral_p said in Firefox alienating its users:
@sweaty_gammon at the end of the day, everything's fine, or everything's crap (depending on your point of view).
I didn't even say Linux was crap. I said it was crap as a desktop operating system.
- I run Linux on my Orange Pi for Emulators and a Media box. It works great.
- I run Linux on my phone.
- I run in Virtual machines.
It works great for those things IMO.
I expect CS students to be more accustomed to Linux somewhat
That is nonsense. When I was at Uni almost all of them used Windows and couldn't work out how to make a tarball.
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@admiral_p said in Firefox alienating its users:
Maybe Microsoft's tools and stuff are easier to use for a total computer virgin.
Easier compared to what? A smart phone? My father can barely use a mouse. However he is quite happy doing everything on his smartphone.
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@sweaty_gammon said in Firefox alienating its users:
Oh right so you were omitting some information to paint a picture where every student loves Linux. When in fact there were two totally different groups of students that preferred different ways of achieving the same thing.
How dishonest.Before calling me dishonest maybe you should apply some reading comprehension? Or do I need to explain everything to you in every niggling detail? I never said all students I've had prefer Linux. I said "the class I have a few times each week", which means the one I'm currently having. Because there is a new set of students every year.
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@Atazhaia Fair enough. I apologise.
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@sweaty_gammon said in Firefox alienating its users:
@admiral_p said in Firefox alienating its users:
@sweaty_gammon at the end of the day, everything's fine, or everything's crap (depending on your point of view).
I didn't even say Linux was crap. I said it was crap as a desktop operating system.
- I run Linux on my Orange Pi for Emulators and a Media box. It works great.
- I run Linux on my phone.
- I run in Virtual machines.
It works great for those things IMO.
I expect CS students to be more accustomed to Linux somewhat
That is nonsense. When I was at Uni almost all of them used Windows and couldn't work out how to make a tarball.
When did you go to university? Still, with the rise of
OS XmacOS, and its take-up by the non-gaming geeks, I would expect more people to feel more at home on a Unix-style OS. All the cool kids seem to use either macOS or Linux, with very few using Windows "except for gaming" (the usual caveat).
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@admiral_p It is a shame you have bought into the bullshit.
Most people don't like the CLI, don't like using *nix and in my experience are quite happy with using Windows to develop on.
I have been working with two female developers (which is unusual) and 2 male devs that are overseas.
The product I am working on does work cross platform. The only reason it works cross platform is because I bloody test it cross platform.
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@sweaty_gammon I haven't bought into any bullshit. I actually use Windows for what I consider closest to a professional usage (my job doesn't strictly require me to use any form of computer, also because the school where I work is extremely conservative; for audio work, Linux, as I said, is pitiful. Unless you're a ubergeek that does sound design in Pure Data or Csound and that kind of stuff). I realise that Linux cannot cut it on many use cases. I maintain that for casual usage Linux can work as well, or even better (it depends on how much of a
you are).
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@sweaty_gammon to better clarify, my experience is this:
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cool kids doing frontend web stuff/graphic design/apps: macOS
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uncool (but cooler than the following) kids doing backend work: Linux
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uncool kids doing enterprise work: Windows
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creative professionals (video editors, sound engineers, etc.): either macOS or Windows
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@admiral_p Your classifications are at this point are just tropes.
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@sweaty_gammon they may well be. Tropes are founded in reality.
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@admiral_p No they aren't. Stereotypes are.
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@topspin said in Firefox alienating its users:
@admiral_p said in Firefox alienating its users:
Ugly, I wouldn't say that, with the right DE/theme/font choice, desktop Linux is ugly.
Ubuntu, by default, is ugly. But they go out of their way to make everything ugly brown just like MS went out of their way to make Win 8 purple.
Given the choice of toy crayon purple or shit-smeared brown, I'd pick Windows 7 and burn the other ones to the ground.
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@TimeBandit said in Firefox alienating its users:
10 minutes later
Done. You can login now. Thank you for logging in. There are updates available for your computer!
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@Lorne-Kates anyway Ubuntu dropped brown at least ten years ago. Ubuntu has been orange for years. Which is possibly worse, because orange is sickly. With their choice of colours (relatively high contrast themes, deep shades of orange, etc.) it's even worse. Accent colours acceptable for a computer are basically a couple of low S, high(ish) V shades of blue and possibly green. Or no colour at all. Microsoft did a good job with Windows Phone.
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This thread is pretty amusing with all the people saying the same things of the three big desktop OSes, and using the same explanation.
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@Carnage said in Firefox alienating its users:
This thread is pretty amusing with all the people saying the same things of the three big desktop OSes, and using the same explanation.
Which just goes to show that nothing ever changes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPRvc2UMeMI
(Well something's changed: now your fridge, stove, toaster, and TV can crash on you and phones take a while to boot.)
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@sweaty_gammon said in Firefox alienating its users:
Powershell takes quite a lot of time to open up.
Same on W10, it takes ages.
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I just tried Powershell. It took less than a second to get to the command prompt.
