Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...
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https://hrscene.com/community/local-trick-or-treat-times-laws-and-guidelines/
If any person over the age of 12 years shall engage in the activity commonly known as “trick or treat” or any other activity of similar character or nature under any name whatsoever, he or she shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $25.00 nor more than $100.00 or by confinement in jail for not more than six months or both.
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It's basically vandalism and extortion. Why it's so surprising?
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
It's basically vandalism and extortion. Why it's so surprising?
Actually, it's begging strangers for food.
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@da-Doctah If you disguise yourself in a costume with a fake but realistic looking gun, it's technically armed robbery.
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@The_Quiet_One said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
fake but realistic looking gun
It's USA. They have mandatory orange tips.
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It shall be unlawful for any person over the age of thirteen (13) years but under the age of eighteen (18) years to be present on any street, road, alley, avenue, park or other public place in the city, or in any vehicle operating or parked thereon, between the hours of 11 p.m. and 5 a.m., unless accompanied by his/her parent or guardian or unless such minor is on an emergency errand or legitimate business directed by his parent or guardian or is engaged in a lawful employment or going directly to the place of such employment or returning directly to his place of residence from the place of such employment.
I thought the other laws on when children are allowed to be outside were BS, but then I saw this one. The village council (or whatever they have) must be overrun by the
-elderly.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
I thought the other laws on when children are allowed to be outside were BS, but then I saw this one. The village council (or whatever they have) must be overrun by the
-elderly.Just occasionally, it does seem like The Purge has the right general idea.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
It shall be unlawful for any person over the age of thirteen (13) years but under the age of eighteen (18) years to be present on any street, road, alley, avenue, park or other public place in the city, or in any vehicle operating or parked thereon, between the hours of 11 p.m. and 5 a.m., unless accompanied by his/her parent or guardian or unless such minor is on an emergency errand or legitimate business directed by his parent or guardian or is engaged in a lawful employment or going directly to the place of such employment or returning directly to his place of residence from the place of such employment.
I thought the other laws on when children are allowed to be outside were BS, but then I saw this one. The village council (or whatever they have) must be overrun by the
-elderly.What? This is about the most lenient law you might possibly think of, save for no restriction at all. Unless guardian means legal guardian, ie. it must be you personally who's with your child and not just any adult person?
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@dkf said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
I thought the other laws on when children are allowed to be outside were BS, but then I saw this one. The village council (or whatever they have) must be overrun by the
-elderly.Just occasionally, it does seem like The Purge has the right general idea.
Your post reminded me of that one quest in Witcher 3. It's one of those quests where I really wish I could just rope an NPC to the fence so they can't do anything stupid.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
save for no restriction at all
Well, this. I seriously never before heard that curfew for minors was an actual thing. What is that trying to accomplish?
For under-12 year olds? Seems unnecessary ... Again, what's the goal with that? But whatever.
For 17 year olds? Back in the day, that would have put a serious dent into my partying. Or hanging around with friends. Or late night gaming. Or going to the cinema. Or ... you know, whatever. Even when I was around 15, I fairly regularly returned around or just after midnight.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
save for no restriction at all
Well, this.
Thanks goodness. It was the only logical explanation of your extreme overreaction. I'd feel bad for concluding you're illogical.
I seriously never before heard that curfew for minors was an actual thing. What is that trying to accomplish?
Save children from parents who don't give a fuck. Like every other law that has "parent" and "child" in the same sentence.
For 17 year olds? Back in the day, that would have put a serious dent into my partying. Or hanging around with friends. Or late night gaming. Or going to the cinema. Or ... you know, whatever. Even when I was around 15, I fairly regularly returned around or just after midnight.
There are lots of people who'd call that irresponsible parenting. And they have a fairly good reason.
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@Gąska And they’re probably the kind of helicopter parents who won’t let the kids use a butter knife until the age of 23.
Reminds me: when I was in the states there was this town festival one day and these guys wouldn’t let their 11 year old son walk half a mile home alone, at 9pm in daylight.
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@topspin yep, it's either free range farming of children or permanent invigilation from the day they're born until the day one of you dies. Absolutely no middle ground is possible whatsoever.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Save children from parents who don't give a fuck.
Meh. Not sure how much you "save" those children by making them hang around in a home with the parents that don't give a fuck, but I'll leave that particular argument to people who actually have a clue about such things.
There are lots of people who'd call that irresponsible parenting. And they have a fairly good reason.
It's not as if I was an exception regarding that, perhaps rather that I had stricter rules from my parents than most. IIRC the deal with my parents was something along the lines of that I should be at home at 20:00 (for dinner), unless I informed my parents before that and told them where I was/would be. The other deal was that if I planned to get home after 23:00, I'd better damn well do so myself.
IMO instead of irresponsible parenting, I'd call it being allowed to grow up instead of being helicoptered to death.
Filed under: You do a lot of growing up when it takes you about 2.5h to walk home after all public transportation has shut down.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@topspin yep, it's either free range farming of children or permanent invigilation from the day they're born until the day one of you dies. Absolutely no middle ground is possible whatsoever.
Yes, but it seemed what you’re arguing was on the far side of “permanent invigilation”. Maybe I misread you there.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Save children from parents who don't give a fuck.
Meh. Not sure how much you "save" those children by making them hang around in a home with the parents that don't give a fuck, but I'll leave that particular argument to people who actually have a clue about such things.
It saves them by stripping those parents of parental rights and taking their kids away. As to whether it's better or worse - I'll also leave this argument to people who actually know the answer.
There are lots of people who'd call that irresponsible parenting. And they have a fairly good reason.
Is that a "I have mine opinions, you have yours, whatever" kind of shrug or a "this is absolutely wrong but I don't have enough will to argue about it, so meh" kind of shrug?
IMO instead of irresponsible parenting, I'd call it being allowed to grow up instead of being helicoptered to death.
Before high school (becoming 16-and-then-some), when I wanted to go home late at night (after 10), my mom wanted to know not just where I'm going, but also the name and phone number of an adult person to contact in case of emergency. Obviously, that precluded me from most late night activities, since there were no such persons or no one was willing to give me their phones. I don't think it affected me negatively in any way - I have no social anxieties or other developmental problems. My liver is very strong too. So I don't think going home after midnight in 8th grade is a necessary element of becoming an adult. I'd even say that it makes them ever so slightly less likely to grow up, ironically (looking at your choice of words) because of higher death rate.
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You can go to jail for a misdemeanor? They consider an upper limit to a fine of $100 to be in the same
ballparkuniverse as 6 months in jail? And a local city council or whatever can just make up their own random reasons to jail you?So basically whenever you stop at a gas station in random-crazy-town you might violate their don’t-like-your-face law and go to jail??
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@topspin it all depends on you state and federal laws. And your lawyer. Because physically, they can detain whoever they want for however long they want.
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@topspin in general, the ranges are intended to consider severity of the violation as well as repeat offenses.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Is that a "I have mine opinions, you have yours, whatever" kind of shrug
I think I was aiming for this. I don't think the curfew is a good idea, but the rest is (largely) between the parents and the kids. I'd say that, normally, it's up to the parents to decide and set limits for their children. After all, again normally, they probably know best how well their children will handle themselves.
Before high school (becoming 16-and-then-some), when I wanted to go home late at night (after 10), my mom wanted to know not just where I'm going, but also the name and phone number of an adult person to contact in case of emergency. <snip />
I actually think that sounds perfectly reasonable, and it sounds that that worked for both you and your parents. The thing that I'm reacting to is the mandatory curfew. As said, I don't think it's necessary even for young children (let the parents deal with that), but for almost-adults ... it sounds ridiculous to me.
My liver is very strong too.
FWIW, that's a somewhat interesting thing (and a slight tangent). I grew up in a setting where having a glass of wine together with dinner was perfectly normal (for the adults). As a kid, you'd get a sip or two, perhaps a small glass later on, if you asked. I hated the taste of wine, so I pretty much never did.
I moved to a ... hmm ... nordic setting, where things were a bit different. Having some wine meant getting wasted and passing out, a fine tradition that was passed from parents to their children. For some reason, I never really got into that(*), whereas my friends would happily get totally wasted given the slightest opportunity.
(*) I later went to university, but that's a story for another time.
ironically (looking at your choice of words) because of higher death rate.
Hmm? Which part were you thinking about?
Did I tell you about the story when a kid from my class got chased by a moose during an orienteering event arranged by the school? Took a search effort over several hours to find him hiding in a tree somewhere in the forest... The forests up north are pretty big too.
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STOP RESISTING AND GET ON THE GROUND WITH YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR HEAD, NOW
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Before high school (becoming 16-and-then-some), when I wanted to go home late at night (after 10), my mom wanted to know not just where I'm going, but also the name and phone number of an adult person to contact in case of emergency. <snip />
I actually think that sounds perfectly reasonable, and it sounds that that worked for both you and your parents. The thing that I'm reacting to is the mandatory curfew.
Since I was almost never able to comply with that request, it effectively became a mandatory curfew.
As said, I don't think it's necessary even for young children (let the parents deal with that), but for almost-adults ... it sounds ridiculous to me.
It all comes down to the dissonance between what law considers an adult and what people consider an adult.
ironically (looking at your choice of words) because of higher death rate.
Hmm? Which part were you thinking about?
"Helicoptered to death."
Did I tell you about the story when a kid from my class got chased by a moose during an orienteering event arranged by the school? Took a search effort over several hours to find him hiding in a tree somewhere in the forest... The forests up north are pretty big too.
I know a similar story, except without a moose - just two dumbasses who couldn't read a map. The entire group was 3 hours late to home - well into evening.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Since I was almost never able to comply with that request, it effectively became a mandatory curfew.
With "mandatory curfew", I was referring to something mandated by law. Part of the problem is that the youths affected by this have very little they can do about it (other than hoping that the law looks the other way, I guess).
You at least had the direct opportunity to affect your "curfew" by, well, negotiating with your parents. FWIW, my parents didn't tell me either that I could stay away from home until $TIME at when I turned $AGE or anything. That was an set of rules that we mutually agreed upon - and that I had demonstrated that I could be trusted with at that point. In fact, until around 14, my rules probably looked very similar to the ones you mentioned.
"Helicoptered to death."
Ah. Forgot about that one.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
It's USA. They have mandatory orange tips.
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I suppose the perceptions of curfews vary from country to country.
Here (France), it's viewed as an exceptional measure, and it makes me think of World War II (to my knowledge, the last time a legal curfew existed) or something that may be enforced temporarily in case of a major crisis. Otherwise, it's considered a major violation of freedom to move. A young child roaming the streets at night would still raise eyebrows, and probably warrant a police visit for the parents, but is not considered illegal.
A few far-right mayors talked about introducing a legal curfew for minors, but AFAIK they never did.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
save for no restriction at all
Well, this. I seriously never before heard that curfew for minors was an actual thing. What is that trying to accomplish?
For under-12 year olds? Seems unnecessary ... Again, what's the goal with that? But whatever.
For 17 year olds? Back in the day, that would have put a serious dent into my partying. Or hanging around with friends. Or late night gaming. Or going to the cinema. Or ... you know, whatever. Even when I was around 15, I fairly regularly returned around or just after midnight.
AIUI, it is to help prevent truancy and gang activity and protect children from predators.
Some parents are lazy, incompetent, too busy, or otherwise unwilling to raise their own children; child curfew laws are attempts to get the government to help raise them instead.
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@topspin said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
You can go to jail for a misdemeanor?
Yes, for a little while.
They consider an upper limit to a fine of $100 to be in the same
ballparkuniverse as 6 months in jail?Legislative bodies are not always known for their sense of proportionality.
And a local city council or whatever can just make up their own random reasons to jail you?
So basically whenever you stop at a gas station in random-crazy-town you might violate their don’t-like-your-face law and go to jail??
I haven't read the article, but according to the quote in the OP, it's limited to activities that are similar to trick-or-treating, regardless of actually being called "trick-or-treating."
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That sounds rather like treating the symptom instead of the cause.
If the children you keep off the streets end up binge-watching TV, visiting hardcore porn sites or harassing other children online, you've simply moved the problem.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Did I tell you about the story when a kid from my class got chased by a moose during an orienteering event arranged by the school?
No, you didn't, but I think her brøthër hâs.
Filed under: "A møøse once bit my sister..."
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@djls45 said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
ë [...] â
You're more likely to find those in french than any Scandinavian language.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
It's basically vandalism and extortion. Why it's so surprising?
It's extortion by threat of vandalism. My understanding is that in its origin (a) the kids were a little older - no three-year-olds dressed as fairies - and (b) the option was "give us a treat or we''ll play a trick on you".
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@topspin said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
You can go to jail for a misdemeanor?
In the US a misdemeanor is generally defined as a crime with a maximum punishment of less than a year in jail.
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@boomzilla I see. What's the name for something like a parking violation?
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@topspin said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@boomzilla I see. What's the name for something like a parking violation?
Those are usually not considered criminal at all. Likewise most speeding tickets, unless it's particularly egregious and then it might be termed something like reckless driving, which can be a misdemeanor.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Save children from parents who don't give a fuck.
Meh. Not sure how much you "save" those children by making them hang around in a home with the parents that don't give a fuck, but I'll leave that particular argument to people who actually have a clue about such things.
It saves them by stripping those parents of parental rights and taking their kids away. As to whether it's better or worse - I'll also leave this argument to people who actually know the answer.
There are lots of people who'd call that irresponsible parenting. And they have a fairly good reason.
Is that a "I have mine opinions, you have yours, whatever" kind of shrug or a "this is absolutely wrong but I don't have enough will to argue about it, so meh" kind of shrug?
IMO instead of irresponsible parenting, I'd call it being allowed to grow up instead of being helicoptered to death.
Before high school (becoming 16-and-then-some), when I wanted to go home late at night (after 10), my mom wanted to know not just where I'm going, but also the name and phone number of an adult person to contact in case of emergency. Obviously, that precluded me from most late night activities, since there were no such persons or no one was willing to give me their phones. I don't think it affected me negatively in any way - I have no social anxieties or other developmental problems.
Objection! Strong objection! Extremely strong objection! Even stronger extremely strong objection! Death!
Seriously, though, can't agree with you. You don't have to be out drinking to want to return later. Even if you turned out ok, this doesn't mean that not having those rules in place would screw someone else up. It also doesn't mean these were good rules.
Further, putting such ideas into law seems dangerous. If the police is lenient on that one, why have it in he first place. If they're strict, it's extremely bad, robbing teenagers of their exploration years, late night gaming, hanging out with girls, heck! even drinking, why not?
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Before high school (becoming 16-and-then-some), when I wanted to go home late at night (after 10), my mom wanted to know not just where I'm going, but also the name and phone number of an adult person to contact in case of emergency. <snip />
I actually think that sounds perfectly reasonable, and it sounds that that worked for both you and your parents. The thing that I'm reacting to is the mandatory curfew.
Since I was almost never able to comply with that request, it effectively became a mandatory curfew.
For you, not for everyone. This is an important distinction. ;)
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@kt_ I wasn't defending that law. I was just saying that not staying outside late at night doesn't lead to developmental problems, as @cvi seemed to imply. I admit, on my first reading, I fucked up and thought it's about kids under 13, not over. But most of what I said still stands.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
Since I was almost never able to comply with that request, it effectively became a mandatory curfew.
With "mandatory curfew", I was referring to something mandated by law. Part of the problem is that the youths affected by this have very little they can do about it (other than hoping that the law looks the other way, I guess).
You at least had the direct opportunity to affect your "curfew" by, well, negotiating with your parents. FWIW, my parents didn't tell me either that I could stay away from home until $TIME at when I turned $AGE or anything. That was an set of rules that we mutually agreed upon - and that I had demonstrated that I could be trusted with at that point. In fact, until around 14, my rules probably looked very similar to the ones you mentioned.
This is an interesting take for me, because I was in a similar situation: I'd always negotiate with my parents, the rules were never really written down anywhere. I'd know what was happening and what I wanted, they knew what they could offer me, we'd talk. Sometimes is blow them off and come home later, sometimes I'd get punished for that.
My ex on the other hand was in a different situation, till she finished high school: 11 PM almost at all times. This was pretty annoying and stupid, since we'd still do stupid shit, like get wasted and have sex in her room, I'd just have to remember to leave early.
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@kt_ also. I never heard of a SINGLE instance of teenagers being outside after midnight without guardian and not drinking.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@kt_ also. I never heard of a SINGLE instance of teenagers being outside after midnight without guardian and not drinking.
I have. What do I get?
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@kt_ laughed at? That's usually what happens among teenagers if someone doesn't drink.
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@kt_ said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
My ex on the other hand was in a different situation, till she finished high school: 11 PM almost at all times. This was pretty annoying and stupid, since we'd still do stupid shit, like get wasted and have sex in her room, I'd just have to remember to leave early.
Doing stupid shit before 11PM is still a whole lot safer than the same activities after midnight. Especially for teenage girls.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@kt_ said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
My ex on the other hand was in a different situation, till she finished high school: 11 PM almost at all times. This was pretty annoying and stupid, since we'd still do stupid shit, like get wasted and have sex in her room, I'd just have to remember to leave early.
Doing stupid shit before 11PM is still a whole lot safer than the same activities after midnight. Especially for teenage girls.
Yeah, and before 5 PM it's even safer. It's not the question of "is it safer", it's a the question of "how unsafe it is".
Mind you, I'm not saying that they should've allowed her to stay out after 11 PM at all times, what I'm saying is that throwing me out of their house at 11 PM didn't do squat, and that not always was it really needed. Seriously, none of us got hurt, like ever, because we stayed out late. ;)
That's the thing, you need to judge the risk and allow the teenager to gather experiences when pertinent.
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@kt_ said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
This is an interesting take for me, because I was in a similar situation: I'd always negotiate with my parents, the rules were never really written down anywhere. I'd know what was happening and what I wanted, they knew what they could offer me, we'd talk. Sometimes is blow them off and come home later, sometimes I'd get punished for that.
Yeah, sounds similar. The rules weren't written down either, and there was some amount of flexibility. I didn't always stick to the rules either, and occasionally there would consequences. That's the way it worked for most people I know around that age.
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@kt_ also. I never heard of a SINGLE instance of teenagers being outside after midnight without guardian and not drinking.
Catching a late movie? Gaming (computer or otherwise)? Dinner at somebodies place? Or just getting home from wherever... Like, I don't think drinking was involved a majority of the time. (Yes, I was a nerd back then too.)
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@kt_ said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@kt_ said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
My ex on the other hand was in a different situation, till she finished high school: 11 PM almost at all times. This was pretty annoying and stupid, since we'd still do stupid shit, like get wasted and have sex in her room, I'd just have to remember to leave early.
Doing stupid shit before 11PM is still a whole lot safer than the same activities after midnight. Especially for teenage girls.
Yeah, and before 5 PM it's even safer. It's not the question of "is it safer", it's a the question of "how unsafe it is".
I would go even further - it's not the question of "how unsafe it is", it's the question of "how much unsafety are you willing to put your child in". Similar to food spiciness, every person has different tolerance levels, and one person's "perfect" is another person's "I can't even feel anything, it's so dull" - and at the same time, third person's "oh my God my face is melting need water FAST." It's just something that people will never agree about, simply because they have different tolerance levels of risk/spiciness.
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@cvi said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@kt_ also. I never heard of a SINGLE instance of teenagers being outside after midnight without guardian and not drinking.Catching a late movie?
I didn't think of that. But then, I never really liked cinema. Nevertheless, I can see how it might be a valid reason for staying long at night.
Gaming (computer or otherwise)?
Gaming, especially computer gaming, usually isn't something you do outside. And sports games usually isn't something you do at night.
Dinner at somebodies place?
Then you're at somebody's place - and since it's so late, you presumably stay there for a night too.
Or just getting home from wherever...
That usually means that you suck at planning and didn't even think beforehand that going home takes time too. A common thing among teenagers.
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@kt_ said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
@kt_ said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
My ex on the other hand was in a different situation, till she finished high school: 11 PM almost at all times. This was pretty annoying and stupid, since we'd still do stupid shit, like get wasted and have sex in her room, I'd just have to remember to leave early.
Doing stupid shit before 11PM is still a whole lot safer than the same activities after midnight. Especially for teenage girls.
Yeah, and before 5 PM it's even safer. It's not the question of "is it safer", it's a the question of "how unsafe it is".
I would go even further - it's not the question of "how unsafe it is", it's the question of "how much unsafety are you willing to put your child in".
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Agreed.
It's just something that people will never agree about, simply because they have different tolerance levels of risk/spiciness.
Yup. :)
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@Gąska said in Trick or treating can earn you some serious jail time...:
isn't something you do outside.
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@Luhmann ironically, this alone would still be significant improvement to overall health than playing games at home.
