"I used to work for Tesla…"
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@blakeyrat said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Weng Well remember electric cars are bad because cars should be powered only by coal directly taken out of Pennsylvania (and cleaned with care with a toothbrush, of course) to save the 50,000 jobs or whatever of that useless shitty industry MAGA MAGA MAGA MAGA MAGA! Bomb Cuba
... or put another way, remember you're talking to Boomzilla.
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@anotherusername said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Gurth said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@anotherusername said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
Jobs at least ran a tight ship while he was alive
Yes, he’s not been running things so well anymore since he died.
No, and neither has his successor.
As I've said before, Apple seems to only exist in two possible states: successful as Steve Jobs's own little cult of personality, or failing without him at the helm.
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@masonwheeler said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@anotherusername said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Gurth said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@anotherusername said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
Jobs at least ran a tight ship while he was alive
Yes, he’s not been running things so well anymore since he died.
No, and neither has his successor.
As I've said before, Apple seems to only exist in two possible states: successful as Steve Jobs's own little cult of personality, or failing without him at the helm.
Do you use any metrics to determine this?
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@Rhywden said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@boomzilla It's an easily solved problem: Just like you don't put a car with a full gas tank onto the salvage yard, you simply de-energize the battery at the first opportunity after a crash.
Just that easy, eh?
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@Polygeekery What, you don't know how to drain a battery? For a simple proof of concept, take the battery in your car. Then carefully grab hold of the black terminal with your right hand, then very carefully grab the red with your left hand.
You may need to recharge the battery afterwards.
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@Gribnit said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Polygeekery What, you don't know how to drain a battery? For a simple proof of concept, take the battery in your car. Then carefully grab hold of the black terminal with your right hand, then very carefully grab the red with your left hand.
You may need to recharge the battery afterwards.
Literally nothing would happen. Too much resistance and too little voltage.
But that person was suggesting you draw down a battery capable of putting out 100,000 watts of heat for an hour like it is nothing. You can't just simply draw them down. It is not a trivial task.
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@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
You can't just simply draw them down. It is not a trivial task.
You could burn them...
Or mine bitcoin.
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@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Gribnit said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Polygeekery What, you don't know how to drain a battery? For a simple proof of concept, take the battery in your car. Then carefully grab hold of the black terminal with your right hand, then very carefully grab the red with your left hand.
You may need to recharge the battery afterwards.
Literally nothing would happen. Too much resistance and too little voltage.
But that person was suggesting you draw down a battery capable of putting out 100,000 watts of heat for an hour like it is nothing. You can't just simply draw them down. It is not a trivial task.
Yeah, if the battery was undamaged, you could simply discharge it in a similar amount of time it takes to charge it, but if it’s undamaged there would be no risk in the first place.
IMHO, the main problem is that the “battery” is actually made of several modules with many cells each. If this battery assembly gets damaged, you might end up with a broken connection opening the circuit. Or, one module might short out and loose capacity and if you try to discharge the whole battery then it probably won’t work out very well once that module if fully discharged.
I don’t know the details of that battery pack but I agree it’s not a simple matter. I suppose it can be done but slowly and if you’re unlucky you might need to open the thing to access the modules directly.
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I only got about 20 posts in but...this is the QAnon version of Tesla isn't it? I knew Elon was a fucking Lizard person...
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@Zerosquare said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Benjamin-Hall: you mean you never became frustrated and threw your laptop out of the window?
😱 no!
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@Zerosquare I take my frustrations out on one of
- my students (not really)
- my D&D players' characters
- virtual creations of data that are blown up by the score. Mainly this one.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
virtual creations of data that are blown up by the score. Mainly this one.
People say this induces violence and should be banned. I say yes it does; it induces violence against virtual entities, and prevents said violence from arising later and being targeted against something else.
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@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Gribnit said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Polygeekery What, you don't know how to drain a battery? For a simple proof of concept, take the battery in your car. Then carefully grab hold of the black terminal with your right hand, then very carefully grab the red with your left hand.
You may need to recharge the battery afterwards.
Literally nothing would happen. Too much resistance and too little voltage.
But that person was suggesting you draw down a battery capable of putting out 100,000 watts of heat for an hour like it is nothing. You can't just simply draw them down. It is not a trivial task.
Why not? I'm not suggesting that you don't have to have specialized equipment but feeding the energy back into the grid is something every photovoltaic setup does easily.
And that's just one example. I'm pretty sure there are more ways to do this easily.
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@Rhywden
Wait for Tesla to over engineer a solution
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@Rhywden but you're talking about doing it on a wrecked vehicle, often by the side of a random road in the middle of a crash site. With no guarantee of grid access, no guarantee that your connection with the battery is still intact, and much more pressing things to do, like save the people. By people who aren't experts (since they're firemen instead).
Once it's burst into flames once, it's too late. There's no sane way of discharging that battery.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Rhywden but you're talking about doing it on a wrecked vehicle, often by the side of a random road in the middle of a crash site. With no guarantee of grid access, no guarantee that your connection with the battery is still intact, and much more pressing things to do, like save the people. By people who aren't experts (since they're firemen instead).
Once it's burst into flames once, it's too late. There's no sane way of discharging that battery.
Why? Also, the original impetus came from an article where a Tesla reignited after days had passed.
And, please, even our firemen over here have access to technical manuals which tell them how to deal with a specific brand of cars. That's something that has existed for the longest time now - those manuals came about because you sometimes need to know where you can cut away the shell. The manuals now have been extended where every important aspect of a car is covered.
That includes how to deal with batteries.
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@Rhywden said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Benjamin-Hall said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Rhywden but you're talking about doing it on a wrecked vehicle, often by the side of a random road in the middle of a crash site. With no guarantee of grid access, no guarantee that your connection with the battery is still intact, and much more pressing things to do, like save the people. By people who aren't experts (since they're firemen instead).
Once it's burst into flames once, it's too late. There's no sane way of discharging that battery.
Why? Also, the original impetus came from an article where a Tesla reignited after days had passed.
And, please, even our firemen over here have access to technical manuals which tell them how to deal with a specific brand of cars. That's something that has existed for the longest time now - those manuals came about because you sometimes need to know where you can cut away the shell. The manuals now have been extended where every important aspect of a car is covered.
That includes how to deal with batteries.
Yes. It did reignite. But once it's ignited the first time, on the road, the battery is compromised. You no longer have a clear path from one cell to the next, or at least you can't rely on that. So if you try to discharge it later, you're more likely to just make it ignite in your face. Plus all the hardware you'd need to discharge it may no longer be intact. So you'd have to gingerly remove each cell, one at a time, assess its stability, and then discharge it. And if it's already been on fire once, the chances of many of those being intact is...small.
A technical manual that tells you "cut here" is very different than one that tells you how to dissassemble the battery from a crunched-up car, figure out which cells are still intact-ish, which ones are safe to deal with, while the whole thing is on fire in a way that's self-oxidizing (so all you can do is try to keep it cool, you can't really smother the flames well at all).
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@Benjamin-Hall Those are two different things we're talking about here.
So I call
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@Rhywden said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Benjamin-Hall Those are two different things we're talking about here.
So I call
Huh?
My point was that
a) you can't discharge a battery once it's already caught fire. At least not in a sane, safe way.
b) if it reignites, it must have already ignited once. That's what that word means.
c) therefore, you'd have to discharge it on the road, at the crash site.That's exactly what was being talked about--your proposal (to discharge the battery before storing it) being totally impractical. Because by the time you've taken it to the yard, it's already too late.
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@Rhywden said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Gribnit said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Polygeekery What, you don't know how to drain a battery? For a simple proof of concept, take the battery in your car. Then carefully grab hold of the black terminal with your right hand, then very carefully grab the red with your left hand.
You may need to recharge the battery afterwards.
Literally nothing would happen. Too much resistance and too little voltage.
But that person was suggesting you draw down a battery capable of putting out 100,000 watts of heat for an hour like it is nothing. You can't just simply draw them down. It is not a trivial task.
Why not? I'm not suggesting that you don't have to have specialized equipment but feeding the energy back into the grid is something every photovoltaic setup does easily.
And that's just one example. I'm pretty sure there are more ways to do this easily.A high-end Tesla is 100Kwh. Let's just say that every FD has a large inverter that they carry around for this. They won't, but let's explore how stupid your idea is.
The absolute most they could hope for would be a 230V 100amp tap going back to the grid if they found a home close to the wreck. So 23,000 watts if they max out that circuit. So a bit over 16 hours to draw it down.
That's before we get to the fact that the first line of action is to de-energize the car by cutting all the power feeds. So I am not sure how you even plan on them hooking to the batteries to draw them down.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Rhywden said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Benjamin-Hall Those are two different things we're talking about here.
So I call
Huh?
My point was that
a) you can't discharge a battery once it's already caught fire. At least not in a sane, safe way.
b) if it reignites, it must have already ignited once. That's what that word means.
c) therefore, you'd have to discharge it on the road, at the crash site.That's exactly what was being talked about--your proposal (to discharge the battery before storing it) being totally impractical. Because by the time you've taken it to the yard, it's already too late.
Maybe he suggested you do it while the car is on fire?
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@Rhywden said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Benjamin-Hall Those are two different things we're talking about here.
So I call
If that's true then it was you who because he was describing the issue I brought up.
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@anotherusername said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
Could you see St. Jobs running such a shoddy half-assed operation as the one that St. Elon has built?
Yes, I could. Apple under Jobs was all about UX to the exclusion of virtually all else, and things that were not really user visible often ended up rather shonky. Fortunately, they started from a strong basis with the codebase from NeXT so that a lot of trouble was avoided that way, but their output is very much not great in many ways. The one way in which they're quite good as a company is in their corporate discipline: there's very few leaks from within.
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@Gribnit said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
It's a typo, it was meant to be LiFePO4
But what it said was polonium.
TBF this battery nomenclature is a bit confusing. "LiPo" is actually not supposed to be LiPO, but "Po" means "polymer" there.
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@Rhywden said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@boomzilla It's an easily solved problem: Just like you don't put a car with a full gas tank onto the salvage yard, you simply de-energize the battery at the first opportunity after a crash.
Storing lithium batteries without a charge is really bad for them, I thought.
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@Benjamin-Hall Couldn't you build the batteries with an emergency device that shorts each cell with just enough resistance to not catch fire? And design it so it deploys whenever the stability of the device is compromised.
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@anonymous234 said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
Couldn't you build the batteries with an emergency device that shorts each cell with just enough resistance to not catch fire?
That is impossible. You are converting the energy in to heat. That heat has to go somewhere and we are talking about batteries that can put out 100,000 watts of heat for an hour.
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@anotherusername said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
Storing lithium batteries without a charge is really bad for them, I thought.
Only if you want to recharge them.
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@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@xaade said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
I pretty much considered him one of those hoax Solar Freakin Roadways types.
At some point I painfully realized that shit is surprisingly hard to argue with.
Where are you even going to start explaining what's wrong about the idea... The answer is clearly "EVERYTHING", but that's not very convincing for people who are so far away from reality that they think driving heavy trucks on glass and electronics is a good idea.Eh. Why not suggest to them putting the solar panels next to the road to avoid this problem. I bet some of them would concede that might be a possibility. For the ones that do, you've started them on the path of reasoning about it.
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@anonymous234 kind of a heat sink would handle that load?
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@anonymous234 said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Benjamin-Hall Couldn't you build the batteries with an emergency device that shorts each cell with just enough resistance to not catch fire? And design it so it deploys whenever the stability of the device is compromised.
What's wanted is a poison vs a short, it seems. Contain the equivalent of arsenic to our metabolism to the cell's electrochemistry, in a sturdy but expected to break first container, in each cell.
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@lolwhat and getting it to only engage in the right circumstances and be robust against crashes that might involve significant mechanical stress...
Plus having to have that heat sink available everywhere. Disposing of that much heat, especially fast is hard.
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@Gribnit said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@anonymous234 said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Benjamin-Hall Couldn't you build the batteries with an emergency device that shorts each cell with just enough resistance to not catch fire? And design it so it deploys whenever the stability of the device is compromised.
What's wanted is a poison vs a short, it seems. Contain the equivalent of arsenic to our metabolism to the cell's electrochemistry, in a sturdy but expected to break first container, in each cell.
The design decisions made by using cheap and (used to be) readily available Li-ion cells like 18650s and 20700s (I think that is what they are using now?) Makes this difficult to impossible.
A monolithic pack, or several larger packs, could make that feasible. Inject it in case of emergency and disable the pack. I am no chemist but I wonder if it is possible to do such a thing without creating massive amounts of heat, or requiring massive amounts of heat. Endothermic vs exothermic for the poison.
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@Gribnit The energy would still be there, waiting to be let loose.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@lolwhat and getting it to only engage in the right circumstances and be robust against crashes that might involve significant mechanical stress...
Plus having to have that heat sink available everywhere. Disposing of that much heat, especially fast is hard.
Meh. They are firefighters. They have water. Water has a very high specific heat. Dump the heat in to water from a hydrant.
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@Polygeekery They'd better have good electrical HPE...
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@lolwhat said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
The energy would still be there, waiting to be let loose.
Probably? Maybe? I am no chemist but just spitballing and using a lead acid battery as an analog so it is something similar but something I understand better, you should be able to poison a lead acid battery without releasing the energy. Pure sulphur should poison the cell as I think it would coat the plates and prevent electron transfer.
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@lolwhat said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
They'd better have good electrical HPE...
There are compounds that are electrically non-conductive that are also reasonably thermally conductive. Alumina's not too bad that way, for example, and is very cheap.
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@lolwhat said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Gribnit The energy would still be there, waiting to be let loose.
Well, not if the poisoning reduces the mixture to salts. But, if it does, then the energy has already been released. Thinking more along the lines of a poisoning that slows things to a crawl (kinda like arsenic does to our metabolism, hence the analogy...)
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@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
you should be able to poison a lead acid battery without releasing the energy
Yes, but it's still an accident waiting to happen. If you've packed lots of energy in there, it doesn't go away without you noticing (i.e., stuff doing useful work of some kind and/or getting hot). Chemistry isn't a shortcut round the law of conservation of energy…
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@chozang said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@xaade said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
I pretty much considered him one of those hoax Solar Freakin Roadways types.
At some point I painfully realized that shit is surprisingly hard to argue with.
Where are you even going to start explaining what's wrong about the idea... The answer is clearly "EVERYTHING", but that's not very convincing for people who are so far away from reality that they think driving heavy trucks on glass and electronics is a good idea.Eh. Why not suggest to them putting the solar panels next to the road to avoid this problem. I bet some of them would concede that might be a possibility. For the ones that do, you've started them on the path of reasoning about it.
And avoiding basically all of the stupidity of the original idea?
I think the appeal is that you're already wasting so much nature area and don't want to put it next to the roads as that wouldn't save any space. Whatever.
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@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@lolwhat said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
The energy would still be there, waiting to be let loose.
Probably? Maybe? I am no chemist but just spitballing and using a lead acid battery as an analog so it is something similar but something I understand better, you should be able to poison a lead acid battery without releasing the energy. Pure sulphur should poison the cell as I think it would coat the plates and prevent electron transfer.
You do realize that nobody has used lead acid batteries in electric cars in ages because the energy density is incredibly low, right?
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@Weng which, as a side note, is part of why the batteries in cars are low on the threat list. Just not all that much energy there (compared to the rest of the things). Toxic, sure. But not a significant fire/explosion risk.
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@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
I think the appeal is that you're already wasting so much nature area and don't want to put it next to the roads as that wouldn't save any space. Whatever.
Do the people who come up with this view roads mainly on maps, and drive only on 6+-lane highways running in a hollow in the ground or between noise barriers, maybe?
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@Weng said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@lolwhat said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
The energy would still be there, waiting to be let loose.
Probably? Maybe? I am no chemist but just spitballing and using a lead acid battery as an analog so it is something similar but something I understand better, you should be able to poison a lead acid battery without releasing the energy. Pure sulphur should poison the cell as I think it would coat the plates and prevent electron transfer.
You do realize that nobody has used lead acid batteries in electric cars in ages because the energy density is incredibly low, right?
You do realize that if you freaking read what I wrote you would know I didn't fucking say they did?
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@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@chozang said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@xaade said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
I pretty much considered him one of those hoax Solar Freakin Roadways types.
At some point I painfully realized that shit is surprisingly hard to argue with.
Where are you even going to start explaining what's wrong about the idea... The answer is clearly "EVERYTHING", but that's not very convincing for people who are so far away from reality that they think driving heavy trucks on glass and electronics is a good idea.Eh. Why not suggest to them putting the solar panels next to the road to avoid this problem. I bet some of them would concede that might be a possibility. For the ones that do, you've started them on the path of reasoning about it.
And avoiding basically all of the stupidity of the original idea?
I think the appeal is that you're already wasting so much nature area and don't want to put it next to the roads as that wouldn't save any space. Whatever.Put it over top of the median. Like in South Korea.
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@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@chozang said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
@xaade said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
I pretty much considered him one of those hoax Solar Freakin Roadways types.
At some point I painfully realized that shit is surprisingly hard to argue with.
Where are you even going to start explaining what's wrong about the idea... The answer is clearly "EVERYTHING", but that's not very convincing for people who are so far away from reality that they think driving heavy trucks on glass and electronics is a good idea.Eh. Why not suggest to them putting the solar panels next to the road to avoid this problem. I bet some of them would concede that might be a possibility. For the ones that do, you've started them on the path of reasoning about it.
And avoiding basically all of the stupidity of the original idea?
I think the appeal is that you're already wasting so much nature area and don't want to put it next to the roads as that wouldn't save any space. Whatever.Put it over top of the median. Like in South Korea.
Stop coming up with good ideas that don't involve trucks driving over glass!
No really, that looks reasonable.
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@Gurth No, but they're stupid anyway.
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@topspin said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
No really, that looks reasonable.
Anything is more reasonable than driving cars over solar panels. For instance, when we vacationed to Ohio we went to the Cincinnati Zoo and all of their parking spots are covered. When I looked a little closer on the way out I saw that they were all covered with solar panels.
Win-win, my vehicle stayed cooler and they got solar power from it.
Rooftops, parking lots, over bike paths, seating areas, virtually anything that would be better if covered can be covered with solar and it would be infinitely more sane than paving roads with solar panels.
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@Polygeekery said in "I used to work for Tesla…":
about ~100k lines of C code in a single file
Damn, that even beats the worst case of C++ I've seen.