My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?
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Whenever I'm playing 7 Days To Die, every so often my computer restarts spontaneously. Like, black screen, fans stop, second passes, booting up. It only ever happens with this one game, but it does so very consistently. It might me million different things, and I'm not a fan of testing them one by one. So how do I tell what even caused the crash? System event log doesn't say anything except that there wasn't clean shutdown, "restart automatically" in advanced boot options is unchecked, reinstalling GPU drivers didn't help. What else can I do to narrow down the cause?
In case it matters, I have i5-4440, GF GTX760 and Windows 10.
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@Gąska my first guess would be that you're overheating. When you power down it cools down enough that you don't get a CPU temp error on boot.
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@sloosecannon in a few seconds it cools down enough to be good for another hour? And only in this one indie game? Unlikely.
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Could be a power draw problem, too. Something stresses the system a bit too much and one of your PSU voltage levels dips too low, and sudden reboot.
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
GF GTX760
Sometimes it's a bug in the latest driver.
Try with a previous driver and see if the problem goes away.and Windows 10.
Well, Windows Update will probably fuck things up by re-installing the latest driver
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@TimeBandit said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
GF GTX760
Sometimes it's a bug in the latest driver.
Try with a previous driver and see if the problem goes away.and Windows 10.
Well, Windows Update will probably fuck things up by re-installing the latest driver
Driver bugs shouldn't cause a full reset though. BSOD or graphics reset maybe, but not a full shut-the-computer-off crash
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@sloosecannon said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
Driver bugs shouldn't cause a full reset though. BSOD or graphics reset maybe, but not a full shut-the-computer-off crash
Shouldn't is the key word here
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@TimeBandit said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@sloosecannon said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
Driver bugs shouldn't cause a full reset though. BSOD or graphics reset maybe, but not a full shut-the-computer-off crash
Shouldn't is the key word here
I only say shouldn't because there's probably technically a way it could happen and someone would me if I said "can't". But you're not going to encounter that in real-life usage.
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@TimeBandit said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
Well, Windows Update will probably fuck things up by re-installing the latest driver
No. It won't
This is either overheating or a bad PSU.
@Gąska Try turning the graphic details down to something very low and see if it does the same thing.
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@sloosecannon Same thing should be true in Win7, no?
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@TimeBandit said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
GF GTX760
Sometimes it's a bug in the latest driver.
Try with a previous driver and see if the problem goes away.The problem started with the previous driver. And is present with newest too.
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
in a few seconds it cools down enough to be good for another hour?
Sure - the CPU has very little heat capacity. It cools down almost immediately. The question is rather why it takes so long to overheat. Can you log the temperature? I don't know if windows has something like
/sys/class/thermal/*/temp
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
The problem started with the previous driver. And is present with newest too.
Go back 2 versions then
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@sloosecannon said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@TimeBandit said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@sloosecannon said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
Driver bugs shouldn't cause a full reset though. BSOD or graphics reset maybe, but not a full shut-the-computer-off crash
Shouldn't is the key word here
I only say shouldn't because there's probably technically a way it could happen and someone would me if I said "can't". But you're not going to encounter that in real-life usage.
I did in the past.
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@sweaty_gammon said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Gąska Try turning the graphic details down to something very low and see if it does the same thing.
Done, same thing.
What's the best free program right now for checking temperatures? I've been using Everest in the past, but I don't exactly have a license for that.
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You can also try Intel Burn Test or Furmark and see if any of those cause a reboot. If so, it's almost certainly overheating or too much power draw.
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@TimeBandit said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
The problem started with the previous driver. And is present with newest too.
Go back 2 versions then
By previous, I meant the one I installed over a year ago the last time I messed with GPU drivers.
Don't expect me to binary search through every driver version.
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Another vote for power supply problems. I would say the only way to test conclusively is to do a swap. See if you can get or borrow one with similar or better parameters (which includes the power distribution chart, I might add).
For monitoring, another vote for MSI Afterburner. The overlay will allow you to see various temperatures (and other stuff irrelevant at the moment) while in game.
For more complete information I've been using HWiNFO64 (free and well supported), but it also has lots of values purely for curiosity (such as board voltage monitoring which is completely useless) that can throw you off needlessly.
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I had a similar (IIRC) issue a few years ago, and after replacing the power supply didn't work, I noticed that the fan on my video card was cracked. I guess when it spun too fast it would get out of balance and/or hit something, and whatever happened made the entire system shut down completely. So check your fans as well.
But at least I got a good PSU upgrade that I could reuse for my next computer.
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7 Days to Die is not particularly well-optimized, especially with this latest experimental update if you're running that (as I am). I routinely have weird camera recenters, sudden lighting recalculations, and other such video weirdness, especially if I'm tooling around on a vehicle.
I've never had it hard-crash my machine though, so I'd say the power or heat issues mentioned above are likely culprits.
On a non-crash note though, A17's spawning mechanics can suck a fat one. No fair spawning 4 zombies directly in front of me, in the previously empty room on the third story of the cleared-out building. And then spawning another three directly behind me while I'm distracted bitching about the first four that just appeared literally out of thin air right before my eyes.
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@sloosecannon in a few seconds it cools down enough to be good for another hour? And only in this one indie game? Unlikely.
You'd be surprised.
I had a similar issue with a (probably) much older PC running a Pentium D. It ended up that it thermal-throttled just carefully when doing CPU burn-in tests, but under moderate usage with spikes in load it would do precisely what you describe (with the exception that my motherboard didn't automatically restart).
Check your thermal compound and reapply it (essentially the same thing, really), Mine looked fine, but the compound apparently dried out or something and when I spat some new goop it worked just fine afterward.
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@Tsaukpaetra The last time I had a similar problem. I hadn't actually installed the cooler properly (the stock intel coolers have those shitty fucking plastic clips, I'd rather just get something with a metal backplate).
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My old laptop used to crash spontaneously. The problem seemed to be resolved after I performed error checking on the hard drive, so perhaps try that?
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I had a similar issue with a brand new computer (random crashes that caused a hard reboot, only happening in one game). As it was still brand new I returned it to manufacturer who (told me that they) changed the motherboard as it was defective. I never got the issue afterwards.
(they initially returned it with a different, cheaper motherboard, which meant yet another round-trip back to them to get it sorted out, but that's a different part of the story)
So maybe something has gone wrong in your motherboard, and it's a subtle issue that only manifests itself when the circuitry is exercised in a specific way that this game does? I don't have the slightest idea how you can test that, though, sorry.
Edit: the actual conclusion I wanted to get to is, like many people here I do believe your problem is likely a hardware one.
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I always start with memory for random hard-locks, you can have a faulty stick and have the OS run just fine but things explode when you stress the machine:
If that passes then a GFX stress test should be helpful:
Edit: If the GFX stress test passes then it's time to rag the balls off the CPU and see what happens with a Prime 95 Torture Test:
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So now that I'm fucking around with this brand-new laptop and searching for possible memory issues that started around here, let's see if I can fix my issue before @Gąska resolves his!
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I did Memtest - it wasn't it. I did clean up the dust and the temperatures dropped significantly - but it was still crashing. My next step would be swapping PSU, but before that, I tried replacing USB Wi-Fi adapter with another one. And preliminary tests suggest it fixed the problem
A bad USB Wi-Fi dongle was causing my PC to restart spontaneously. But only in this one game. This is the weirdest hardware problem I've ever encountered.
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@Gąska Out of curiosity - what is your PSU rated for?
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@cvi said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Gąska Out of curiosity - what is your PSU rated for?
At least the 500ma a USB wifi dongle would need, presumably.
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@cvi said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
what is your PSU rated for?
Always get an R rated PSU on your main porn machine
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@Tsaukpaetra said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
At least the 500ma a USB wifi dongle would need, presumably.
Probably. I mainly wanted to figure out how close to the limits things would be running. A slightly out-of-spec USB device being the last drop that causes the PSU to say "fuck it" and give up? Quite unlikely, but I've encountered dumber things.
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@Luhmann said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
Always get an R rated PSU on your main porn machine
R rated? Seems like a IPX4 rating or something would be more useful.
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@cvi this is my PSU:
It's a good brand, and 80 PLUS means it has at least 400W, which is okay for my build. I've bought it 4 years ago, though, and it's possible it's broken down in the meantime. But given what I found out now, I blame decade old cheap Wi-Fi card and broken mobo.
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@cvi said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Luhmann said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
Always get an R rated PSU on your main porn machine
R rated? Seems like a IPX4 rating or something would be more useful.
For some people an Ex rating might be more appropriate...or maybe a BSL level
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
80 PLUS means it has at least 400W
That's certainly not what that means...
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@Tsaukpaetra Okay, I admit I was wrong. It means at least 490W.
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@cvi this is my PSU:
It's a good brand, and 80 PLUS means it has at least 400W, which is okay for my build. I've bought it 4 years ago, though, and it's possible it's broken down in the meantime. But given what I found out now, I blame decade old cheap Wi-Fi card and broken mobo.
Strictly, shouldn't you be comparing the available power on each rail separately?
EDIT: Particularly, part of your USB ports will be on a special rail that is powered when the PC is in standby, intended to allow for wake-on-keyboard. That's often a very low power rail because of the European .5W rule, and may not be able to power a wifi adapter.
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Tsaukpaetra Okay, I admit I was wrong. It means at least 490W.
I think he meant that it would be the other way around. A 550W PSU should be able to output 550W. Under the 80+ label, it wouldn't be permitted to draw more than ~690W from the mains connection* (so 690*0.8 is about 550).
But regardless, that should be plenty for your setup.
(*)At specific load levels.
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@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
I did Memtest - it wasn't it. I did clean up the dust and the temperatures dropped significantly - but it was still crashing. My next step would be swapping PSU, but before that, I tried replacing USB Wi-Fi adapter with another one. And preliminary tests suggest it fixed the problem
A bad USB Wi-Fi dongle was causing my PC to restart spontaneously. But only in this one game. This is the weirdest hardware problem I've ever encountered.
All the symptoms suggested either overheating or bad PSU. How strange.
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Could be a damaged USB port or a damaged adapter, whereupon SCP (or OVP if adapter is not compliant) in the power supply is being triggered... if such protection exists for +5V.
Doesn't explain why did it happen only in that particular game, but to echo the sentiment of @cvi, stranger things happen with these magical boxes we're dealing with here.
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@cvi said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Gąska said in My computer crashes randomly. How do I even tell what's happening?:
@Tsaukpaetra Okay, I admit I was wrong. It means at least 490W.
I think he meant that it would be the other way around. A 550W PSU should be able to output 550W. Under the 80+ label, it wouldn't be permitted to draw more than ~690W from the mains connection* (so 690*0.8 is about 550).
According to Wikipedia, it also means the power factor of at least 0.9 (so in case of 550W PSU, at least 495W of usable power). Which is much more important (to me) than the total electricity used.
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@Gąska I looked up the spec sheet via your link. Your model has 18A on the normal V5 rail and 2.5A on the 5Vsb rail. This means a wifi adapter which complies with the USB spec could pull up to 20% of the power available on the standby rail, and a non-compliant one could pull more. Your motherboard also pulls power from this rail for other purposes, though I'm not sure how much. Anyway it's worth checking your motherboard manual for which USB ports are powered in standby. This may also be annotated on the backplate, or the ports may have a different colour.
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A sufficiently fucked up USB gadget may cause the motherboard to instantly power down to protect itself. Maybe the game tickled the USB WiFi shitbox just the wrong way so that it made the mobo go into fuck no mode.
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- Efficiency depends on the load and total capacity, and can vary by several percent either way depending on the temperature (and input voltage, which may not always be 230V at the wall unless a converting UPS does it for you)
- Even at idle the load is usually not uniform
- There are multiple voltages coming out of the thing: one or more +12V and +3.3V, +5V, +5VSB (which may be sourced separately or from one of +12V). There is likely a label on the device itself, which partly describes this. The total power of all rails is ~550W, but +12V is the most used for power hungry components, while ports such as USB (before 3.0 - depends on motherboard design) use +5V. Less expensive models cheap out on this distribution.
- Power factor does not concern you at all
- There's more, but as I've said in another thread, it's Friday... more like fryday... ehehe
Power supplies are just one more thing that appear to be deceptively simple. Our resident electronic sexperts can attest that it isn't true at all. Trust no less than OklahomaWolf of JonnyGuru or (now sadly defunct) HardwareSecrets for more information, if you're so inclined.
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@Applied-Mediocrity given all that, how do I figure out whether a given PSU will provide enough power for given hardware setup? I assume a heavy dose of cargo culting and ass pulls is necessary?
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@Gąska
Does your computer work properly?- Yes: PSU is fine!
- No: Swap the PSU
Does your computer work properly after swapping the PSU?
- Yes: PSU was the problem!
- No: Swap the motherboard. But keep the new PSU too, you can never be too careful about those evul mudda fukkers.
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@izzion eventually, you end up with a brand new PC with fresh OS installation - that still doesn't work.
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@Gąska
Then just switch to Mac and upgrade your personal Smug Module.
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@izzion after which, it still doesn't work, but at least you can drink coffee at Starbucks without shame.