Where am I standing as a programmer?
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Hello everyone. It's been a while since I last visited here. It says my last post was 2 years ago. How time flies.
I have not been in the software field since then. It's been at least 2 years I haven't been in a commercial project.
I haven't worked on any personal projects either.
Now I am trying to get back tonthe field.
But there is quite a change in my life.
I am in the U.S. and I have no idea what companies expect out of candidates.
While I was in Korea, I never worked on any project that involved any of the following
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unit testing like JUnit
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dependecy management like Maven
Now, I did work with Spring, Hibernate and SVN but can I even finish the configuration files without googling? No. Even then I won't be sure if I did it the right way.
I am lookimg for any position that would get my career back on track at the moment.
So what do companies expect out of candidates?
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
unit testing like JUnit
Still have not written a test in my life. This will change eventually.@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
dependecy management like Maven
Only dependencies I've managed is including references in the project.
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@Ascendant Welcome back!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Still have not written a test in my life.
It's not hard. Best done with library code; stuff that interacts with users is much harder to test properly.
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Now, I did work with Spring, Hibernate and SVN but can I even finish the configuration files without googling? No.
So? I use Google plenty even when working with stuff I know. I tend to remember things like “this sort of capability exists in this software” rather than anything to do with the details of exactly how: I can always search when I want the details. (In the bad old days, that search would be in a book. Nowadays, online resources are usually better.)
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
I am in the U.S. and I have no idea what companies expect out of candidates.
From what I've noticed, college diploma, a few years of experience of any sort (as long as keywords in resume and job posting match), and being able to answer trivia questions satisfactorily. Being non-white helps a bit too.
While I was in Korea, I never worked on any project that involved any of the following
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unit testing like JUnit
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dependecy management like Maven
Now, I did work with Spring, Hibernate and SVN but can I even finish the configuration files without googling? No. Even then I won't be sure if I did it the right way.
Don't worry, everyone learns most things they need only after they get the job. And nobody expects programmers to be able to do their job without googling.
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@Ascendant What were you doing in those two years? Did you find a saner profession? Tell us all about it.
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@Ascendant Plenty of US companies don't use unit testing or dependency management tools.
There's plenty of Java positions around, I'd just put out my resume and start interviewing. It sounds like once you get past an interview you'll do fine... anything you don't know now you can learn on the job, right? So your priority should be to get that rare interview experience.
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@stillwater It's a loooooong story but...
Came to California, couldn't find housing.
Moved to Oklahoma, been squatting at friends for 1 year while my green card process was finally finished.
(My wife's Korean spouse visa took 3 days to be done in Korea. She's American)All the while, I had no work authorisation. I had been a stay-at-home-dad. We burnt through our savings during this time.
Now I'm making 11.50/h working overnight shelf stocker.
Wife and I have had depression, PTSD, anxiety.
We could afford to see therapists, medicine and couple's therapists on the minimum wage in South Korea.That's still there. Can't afford therapists in America.(Duh?)
Wife needs ob/gyn checkups. Can't afford it. We could afford it any time while we were in Korea. I had to translate in the middle but still affordable and accessible.I was a fool and I took the K-NHS for granted.
P.S. Korean hospitals are all FOR PROFIT. The government and the Doctors' association engage in a price negotiation and keep the price low. So people visit hospitals more often. You would laugh what people go to hospitals for, if you're an American.
Right now, my shoulder joint hurts. I would have gone to a clinic to see if it's something bad or nothing serious. If it's something bad, I would still save money because I catch it early. Universal healthcare = poor care quality? Ha!
As hospitals are FOR PROFIT, THERE IS NO WAIT LIST.
Even the concept of a wait list is very ailien, unheard of.My insurance (You pay it every month but it's not a private company. It's the Korean National Healthcare Services) for 2 adults and 2 kids - was 50$. That included my wife who's an American. But Korean rationale is that if you're married to a Korean, have kids , and live here, you are family. We've got you.
Now if you think I'm going over to the patriotic side and comparing unfavorably against the U.S. don't get me wrong. There are plenty of shit I don't like about Korea.
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Thanks everyone for advice. I had felt discouraged after a few phone calls from recruiters. They said they need a portfolio because of the gap in my career(the 1year or so of waiting for my green card). I don't have a portfolio. I don't know what kind of web app I should make for that purpose either.
And I felt - and still kinda feel inadequate.
I am fantasising that American software engineers know all the frameworks' config by heart and are an expert in algorithms and design patterns.
I had to take a job, any job to pay the bills and the rent.
So I took this overnight shelf stocking.Koreans tell each other that America is a great place to live. They even say it's a welfare heaven.
What a fool I was. I had no idea and I dismissed my wife's warnings.
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@blakeyrat Learn whatever I don't know on the job? Absolutely.
I've been doing some soul searching while I stack mute boxes on mute shelves.
Shelf stocking, while a noble and honorable profession, gives me no joy nor metal stimulation I need and want. It kinda drives me nuts. And I realised how much I loved programming and how much I miss it.
There is only one thing that makes me hesitate from going back to Korea.
Ageism and other social construcs.
I (32y old) am too old to start my career over as an entry level in Korea. And Koreans seem to think expertise in SE is volitile and evaporates with a year or so of not coding. So they won't take me as a guy with at least some experience.
Now there are startups in Korea. They don't seem to adhere to the usual Korean social constructs but I'm not sure.
This immigration process has been the adventure of my life!
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
I am fantasising that American software engineers know all the frameworks' config by heart and are an expert in algorithms and design patterns.
Nope, that's Poland.
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@Gąska
I'm tempted to wax lyrical how all your programs run smooth because they are well-polished, but you probably hear it often 'round here.
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@Applied-Mediocrity what I usually hear is "kurwa"
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@Gąska
and also likely „ja pierdolę, jak to w ogóle działało” (how the fuck was it working in the first place)I have this a lot.
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@Gąska
Then I'd say you're in desperate need of a CoC.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Still have not written a test in my life.
@blakeyrat said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Plenty of US companies don't use unit testing or dependency management tools.
AKA sign of a company
@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
I am fantasising that American software engineers know all the frameworks' config by heart
HELL NO. That's what the docs are for
and are an expert in algorithms and design patterns.
Maybe if you're working in a core group at one of the Big 4 or working in a specialized field, e.g. High Frequency Trading, Computer Vision, Machine Learning, or Artificial Intelligence for algorithms. I would expect that a developer had a good working knowledge of these though. And I'd expect I'd be able to talk about the common Gang of Four patterns (Decorator, Builder, Factory, Facade, Adapter, Composite, etc.)
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Now, I did work with Spring, Hibernate and SVN but can I even finish the configuration files without googling? No.
I would hazard a guess that most people can't. There is just too much to know about so many different topics. Plus, a great way to learn is by doing.
Google leads you to documentation and technical people who seek out documentation when they don't know something are those willing to learn new things all the time. Nothing wrong with that. There is a big difference between being willing to learn and blindly copying and pasting snippets and hoping it works.
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@JazzyJosh "And I'd expect I'd be able to talk about the common Gang of Four patterns (Decorator, Builder, Factory, Facade, Adapter, Composite, etc.)"
Expect that most adequate programmers know and appropriately apply the GoF patterns or expect that only out of the ones in AI or high frequency trading?
Just trying to get your message clear.
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Expect that most adequate programmers know and appropriately apply the GoF patterns
This.
or expect that only out of the ones in AI or high frequency trading
Very much not this. When an area is very “hot”, there's not enough competent people to fill all the jobs available for it and it ends up filled with inadequate fools who are doing it for the money and not because they're any good. Which puts off some of the able people. (There'll also be some of the very able about who are doing their thing in the “hot” area because that's what they want to do, and they'll keep on doing it once it ceases to be hot.) Find something that you can stand to do for many years, don't go chasing random trends; you want a career for you (and your family) not for temporary excitement.
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Koreans tell each other that America is a great place to live. They even say it's a welfare heaven.
Their mistake is miscalling Canada "America"
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@dkf yep.
But remind me to talk with you about B L O C K C H A I N
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
I am fantasising that American software engineers know all the frameworks' config by heart and are an expert in algorithms and design patterns.
The important thing to remember about the software industry is this: We are losing old, experienced devs steadily, while gaining young, inexperienced devs exponentially. This causes our average skill level to be on a steady, rapid decline. Thus, if you have any level of skill, you will float above all that.
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@dkf said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Find something that you can stand to do for many years, don't go chasing random trends
What about frontend developers?
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@Ascendant Well I hope you don't give up. Nobody's going to tell you the US has a great, or even adequate, healthcare system, but even in Oklahoma (hopefully you're in an urban part of the State) you shouldn't have too much trouble finding employment.
If I were you, here's what I would do:
- Find the State's unemployment service, even if you don't qualify for benefits, you probably qualify for their job placement assistance. (BTW: I might be bias here from living in a good State, so this could be wrong.)
- Put your name out there all over. LinkedIn, reply to any position no matter how unqualified you feel, start doing interviews. Two things to remember here:
- You have all the power. If you pass an interview and don't want the job, don't take it. If you find a job you do want, but the pay's too low, negotiate. You have all the power in this relationship. Take all interview requests.
- Genuine interview experience is the hardest type of experience to get. You can easily practice C++ or Ruby or Python or Visual Studio Online, but it's extremely difficult to practice a genuine stressful interview experience-- and practice makes perfect.
And two other points you might understand but a lot of neophytes who don't have confidence in themselves usually trip on:
- Job requirements are bullshit. The requirement "15 years of C# coding experience" really just means "you can intelligently talk about C# to another developer". It doesn't matter if you have 15 years or 1 years or 2 months. Remember: if you got invited to an interview, they read your resume so they know exactly what you're about.
- Everybody who's hired has some part of the job they don't know how to do when they're hired. For developers, usually that's the actual problem domain the company operates in-- sure you're a great programmer, but we do insurance for trucking companies, so now you have to learn how insurance for trucking companies works. Everybody. There isn't a single person on earth who can sidle into a job without learning something new.
And just as another note: the US experience is HIGHLY based on what State you're in. Washington State, for example, has Apple Health, which is basically a free or subsidized-to-the-point-of-being-practically-free healthcare system that you almost certainly would qualify for. When I was unemployed, I had free healthcare no strings attached, no questions asked, for as long as I was eligible for unemployment insurance (and possibly longer; I'm not sure when it expired). (Note: I'm not an expert, don't move across the country based on some bullshit from some asshole in a forum.)
Oklahoma is probably a State with less programs to help immigrants, since they have fewer of them, and probably a State with fewer social programs, since they're politically very red since the 1950s. I'm totally stereotyping here, but I'm probably also correct. Just keep that in mind when talking to people back home about your experiences in the US.
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@Magus said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Thus, if you have any level of skill, you will float above all that.
As long as you get through recruitment process. Which is surprisingly much harder than one might think.
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@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
As long as you get through recruitment process. Which is surprisingly much harder than one might think.
You can bypass it entirely if you have a network. Even on LinkedIn, if you see a company you're interested in, find the highest level employee you can and shoot out an email saying "hey do you want to meet for coffee". Sure you'll get a lot of nos, or ignores, but they cost you very little.
I think another problem a lot of developers have in getting employment is that it's a very social process. I know I have a problem with that, being an extremely introverted person. But it's just one more reason you need to get all the interview experience you can.
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@blakeyrat said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
As long as you get through recruitment process. Which is surprisingly much harder than one might think.
You can bypass it entirely if you have a network.
Creating a network is surprisingly much harder than one who didn't just immigrate into a completely new country might think.
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@Gąska I don't doubt it, but tools like LinkedIn are very powerful none-the-less.
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@blakeyrat they help with the long-term goal of finding good job opportunities down the road of your career. They don't help with the short-term goal of finding a job, any job, right now. And the former isn't nearly as important as the latter.
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@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@blakeyrat they help with the long-term goal of finding good job opportunities down the road of your career. They don't help with the short-term goal of finding a job, any job, right now.
I disagree. I just above posted a strategy that could help you find a job in the short-term.
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@blakeyrat said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
As long as you get through recruitment process. Which is surprisingly much harder than one might think.
You can bypass it entirely if you have a network. Even on LinkedIn, if you see a company you're interested in, find the highest level employee you can and shoot out an email saying "hey do you want to meet for coffee". Sure you'll get a lot of nos, or ignores, but they cost you very little.
I think another problem a lot of developers have in getting employment is that it's a very social process. I know I have a problem with that, being an extremely introverted person. But it's just one more reason you need to get all the interview experience you can.
By passing the standard process on the basis of personal connectionn is very odd to me. Please forgive me for beimg so foreign but that practice is highly frowned upon back in the old country and that idea is somewhat embedded in my mindset. However, I am all for adaptimg to a new environment and if that is ok in America, I should give it a try. Thank you for your advice!
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@blakeyrat IIRC, last time we talked about this topic, you (or someone else maybe) said that making connections is a slow process that requires lots of time and effort and that it effectively amounts to making and maintaining friendships. It's especially hard if you have a full time job - and if you haven't starved to death yet, chances are you do have a full time job.
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@TimeBandit said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Koreans tell each other that America is a great place to live. They even say it's a welfare heaven.
Their mistake is miscalling Canada "America"
Lol
indeed
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@Gąska LinkedIn has its roots as a networking/business relationship tool, but lately it's become more and more of a general job search/recruitment tool.
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@Gąska I am on the verge of giving it all up and trade in for healthcare back home. One must be able to breathe before he can code, to exaggerate a little lol.
But before I reach that point, I shall try my best to hold down a software engineering position.
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@blakeyrat said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
As long as you get through recruitment process. Which is surprisingly much harder than one might think.
You can bypass it entirely if you have a network. Even on LinkedIn, if you see a company you're interested in, find the highest level employee you can and shoot out an email saying "hey do you want to meet for coffee". Sure you'll get a lot of nos, or ignores, but they cost you very little.
I think another problem a lot of developers have in getting employment is that it's a very social process. I know I have a problem with that, being an extremely introverted person. But it's just one more reason you need to get all the interview experience you can.
By passing the standard process on the basis of personal connectionn is very odd to me. Please forgive me for beimg so foreign but that practice is highly frowned upon back in the old country and that idea is somewhat embedded in my mindset. However, I am all for adaptimg to a new environment and if that is ok in America, I should give it a try. Thank you for your advice!
Well, it's not entirely bypassing - you still have to go through the recruitment process, it's just that if you search for job through friends instead of ads, it's much easier to get invited for interview in the first place, and a recommendation from someone already working in the company is a very strong bonus to your score, making them more likely to pick you over someone else with equivalent competence.
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@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@dkf said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Find something that you can stand to do for many years, don't go chasing random trends
What about frontend developers?
I must confess, that the seemingly blinded hypes in the frontend are the reasons that I avert from the frontend development. I see a lot of front end job posting but every three month they are lookimg for a different framework? But I guess frontend beats shelf stocking, eh?
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@blakeyrat said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Everybody who's hired has some part of the job they don't know how to do when they're hired. For developers, usually that's the actual problem domain the company operates in-- sure you're a great programmer, but we do insurance for trucking companies, so now you have to learn how insurance for trucking companies works. Everybody. There isn't a single person on earth who can sidle into a job without learning something new.
Yes, and this is something most people struggle with to the point that they put off seeking employment at a job they may love. No one has 100% coverage of every single domain, just realize that you can learn what you need to. All of the people working there had to learn something when they took the job, you will be no different. Apply. The absolute worst thing they can do is tell you no.
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
But I guess frontend beats shelf stocking, eh?
I'm not so sure about that
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@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@blakeyrat they help with the long-term goal of finding good job opportunities down the road of your career. They don't help with the short-term goal of finding a job, any job, right now. And the former isn't nearly as important as the latter.
Bullshit.
He didn't say it would be easy. He just said it is a necessary step. Persistence pays dividends.
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@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
By passing the standard process on the basis of personal connectionn is very odd to me. Please forgive me for beimg so foreign but that practice is highly frowned upon back in the old country and that idea is somewhat embedded in my mindset. However, I am all for adaptimg to a new environment and if that is ok in America, I should give it a try. Thank you for your advice!
The worst thing they can do is say no.
Here in America persistence is usually valued. It means you are hungry and that you want the job. To the right person it will put you 100 steps ahead of all the others who fire off applications like a shotgun blast and hope they hit something. To the wrong person they will block you as spam and you have lost nothing.
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@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@blakeyrat IIRC, last time we talked about this topic, you (or someone else maybe) said that making connections is a slow process that requires lots of time and effort and that it effectively amounts to making and maintaining friendships. It's especially hard if you have a full time job - and if you haven't starved to death yet, chances are you do have a full time job.
That was me, and that is one way to do it. I also suggested that as you mentioned you had almost nothing to put on a resume.
The underlying point is that motion creates emotion. Networking is a contact sport. Contact people. Whether it is meet-ups or firing off emails offering to buy someone coffee, just do something.
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@Gąska I see what you mean. Sorry, I thought you meant "get hirednimmediately without an interview because you are buddies with the CTO" typenof deal. But I see what you mean now.
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@Polygeekery said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@blakeyrat they help with the long-term goal of finding good job opportunities down the road of your career. They don't help with the short-term goal of finding a job, any job, right now. And the former isn't nearly as important as the latter.
Bullshit.
He didn't say it would be easy. He just said it is a necessary step. Persistence pays dividends.
"Persistence" and "dividends" isn't what I usually associate with "short-term".
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@Polygeekery said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
Networking is a contact sport.
PSA: don't take the above literally.
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@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Polygeekery said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Gąska said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@blakeyrat they help with the long-term goal of finding good job opportunities down the road of your career. They don't help with the short-term goal of finding a job, any job, right now. And the former isn't nearly as important as the latter.
Bullshit.
He didn't say it would be easy. He just said it is a necessary step. Persistence pays dividends.
"Persistence" and "dividends" isn't what I usually associate with "short-term".
Those words do not necessarily have the connotations you are ascribing to them.
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@Magus said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
@Ascendant said in Where am I standing as a programmer?:
I am fantasising that American software engineers know all the frameworks' config by heart and are an expert in algorithms and design patterns.
The important thing to remember about the software industry is this: We are losing old, experienced devs steadily, while gaining young, inexperienced devs exponentially. This causes our average skill level to be on a steady, rapid decline. Thus, if you have any level of skill, you will float above all that.
I've known plenty of old, experienced developers without a particularly good level of skill
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@Jaloopa I don't see where I said otherwise.
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@blakeyrat Aww but I already packed all my stuff to move to Washington?
