The A in Apple is for Affordable
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@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
I'm comparing S7 to 7. Not IP67 to IP68 specifically.
Yes but just above you said
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
To sum up: the difference between iPhone 7 and Galaxy S7 was IP67 vs. IP68.
So comparing S7 to 7 is comparing IP67 to IP68 in this context
It's not. If we accept that 8 is manufacturer-dependent, then comparing S7 to 7 is actually comparing IP67 to Samsung's interpratiom of IP68.
Sorry for dragging this on. I'll do my best to calm down my inner
now.Not at all, always a pleasure.
Nevertheless, it'd be interesting to actually find the IEC spec and take a look at how 8 is actually defined there.
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@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Purely from what's been quoted here, I would understand "continuous immersion" to mean "without time limit".
No, that just means you don't remove it from being immersed while under test. Continuous has no meaning in regards to duration.
For example, if I said I could draw a continuous line from point A to point B on a map, does that mean the line has an infinite distance? No, that's laughable.
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@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
"Continuous immersion" does not imply duration, so duration can be defined in "manufacturer's conditions". Wikipedia does not provide any minimum duration.
The lack of a minimum in the definition does not imply it should be interpreted as infinity.
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@mott555 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@Tsaukpaetra Oh, an outer cover. Well, the S7 doesn't have a cover, and it's still waterproof. If it's wet and you plug it in, it just won't charge, and it'll pop up a toaster telling you to dry it off before charging it.
I switched to Qi charging because my S7 always thinks its wet and won't charge over USB anymore. I guess that restriction doesn't apply to wireless charging.
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@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
non-pedantically to mean "without interruption for unlimited time"
Why? Why do you think this?
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What about just sleeping in a van for a few nights?
If You’re Going to New York You Can Rent This Van in Soho on Airbnb
“No bathroom inside but many nearby”
Something like this was in an episode of Elementary so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's a real thing.
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@boomzilla said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@Zerosquare said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Can I ask a naive question?What's the use case for submerging your smartphone for more than 30 minutes, no matter what the depth?
Probably leaving it in a pocket when you do your laundry. Obviously, times will vary, but I suspect you're unlikely to have a wash or rinse cycle longer than that.
My washer usually runs for 58 minutes.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@boomzilla said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@Zerosquare said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Can I ask a naive question?What's the use case for submerging your smartphone for more than 30 minutes, no matter what the depth?
Probably leaving it in a pocket when you do your laundry. Obviously, times will vary, but I suspect you're unlikely to have a wash or rinse cycle longer than that.
My washer usually runs for 58 minutes.
Yes, but the tub isn't full of water that whole time. It fills up, washes, drains, fills up, drains.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Why? Why do you think this?
Do you really want to re-open this pointless debate? I feel like I had dragged it out way too long already...
If so:
Obviously it's because of my Superior Reading Comprehension Skills
. Let's go back to the quote in question:Here you have info about what the second number in IP code means. Respectively 7 and 8:
- 7 - Immersion, up to 1 m depth- Ingress of water in harmful quantity shall not be possible when the enclosure is immersed in water under defined conditions of pressure and time (up to 1 m of submersion). - Test duration: 30 minutes - ref IEC 60529, table 8.
- 8 - Immersion, 1 m or more depth - The equipment is suitable for continuous immersion in water under conditions which shall be specified by the manufacturer. However, with certain types of equipment, it can mean that water can enter but only in such a manner that it produces no harmful effects. The test depth and duration is expected to be greater than the requirements for IPx7, and other environmental effects may be added, such as temperature cycling before immersion. - Test duration: Agreement with Manufacturer
Now, lets contrast the two descriptions (IPx7 vs IPx8).
For 7, it says "Ingress of water in harmful quantity shall not be possible when the enclosure is immersed in water under defined conditions of pressure and time"
It says nothing about "continuously", but the 30 minutes would obviously have to be continuous, otherwise it wouldn't mean anything. It also specifically mentions that the manufacturer can define a limit in time.
Now for 8: "The equipment is suitable for continuous immersion in water under conditions which shall be specified by the manufacturer." Note that the word "continuously" has been added, which wasn't present for 7 although we'd have to assume that immersion in that case would also have to be continuous over the specified period according to the dictionary definition. I'm also pretty sure I have encountered the word "continuously" before in similar contexts, where it was used to underline that the condition applied continuously over extended periods of time. In addition, for IPx7 the possibility for a time limit was explicitly stated, and for IPx8 it's not.
To me these differences, in addition to the statement that "The test depth and duration is expected to be greater than the requirements for IPx7", clearly imply that IPx8 is supposed to indicate possibility of longer submersion than IPx7, and the absence of any mention of time limit together with the presence of the word "continuously" (which would otherwise be entirely superfluous) suggest to me that immersion should be possible for an indefinite duration.
Of course, as I wrote before (if you've gotten that far down-thread yet), I'll admit that this interpretation is just that, an interpretation of the quoted words which applies some speculation and common sense, because if you only look at the literal meaning of the words they don't actually mean anything. Thus I assume that the words which have been used have been put there for a reason and that the two bullet points form a coherent whole. Doing this, I arrive at the conclusion that the most probable intended meaning is that IPx7 can be submerged for a limited time (typically 30 minutes, though the text is not clear on that), while IPx8 can be submerged indefinitely (or at least significantly longer than IPx7, which was the original contested point).
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@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@loopback0 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
a bit you missed
Didn't miss that, but my interpretation of "continuous immersion" would preclude limitations on time under that bit. As you suggest, I might be wrong with my interpretation, but going full-
on that line of thinking, any definition of IP68 which would match both the Wikipedia and Samsung definitions of IP68 would be completely meaningless:- "Continuous immersion" does not imply duration, so duration can be defined in "manufacturer's conditions". Wikipedia does not provide any minimum duration.
- Test duration is "expected to be" more than for IP67 but doesn't have to be. Samsung does not claim a longer duration (they claim the same duration), so apparently I can just completely ignore this.
Thus, I could make a device which is can be "continuously immersed" for 5 picoseconds (manufacturer's condition) but no longer, and it would be IP68. So I maintain that @kt_ 's post does not show what it claims to show, because it's either contradictory or ambiguous.
XS is IP68 and it promises 5 feet for 30 minutes. I understand this line the same as @loopback0. Plus, still no base for the claim that Galaxy S7 can do 1m indefinitely.
Yes. It is IP68, and it promises five feet for thirty minutes. These two facts are not necessarily related.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@loopback0 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
a bit you missed
Didn't miss that, but my interpretation of "continuous immersion" would preclude limitations on time under that bit. As you suggest, I might be wrong with my interpretation, but going full-
on that line of thinking, any definition of IP68 which would match both the Wikipedia and Samsung definitions of IP68 would be completely meaningless:- "Continuous immersion" does not imply duration, so duration can be defined in "manufacturer's conditions". Wikipedia does not provide any minimum duration.
- Test duration is "expected to be" more than for IP67 but doesn't have to be. Samsung does not claim a longer duration (they claim the same duration), so apparently I can just completely ignore this.
Thus, I could make a device which is can be "continuously immersed" for 5 picoseconds (manufacturer's condition) but no longer, and it would be IP68. So I maintain that @kt_ 's post does not show what it claims to show, because it's either contradictory or ambiguous.
XS is IP68 and it promises 5 feet for 30 minutes. I understand this line the same as @loopback0. Plus, still no base for the claim that Galaxy S7 can do 1m indefinitely.
Yes. It is IP68, and it promises five feet for thirty minutes. These two facts are not necessarily related.
Yes, still no source or proof for your claim. Never go full fox.
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@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
interpratiom
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@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@loopback0 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
a bit you missed
Didn't miss that, but my interpretation of "continuous immersion" would preclude limitations on time under that bit. As you suggest, I might be wrong with my interpretation, but going full-
on that line of thinking, any definition of IP68 which would match both the Wikipedia and Samsung definitions of IP68 would be completely meaningless:- "Continuous immersion" does not imply duration, so duration can be defined in "manufacturer's conditions". Wikipedia does not provide any minimum duration.
- Test duration is "expected to be" more than for IP67 but doesn't have to be. Samsung does not claim a longer duration (they claim the same duration), so apparently I can just completely ignore this.
Thus, I could make a device which is can be "continuously immersed" for 5 picoseconds (manufacturer's condition) but no longer, and it would be IP68. So I maintain that @kt_ 's post does not show what it claims to show, because it's either contradictory or ambiguous.
XS is IP68 and it promises 5 feet for 30 minutes. I understand this line the same as @loopback0. Plus, still no base for the claim that Galaxy S7 can do 1m indefinitely.
Yes. It is IP68, and it promises five feet for thirty minutes. These two facts are not necessarily related.
Yes, still no source or proof for your claim. Never go full fox.
I don't even have to take the effort of finding one when I can just quote your own back at you. I don't even have to take the effort of doing that when @ixvedeusi is doing it for me.
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@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
re-open this pointless debate?
Considering I was catching up on the thread? How would I know it was closed?
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
we'd have to assume
Ah, so your assumptions are the at the core. Got it. That is all.
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
I'm also pretty sure I have encountered the word "continuously" before in similar contexts, where it was used to underline that the condition applied continuously over extended periods of time.
But not infinite. Gotcha.
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
common sense,
E_DOES_NOT_EXIST
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
I assume that the words which have been used have been put there for a reason
Ah, your mistake. Gotcha.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@ixvedeusi said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@loopback0 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
a bit you missed
Didn't miss that, but my interpretation of "continuous immersion" would preclude limitations on time under that bit. As you suggest, I might be wrong with my interpretation, but going full-
on that line of thinking, any definition of IP68 which would match both the Wikipedia and Samsung definitions of IP68 would be completely meaningless:- "Continuous immersion" does not imply duration, so duration can be defined in "manufacturer's conditions". Wikipedia does not provide any minimum duration.
- Test duration is "expected to be" more than for IP67 but doesn't have to be. Samsung does not claim a longer duration (they claim the same duration), so apparently I can just completely ignore this.
Thus, I could make a device which is can be "continuously immersed" for 5 picoseconds (manufacturer's condition) but no longer, and it would be IP68. So I maintain that @kt_ 's post does not show what it claims to show, because it's either contradictory or ambiguous.
XS is IP68 and it promises 5 feet for 30 minutes. I understand this line the same as @loopback0. Plus, still no base for the claim that Galaxy S7 can do 1m indefinitely.
Yes. It is IP68, and it promises five feet for thirty minutes. These two facts are not necessarily related.
Yes, still no source or proof for your claim. Never go full fox.
I don't even have to take the effort of finding one when I can just quote your own back at you. I don't even have to take the effort of doing that when @ixvedeusi is doing it for me.
Ah, the joys of debating with kids…
Until you provide at least one link substantiating the claim that S7 is water-resistant up to 1m indefinitely, I'm out of this discussion with you.
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@Tsaukpaetra Que?
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@loopback0 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@Tsaukpaetra Que?
Apple, you know, Affordable. Like, the OP was about.
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@Tsaukpaetra I see.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
S7
Good, now we can continue bashing Affordable.
But can we do it continuously?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
S7
Good, now we can continue bashing Affordable.
I think I'm
ing. S7 is a Samsung.
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@kt_ I've already said at least twice that I may have been wrong about the 1m thing. But you wouldn't know that, of course, since you scan my post for the word "no" and immediately begin drafting your long-winded insulting reply.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ I've already said at least twice that I may have been wrong about the 1m thing. But you wouldn't know that, of course, since you scan my post for the word "no" and immediately begin drafting your long-winded insulting reply.
Putting your hurt feelings aside, can we finally agree as to a few facts?
- iPhone 7 is water-resistant, up to 1m for 30 minutes. It's IP67.
- Galaxy S7 is water-resistant, up to 1.5m for 30 minutes. It's IP68.
- Galaxy S7 does not promise indefinite water-resistance for any depth.
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@CodeJunkie said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@Tsaukpaetra said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
S7
Good, now we can continue bashing Affordable.
But can we do it continuously?
Yes. For half an hour.
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@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Galaxy S7 does not promise indefinite water-resistance for any depth.
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
It's IP68.
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
8: When the machine is submerged at a predetermined pressure for an undetermined period of time,
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@pie_flavor in what dictionary does undetermined mean infinite?
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@Jaloopa said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor in what dictionary does undetermined mean infinite?
Ask @ixvedeusi forever ago, but they checked out of the "debate" forever ago as well, after responding again a while ago.
See, we're not using a dictionary, because
. You must rely on "common sense" to understand the reality of the situation and derive meaning from the drabble.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Galaxy S7 does not promise indefinite water-resistance for any depth.
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
It's IP68.
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
8: When the machine is submerged at a predetermined pressure for an undetermined period of time,
Wait, I'll bite. Why does it say on their website that it's only for 30 minutes?
I'm pretty sure you're trolling here. Samsung disagrees with you, Apple disagrees with you, various manufacturers' sites that define IP68, even your beloved google disagrees with you:
And you're still holding on to your claim. You're either a retard or you're trolling.
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@boomzilla said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@Zerosquare said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Can I ask a naive question?What's the use case for submerging your smartphone for more than 30 minutes, no matter what the depth?
Probably leaving it in a pocket when you do your laundry. Obviously, times will vary, but I suspect you're unlikely to have a wash or rinse cycle longer than that.
That or not needing to leave it somewhere dry and not in sight when you're swimming at the beach.
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@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Wait, I'll bite. Why does it say on their website that it's only for 30 minutes?
Because it's a different, lower depth that it's for an undetermined amount of time for. Maybe it survives at 1m for infinite time and 5m for 30 minutes. That's a really easy way of satisfying these statements, a thing which I again said several posts ago but you ignored because you don't bother reading my posts. You only bothered reading it this time because I was only quoting your own words back at you. But the literal specification for IP*8 says that there must be a depth at which it can survive an undetermined amount of time for.
even your beloved google disagrees with you:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Wait, I'll bite. Why does it say on their website that it's only for 30 minutes?
Because it's a different, lower depth that it's for an undetermined amount of time for. Maybe it survives at 1m for infinite time and 5m for 30 minutes. That's a really easy way of satisfying these statements, a thing which I again said several posts ago but you ignored because you don't bother reading my posts. You only bothered reading it this time because I was only quoting your own words back at you. But the literal specification for IP*8 says that there must be a depth at which it can survive an undetermined amount of time for.
Of course you're wrong.
- If it were water resistant for indefinite amount of time, Samsung would've boasted that. They don't. So if you want to push that claim, you need to provide evidence, not just "a hunch". "Maybe it survives." Plus: it doesn't survive 5m for 30 minutes. It survives 5ft (1.5m). You need some reading comprehension.
- Both Apple and Samsung in case of their IP68-certified phones don't ever mention them being able to survive indefinite amount of time under any pressure.
even your beloved google disagrees with you:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
Exactly. You're just a troll. You completely disregard the only logical interpretation of the word "undetermined", which is also listed as the first one in the screenshot, and you decide to stick the one that sounds completely stupid here.
You also decided to disregard the fact that we don't have the actual definition from the spec. To the best of my knowledge, the spec is not available publicly. We only have several documents that interpret the spec and Wikipedia is extremely ambiguous in their definition.
(Note that in one of the documents it says that "8 means a user-specified durability. It would seem like 7 is a specific standard, while 8 means a custom standard, which might not necessarily need to be built upon 7. This would explain why Samsung and Apple have the same definition -- they compete in the same market -- but other manufacturers from different industries describe this standard differently.)
But no, you decided to stick with the illogical interpretation of Wikipedia's wording instead of accepting the real-world examples of IP68 implementations and guarantees that the manufacturers give.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
Even if you go by the second definition this would be wrong. You see that example of the bus? "Undetermined" number does not mean any number. Unless, of course, you assume it's a clown bus which holds an infinite number of clowns.
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@Rhywden said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Unless, of course, you assume it's a clown bus which holds an infinite number of clowns.
Stop describing this forum.
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@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Wait, I'll bite. Why does it say on their website that it's only for 30 minutes?
Because it's a different, lower depth that it's for an undetermined amount of time for. Maybe it survives at 1m for infinite time and 5m for 30 minutes. That's a really easy way of satisfying these statements, a thing which I again said several posts ago but you ignored because you don't bother reading my posts. You only bothered reading it this time because I was only quoting your own words back at you. But the literal specification for IP*8 says that there must be a depth at which it can survive an undetermined amount of time for.
Of course you're wrong.
- If it were water resistant for indefinite amount of time, Samsung would've boasted that.
For the vast number of people who intend to leave their phone in a puddle of water for more than thirty minutes, obviously.
- Both Apple and Samsung in case of their IP68-certified phones don't ever mention them being able to survive indefinite amount of time under any pressure.
'Course they do. Right where they say 'this phone is IP68'.
even your beloved google disagrees with you:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
Exactly. You're just a troll. You completely disregard the only logical interpretation of the word "undetermined", which is also listed as the first one in the screenshot, and you decide to stick the one that sounds completely stupid here.
What sounds stupid about 'unknown length of time means they don't know what length of time it is'?
You also decided to disregard the fact that we don't have the actual definition from the spec. To the best of my knowledge, the spec is not available publicly. We only have several documents that interpret the spec and Wikipedia is extremely ambiguous in their definition.
But no, you decided to stick with the illogical interpretation of Wikipedia's wording instead of accepting the real-world examples of IP68 implementations and guarantees that the manufacturers give.
Yes, let's look at some of those graphics.
Strange! It's almost like many people interpret it exactly this way! What a troll I must be for daring to agree with manufacturers.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong? I don't think you do, because odds are you'll reply to this post with something equally retarded as you've been replying with so far.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Wait, I'll bite. Why does it say on their website that it's only for 30 minutes?
Because it's a different, lower depth that it's for an undetermined amount of time for. Maybe it survives at 1m for infinite time and 5m for 30 minutes. That's a really easy way of satisfying these statements, a thing which I again said several posts ago but you ignored because you don't bother reading my posts. You only bothered reading it this time because I was only quoting your own words back at you. But the literal specification for IP*8 says that there must be a depth at which it can survive an undetermined amount of time for.
Of course you're wrong.
- If it were water resistant for indefinite amount of time, Samsung would've boasted that.
For the vast number of people who intend to leave their phone in a puddle of water for more than thirty minutes, obviously.
So you think that Samsung and Apple have phones that can be kept under 1m of water indefinite amount of time and they never mention it in their marketing materials?
You're even stupider than you sound!
- Both Apple and Samsung in case of their IP68-certified phones don't ever mention them being able to survive indefinite amount of time under any pressure.
'Course they do. Right where they say 'this phone is IP68'.
Hope you realize how moronic you sound.
iPhone
Powerful. Beautiful. Durable. Check out the new iPhone 15 Pro, iPhone 15 Pro Max, iPhone 15, and iPhone 15 Plus.
iPhone XS and iPhone XS Max are splash, water, and dust resistant and were tested under controlled laboratory conditions with a rating of IP68 under IEC standard 60529 (maximum depth of 2 meters up to 30 minutes).
even your beloved google disagrees with you:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
Exactly. You're just a troll. You completely disregard the only logical interpretation of the word "undetermined", which is also listed as the first one in the screenshot, and you decide to stick the one that sounds completely stupid here.
What sounds stupid about 'unknown length of time means they don't know what length of time it is'?
What sounds stupid is "this means that it's indefinitely". It doesn't. And both manufacturers state that they can only guarantee up to 30 minutes, which is corroborated by tests.
The IP68 dust- and water-resistance Ingress Protection rating means your device is completely protected against dust, and it is water-resistant in up to 5 feet of water for up to 30 minutes.
Support Home | Official Samsung Support US |
Samsung Care is here to help. Get started, find helpful content and resources, and do more with your Samsung products.
In what world does "up to 30 minutes" mean "we don't know how long it'll take".
You also decided to disregard the fact that we don't have the actual definition from the spec. To the best of my knowledge, the spec is not available publicly. We only have several documents that interpret the spec and Wikipedia is extremely ambiguous in their definition.
But no, you decided to stick with the illogical interpretation of Wikipedia's wording instead of accepting the real-world examples of IP68 implementations and guarantees that the manufacturers give.
Yes, let's look at some of those graphics.
Strange! It's almost like many people interpret it exactly this way! What a troll I must be for daring to agree with manufacturers.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong? I don't think you do, because odds are you'll reply to this post with something equally retarded as you've been replying with so far.https://www.mpl.ch/info/IPratings.html
7: Protected against short periods of immersion in water.
8: Protected against long, durable periods of immersion in water.https://www.samsung.com/au/support/mobile-devices/water-and-dust-protection-ip68/ (SAMSUNG!!!)
Do not immerse the device in water deeper than 1.5 metres and do not keep it submerged in water less than 1.5 metres deep for more than 30 minutes.
Strange, it's as if even Samsung disagrees with your claim about their phones. Again!
7: Protection against strong water jets and waves.
8: Protected against temporary immersion.Wait a sec, they can get devices certified for IP x8, when they can only guarantee "temporary" immersion?
unbox:http://www.inscapedata.com/pdf/IP68.pdf
7 Protection against effects of immersion from 15cm to 1m
8 Protection against complete, continuous submersion in water from 15 meters or 50 feetAgain, a discrepancy. It's as if manufacturers of different kinds of equipment define "their" guarantee for 8 differently. It's as if... it depends!
And finally:
Not all devices that are IP68 are intended to be continuously submerged, some only require a temporary rating to protect from occasional submersion.
For example a pressure transmitter installed below ground level will be vulnerable to flooding during periods of heavy rainfall. In these applications the pressure transmitter only needs to be protected for a duration of a few days.
The most vulnerable part of a pressure transmitter to water ingress is the electrical interface and typically a mating connector with a temporary immersion specification would be used in flood risk areas.
It is particularly important to check the duration specified for a temporary IP68 in flood zones since the required duration will vary depending on the nature of flood risk.
[snip]
Due to the inter-relationship between depth and duration, an IP68 specification for temporary immersion may indicate more than one rating for the same device e.g. 10mH2O for 48 hours or 50mH2O for 6 hours.All IP68 ratings should be accompanied by a specified depth and duration, however it is not always clearly indicated in manufacturer’s technical data sheets especially for those products which are obviously intended for long duration submersion such as borehole sensors.
So go on and suck my dick.
This topic is done for me. Unless you can actually provide a full IEC 60529 document, I have out-proven you. I've shown a huge number of companies that get the 8 rating for submersion for non-indefinite amount of time. I have also shown a few companies clearly specifying that "time and depth are to be specified by the company/agreed with user". All of your argument holds only on your interpretation of the word "continuous" and some (different!) interpretations of the 8 rating, which just further proves my point (environment for 8 is to be established by the manufacturer).
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Arguing over IP ratings is the stuff of legends.
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@admiral_p said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Arguing over IP ratings is the stuff of legends.
"Gather round, gather round and let me tell you a story from the Age of Pendantry!"
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@Rhywden said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@admiral_p said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Arguing over IP ratings is the stuff of legends.
"Gather round, gather round and let me tell you a story from the Age of Pendantry!"
"An undetermined amount of time ago..."
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@Luhmann 1.6204e-16 parsecs
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
You're 100% wrong here. I understand your confusion, but you're just wrong. The spec is leaving it open for the manufacturers to define. It's not saying that the end user must determine the time when they submerge it.
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@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@kt_ said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Wait, I'll bite. Why does it say on their website that it's only for 30 minutes?
Because it's a different, lower depth that it's for an undetermined amount of time for. Maybe it survives at 1m for infinite time and 5m for 30 minutes. That's a really easy way of satisfying these statements, a thing which I again said several posts ago but you ignored because you don't bother reading my posts. You only bothered reading it this time because I was only quoting your own words back at you. But the literal specification for IP*8 says that there must be a depth at which it can survive an undetermined amount of time for.
Of course you're wrong.
- If it were water resistant for indefinite amount of time, Samsung would've boasted that.
For the vast number of people who intend to leave their phone in a puddle of water for more than thirty minutes, obviously.
So you think that Samsung and Apple have phones that can be kept under 1m of water indefinite amount of time and they never mention it in their marketing materials?
You're even stupider than you sound!
Dunno how you'd figure that out, since how I sound is entirely how you're basing your measure of how stupid I am on. Unless it's an undetermined amount of stupid.
- Both Apple and Samsung in case of their IP68-certified phones don't ever mention them being able to survive indefinite amount of time under any pressure.
'Course they do. Right where they say 'this phone is IP68'.
Hope you realize how moronic you sound.
Significantly less moronic than the guy who thinks that 'undetermined' means 'determined somewhere'.
Powerful. Beautiful. Durable. Check out the new iPhone 15 Pro, iPhone 15 Pro Max, iPhone 15, and iPhone 15 Plus.
iPhone XS and iPhone XS Max are splash, water, and dust resistant and were tested under controlled laboratory conditions with a rating of IP68 under IEC standard 60529 (maximum depth of 2 meters up to 30 minutes).
MAXIMUM depth. Again, they are perfectly capable of stating two related facts adjacently without implying that one fact is the exact same thing as the other.
even your beloved google disagrees with you:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
Exactly. You're just a troll. You completely disregard the only logical interpretation of the word "undetermined", which is also listed as the first one in the screenshot, and you decide to stick the one that sounds completely stupid here.
What sounds stupid about 'unknown length of time means they don't know what length of time it is'?
What sounds stupid is "this means that it's indefinitely". It doesn't.
What also sounds stupid is when you say X, and I say but that's really saying Y, and you say X again without addressing the fact that it's really saying Y.
And both manufacturers state that they can only guarantee up to 30 minutes, which is corroborated by tests.
At that depth.
The IP68 dust- and water-resistance Ingress Protection rating means your device is completely protected against dust, and it is water-resistant in up to 5 feet of water for up to 30 minutes.
Support Home | Official Samsung Support US |
Samsung Care is here to help. Get started, find helpful content and resources, and do more with your Samsung products.
In what world does "up to 30 minutes" mean "we don't know how long it'll take".
In what world does the duration at the maximum depth mean the duration at all depths up to the maximum?
You also decided to disregard the fact that we don't have the actual definition from the spec. To the best of my knowledge, the spec is not available publicly. We only have several documents that interpret the spec and Wikipedia is extremely ambiguous in their definition.
But no, you decided to stick with the illogical interpretation of Wikipedia's wording instead of accepting the real-world examples of IP68 implementations and guarantees that the manufacturers give.
Yes, let's look at some of those graphics.
Strange! It's almost like many people interpret it exactly this way! What a troll I must be for daring to agree with manufacturers.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong? I don't think you do, because odds are you'll reply to this post with something equally retarded as you've been replying with so far.https://www.mpl.ch/info/IPratings.html
7: Protected against short periods of immersion in water.
8: Protected against long, durable periods of immersion in water.Yeah, it was annoying having to filter out the 'long periods' ones. But if *7 is thirty minutes, I would wager that thirty minutes isn't exactly a long period. So you're still wrong.
(SAMSUNG!!!)
What is an IP rating and how do I properly care for my Mobile device? | Samsung Australia
FAQ for Samsung mobile and wearables. Find more about 'Water and Dust Protection IP68' with Samsung Support.
Do not immerse the device in water deeper than 1.5 metres and do not keep it submerged in water less than 1.5 metres deep for more than 30 minutes.
Strange, it's as if even Samsung disagrees with your claim about their phones. Again!
That doesn't sound like a specification.
7: Protection against strong water jets and waves.
8: Protected against temporary immersion.Wait a sec, they can get devices certified for IP x8, when they can only guarantee "temporary" immersion?
Right? Sounds weird. Better to ignore theirs, as they disagree with nearly everyone else.
unbox:http://www.inscapedata.com/pdf/IP68.pdf
7 Protection against effects of immersion from 15cm to 1m
8 Protection against complete, continuous submersion in water from 15 meters or 50 feetYou realize you quoted one agreeing with me, right? What do you think continuous means? If you need help, read the one I posted using the same language.
Again, a discrepancy. It's as if manufacturers of different kinds of equipment define "their" guarantee for 8 differently. It's as if... it depends!
The depth, anyway. The duration must be infinite.
And finally:
Not all devices that are IP68 are intended to be continuously submerged, some only require a temporary rating to protect from occasional submersion.
For example a pressure transmitter installed below ground level will be vulnerable to flooding during periods of heavy rainfall. In these applications the pressure transmitter only needs to be protected for a duration of a few days.
The most vulnerable part of a pressure transmitter to water ingress is the electrical interface and typically a mating connector with a temporary immersion specification would be used in flood risk areas.
It is particularly important to check the duration specified for a temporary IP68 in flood zones since the required duration will vary depending on the nature of flood risk.
Boring blather about how some IP68-worthy devices only need an IP67 certification. I don't bore you with irrelevant shit, what did I do to deserve this from you?
[snip]
Due to the inter-relationship between depth and duration, an IP68 specification for temporary immersion may indicate more than one rating for the same device e.g. 10mH2O for 48 hours or 50mH2O for 6 hours.@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Maybe it survives at 1m for infinite time and 5m for 30 minutes. That's a really easy way of satisfying these statements
All IP68 ratings should be accompanied by a specified depth and duration, however it is not always clearly indicated in manufacturer’s technical data sheets especially for those products which are obviously intended for long duration submersion such as borehole sensors.
From exactly one manufacturer. Corroboration, please. We've established that there's discrepancies.
So go on and suck my dick.
I told you, that's @admiral_p's field.
This topic is done for me.
Toodles.
Unless you can actually provide a full IEC 60529 document,
Imagine for once actually having a @Rhywden excuse and having it be valid.
I have out-proven you.
If that's how it truly appears to you, you're stupider than your IP rating implies.
I've shown a huge number of companies that get the 8 rating for submersion for non-indefinite amount of time.
Without showing that there is no depth that their products can last infinitely long at, which would be what actually proves anything.
I have also shown a few companies clearly specifying that "time and depth are to be specified by the company/agreed with user".
Last I checked, 'one' isn't 'a few'. 'A few' being the number you'd need to actually prove anything.
All of your argument holds only on your interpretation of the word "continuous"
Well, it just started to. Lucky guess. It used to depend on the interpretation of the word 'undetermined'.
and some (different!) interpretations of the 8 rating, which just further proves my point (environment for 8 is to be established by the manufacturer).
The same way that 'rape' means whatever you want it to mean, because different countries disagree on what constitutes rape. Come on, that was practically a @djls45 argument. I expect better from you.
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@Luhmann said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@loopback0 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
undetermined amount of time
30 minutes?
Can't be. That would be determined.
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@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
You're even stupider than you sound!
Dunno how you'd figure that out, since how I sound is entirely how you're basing your measure of how stupid I am on. Unless it's an undetermined amount of stupid.
OK, this sentence actually proves me wrong, cause it makes you sound stupider than you are.
unbox:http://www.inscapedata.com/pdf/IP68.pdf
7 Protection against effects of immersion from 15cm to 1m
8 Protection against complete, continuous submersion in water from 15 meters or 50 feetYou realize you quoted one agreeing with me, right? What do you think continuous means? If you need help, read the one I posted using the same language.
Indeed I did. It's sad to me that you can't understand the point I'm making: 8 is open for the manufacturers to define, since different requirements are needed in different industries. So I happily posted a link to a spec that stuck to that.
Let me bols the relevant part for you, cause I know that working with kids requires visual aids.
I'm gonna use the part you quoted in your own post, but failed to understand.
Again, a discrepancy. It's as if manufacturers of different kinds of equipment define "their" guarantee for 8 differently. It's as if... it depends!
The depth, anyway. The duration must be infinite.
You see? A discrepancy between the specs I posted.
Unless you can actually provide a full IEC 60529 document,
Imagine for once actually having a @Rhywden excuse and having it be valid.
Yeah, cause requirement for facts can never Trump your feels. Got it? Trump!
All of your argument holds only on your interpretation of the word "continuous"
Well, it just started to. Lucky guess. It used to depend on the interpretation of the word 'undetermined'.
Of course it does, little buddy. Here, have a candy.
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@boomzilla said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@pie_flavor said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
Exactly. A period of time that is not known. It can't just stand up to time periods that you've determined beforehand; it must be able to stand up to any time period whether you've determined it or not.
You're 100% wrong here. I understand your confusion, but you're just wrong. The spec is leaving it open for the manufacturers to define. It's not saying that the end user must determine the time when they submerge it.
And it uses the word "continuous" to stress that the time specified must mean that the device was not taken out. It can't be "40 minutes" meaning "10 minutes 4 times". It has to be continuous 40 minutes.
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Fucking found it:
Source: https://ia600405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.in.is.iec.60529.2001/is.iec.60529.2001.pdf
QED.
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@pie_flavor I'm deeply impressed that "my excuse" is now being held up as a shining example from you of all people considering that you are the biggest troll here about it, must've missed me now admitting repeatedly that this was wrong and general being an ass about it.
In short: Fuck you. Admit that you're wrong for once.
Maybe we should create a special topic in the Garage just for the special snowflake you are. It's "but her emails" on steroid. And you keep pulling this crap to dodge everything whenever someone even remotely demands of you to provide some facts.
In short: You know what you're doing here. Not only do you have no leg to stand on, no, you're now trying to pull the: "But someone else did it too!" card. Which doesn't put you on my level. No, it puts you way below me, you asshole.
This is not the Garage you fucker.
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I've
readcontributed to some boring-ass arguments on here, but boy, this one takes the cake.
Filed under: hyphen
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@Luhmann said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
@loopback0 said in The A in Apple is for Affordable:
undetermined amount of time
30 minutes?
No, 6000 years. Since any longer than that is impossible, it's effectively an indeterminate amount of time ago
IP Ratings Explained - know your enclosure Ingress Protection ratings
Are all IP68 Water Resistant Protection Ratings the same
