Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy
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@xaade said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gribnit said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@admiral_p You are now advocating the teaching of Creationism in public schools. Stop. Back up. Look around.
You absolutely can teach Creationism in public schools, iff you retain context.
At what point do you stop teaching "there's a fringe opinion on everything"?
"Some people disclaim flat-earth theories, because they believe earth is torus-shaped."
"Some people believe Hitler was actually a Japanese Hentai-robot."
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@topspin at no point.
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@jmp said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@remi said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden I know, it's probably fraught with more problems than it solves (given that it wouldn't solve many ;-) ). But I'm sticking to my initial point, that Wikipedia (and other similar projects with far-reaching goals) should somehow recognize that some topics are out of their reach.
I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theory nut, but just like TV, Wikipedia has become very influential source of "wisdom", so there is much value in controlling the content of Wikipedia and making it cover controversial topics in a particular way. I'm pretty sure Wikipedia owners realize that. Avoiding controversial topics would make it less useful for shaping people's opinions (because you don't need to shape them on non-controversial topics to start with).
Making things a 'controversial opinion' then becomes the way you control the content of wikipedia. Say you're a PR person for some product that causes significant harms and you're trying to avoid regulation - think cigarettes or asbestos.
In a world where Wikipedia covers controversial topics, you try to get your bullshit studies and paid misinformers present on Wikipedia. You know the sort of thing: "Some scientists claim that $PRODUCT causes $ISSUE [1][2][3]. Others disagree [4][5][6].", followed by huge sections on the physical basis and the epidemiology and specific studies and what the US Surgeon General thinks etc.
In a world where Wikipedia doesn't cover controversial topics, you just get it marked controversial in Wikipedia and now the article just says "$PRODUCT is a thing. There is a controversy over its potential to cause $ISSUE [1][2][3]". That's it. Anyone wants further information, they have to find it from other sources, which means there's a nontrivial chance they're your PR source.
This isn't any better and is arguably worse.
It is definitely worse from the persuasion perspective. When people read something on Wikipedia, they're more likely to believe it than when it's somewhere else, similar to how they're going to believe NASA publications more than Youtube videos with yellow subtitles. Covering controversial topics on Wikipedia is more useful for shaping public's opinion than not doing it.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@topspin at no point.
Then you'll still be stuck teaching first grade stuff after ten years. But at least your pupils are filled to the brim with garbage knowledge, I guess that's something.
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@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@xaade said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gribnit said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@admiral_p You are now advocating the teaching of Creationism in public schools. Stop. Back up. Look around.
You absolutely can teach Creationism in public schools, iff you retain context.
At what point do you stop teaching "there's a fringe opinion on everything"?
"Some people disclaim flat-earth theories, because they believe earth is torus-shaped."
"Some people believe Hitler was actually a Japanese Hentai-robot."You can simply stop when the complaints about not including a certain theory are so few that you can disregard them.
Or you can just say, fuck it, this is bullshit, I'm not going to teach this crap. Whether it is the teacher's choice (they maintain a certain degree of independence, in most systems) or the school's choice, or the ministry's choice, they are all entitled to choose to do so.
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@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@topspin at no point.
Then you'll still be stuck teaching first grade stuff after ten years.
Schools are already teaching grade school stuff in high school. All education above 3rd grade is what was already taught, just in more detail.
But at least your pupils are filled to the brim with garbage knowledge, I guess that's something.
They already are. If we're going to teach them useless things anyway, we can at least make it a bit more fun.
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@Gąska Your schooling must have been incredibly awful if you think there's nothing more valuable to teach than "Some people believe Hitler was actually a Japanese Hentai-robot."
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@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
"Some people disclaim flat-earth theories, because they believe earth is torus-shaped."
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Schools are already teaching grade school stuff in high school. All education above 3rd grade is what was already taught, just in more detail.
Programming is just shoving zeros and ones around. Anyone can do that!
Of course it's "just more detail". That's how learning works!
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@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska Your schooling must have been incredibly awful if you think there's nothing more valuable to teach than "Some people believe Hitler was actually a Japanese Hentai-robot."
Internal structure of bacteria is just as valuable. And I've had several exams on it.
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Schools are already teaching grade school stuff in high school. All education above 3rd grade is what was already taught, just in more detail.
Programming is just shoving zeros and ones around. Anyone can do that!
Of course it's "just more detail". That's how learning works!
Are you missing my point on purpose, or do you actually think there's utility in teaching LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON EVER about Michelangelo's sculptures?
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Schools are already teaching grade school stuff in high school. All education above 3rd grade is what was already taught, just in more detail.
Programming is just shoving zeros and ones around. Anyone can do that!
Of course it's "just more detail". That's how learning works!
Are you missing my point on purpose, or do you actually think there's utility in teaching LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON EVER about Michelangelo's sculptures?
Yes, let's make everyone efficient little robots. "No Timmy, this is useless, it doesn't earn any money. Now lay down that book!"
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@Rhywden holy strawman batman. Is there any straw left in Germany after that one?
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Schools are already teaching grade school stuff in high school. All education above 3rd grade is what was already taught, just in more detail.
Programming is just shoving zeros and ones around. Anyone can do that!
Of course it's "just more detail". That's how learning works!
Are you missing my point on purpose, or do you actually think there's utility in teaching LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON EVER about Michelangelo's sculptures?
Yes, let's make everyone efficient little robots. "No Timmy, this is useless, it doesn't earn any money. Now lay down that book!"
Show a compelling argument why we SHOULDN'T make little robots.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Show a compelling argument why we SHOULDN'T make little robots
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden holy strawman batman. Is there any straw left in Germany after that one?
No, that's actually what is behind that argument. I've run into this mindset many times before. As evidenced by his reply.
Some people don't see any inherent value in this topic or that subject and as such, they want to get rid of it.
They didn't like it and thus no one else should like it.
It's always a different subject, though and the end result would be something cookie-cutter-like, deigned only to please the industry.
If you want specialized, focused knowledge that's what university or an apprenticeship is for.
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@Rhywden The thing you quoted was making every student learn all the details. You responded with a total strawman.
Is mind-reading taught in German schools?
FTR, I tend to agree with you (generally) on this point. Doesn't change that your post was a total malicious interpretation.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden The thing you quoted was making every student learn all the details. You responded with a total strawman.
Yes, because "literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo" in school. That argument itself was already a strawman but you chose to ignore that, right?
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
They didn't like it and thus no one else should like it.
You realize it's not at all what I've said?
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
If you want specialized, focused knowledge that's what university or an apprenticeship is for.
Exactly. Not the 8th grade. Not everybody must know how to write ISO 3098-2-compliant letters. In fact, almost nobody has to, in this day and age.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
They didn't like it and thus no one else should like it.
You realize it's not at all what I've said?
It's implied in your attitude - it reeks of that mindset. Been there, done that.
Now only comes the furious backpedalling.
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden The thing you quoted was making every student learn all the details. You responded with a total strawman.
Yes, because "literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo" in school. That argument itself was already a strawman but you chose to ignore that, right?
How is it a strawman? It's a fact that literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo, and other assorted artists. As well as what animals are native to what ecosystems around the planet, how various seas and gulfs in the world are named, and who fought on which side in the Thirty Years War 400 years ago.
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
They didn't like it and thus no one else should like it.
You realize it's not at all what I've said?
It's implied in your attitude - it reeks of that mindset. Been there, done that.
Oh, a mind reader!
Now only comes the furious backpedalling.
Backpedalling from what? Which exact sentence did I backpedal from, and to what? Also, after this so called "backpedalling", do you agree with my most recent position?
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden The thing you quoted was making every student learn all the details. You responded with a total strawman.
Yes, because "literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo" in school. That argument itself was already a strawman but you chose to ignore that, right?
How is it a strawman? It's a fact that literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo, and other assorted artists. As well as what animals are native to what ecosystems around the planet, how various seas and gulfs in the world are named, and who fought on which side in the Thirty Years War 400 years ago.
Even if your exaggeration was true (which it isn't): What exactly is the harm here? Does the world come to a sudden stop? Will The Great Green Arkleseizure suddenly deign to whip out the Great White Handkerchief?
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
They didn't like it and thus no one else should like it.
You realize it's not at all what I've said?
It's implied in your attitude - it reeks of that mindset. Been there, done that.
Oh, a mind reader!
No, as I said: Been there, done that. You're not the first who had those ideas, y'know? It's wholly unoriginal.
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Yes, let's make everyone efficient little robots. "No Timmy, this is useless, it doesn't earn any money. Now lay down that book!"
I think much of the knowledge at school could be made optional, or at least didn't need to be graded. Taking the extreme example, I think it's OK to talk to all the children about Michelangelo, but should they really fail a year if they can't remember it in a test?
I've seen a lot of schools marketing claiming to have better alternative methodologies, but dunno how they work.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Yes, let's make everyone efficient little robots. "No Timmy, this is useless, it doesn't earn any money. Now lay down that book!"
I think much of the knowledge at school could be made optional, or at least didn't need to be graded. Taking the extreme example, I think it's OK to talk to all the children about Michelangelo, but should they really fail a year if they can't remember it in a test?
I've seen a lot of schools marketing claiming to have better alternative methodologies, but dunno how they work.
In all my years at school I've yet to run into someone who failed a year due to Arts.
Seriously, if you fail a year then a lot has gone wrong before and Arts is the least of your problems - because you cannot fail due to a single subject.
I've had several pupils who approached me and whined: "But if you give me a failing grade then I'll have failed this year!" In the beginning this gave me pause until I realized (usually after seeing all their other grades at year's end) that if failing Physics also meant failing the year they'd have a failing grade in at least another major subject and an additional minor subject.
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@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@xaade said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gribnit said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@admiral_p You are now advocating the teaching of Creationism in public schools. Stop. Back up. Look around.
You absolutely can teach Creationism in public schools, iff you retain context.
At what point do you stop teaching "there's a fringe opinion on everything"?
"Some people disclaim flat-earth theories, because they believe earth is torus-shaped."
"Some people believe Hitler was actually a Japanese Hentai-robot."At what point do you stop teaching fringe economic theory?
At what point do you stop teaching objective historical events?
At what point do you stop teaching situational mathematical formula?
Over 500 million Buddhists, a billion Hindus, a billion Muslims, and 2 billion Christians. Combined, it's over half the world population. I think we can afford to teach major world religions.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
It's a fact that literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo, and other assorted artists. As well as what animals are native to what ecosystems around the planet, how various seas and gulfs in the world are named, and who fought on which side in the Thirty Years War 400 years ago.
c. f.
"You all remember," said the Controller, in his strong deep voice, "you all remember, I suppose, that beautiful and inspired saying of Our Ford's: History is bunk. History," he repeated slowly, "is bunk."
Filed Under: All hail the Great Ford
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
In all my years at school I've yet to run into someone who failed a year due to Arts.
I remember being worried about arts, history, PE, geography all the time. Amost failed on history once. Physicis and math was a breeze.
Now I don't see any utility knowing where some random river is.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
In all my years at school I've yet to run into someone who failed a year due to Arts.
I remember being worried about arts, history, PE, geography all the time. Amost failed on history once. Physicis and math was a breeze.
Now I don't see any utility knowing where some random river is.
And others don't see utility in [insert random subject].
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
And others don't see utility in [insert random subject].
Yes, that's the problem. Maybe things are better with these project based learning schools.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
And others don't see utility in [insert random subject].
Yes, that's the problem. Maybe things are better with these project based learning schools.
Someone still has to pick the subject for those projects...
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@sockpuppet7 said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
And others don't see utility in [insert random subject].
Yes, that's the problem. Maybe things are better with these project based learning schools.
Yeah...not so much. Those are (although this might be due to my natural cynicism) mostly a good way to avoid having any measurable objectives. "It's what the kids are interested in!"
@Rhywden In principle (according to the mavens in the US at least), the kids are supposed to pick the topics for the projects.
That's Inquiry, don't you know? Yes, even if they don't actually know enough to ask a meaningful question. Yes, they should have to build the entire edifice of modern knowledge on their own in a semester, what's the problem with that? </sarc>
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden The thing you quoted was making every student learn all the details. You responded with a total strawman.
Yes, because "literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo" in school. That argument itself was already a strawman but you chose to ignore that, right?
How is it a strawman? It's a fact that literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo, and other assorted artists. As well as what animals are native to what ecosystems around the planet, how various seas and gulfs in the world are named, and who fought on which side in the Thirty Years War 400 years ago.
Even if your exaggeration was true (which it isn't)
It's true in Poland at least. All the things I've mentioned, I've had on an exam at one point or another during my school years.
What exactly is the harm here?
Wasted time, wasted money, wasted opportunities to teach kids something actually valuable, and making them hate school, which discourages them from seeking education at all.
Does the world come to a sudden stop?
Did the world come to a sudden stop when your great grandfathers started purge of Untermensch? What kind of argument is that even? "It doesn't result in apocalypse so it's good"?
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@xaade said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
So, yes, you can teach creationism as long as the context "Some Christians believe [creationism]" is qualified and preserved. Most Christians however understand the context in which the bible was written and use it as a moral compass instead of considering it a scientific fact.
Tried to FTFY ;-)
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@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
You're not the first who had those ideas, y'know?
It's almost as if good ideas get picked up by other people!
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
In all my years at school I've yet to run into someone who failed a year due to Arts.
Have you met anyone who failed biology? Because my complaint is just as much about biology. And geography. And physics. And history. And every other piece of trivia that's useless for 99% of people (the remaining 1% are free to take special education in their area of interest).
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
I've had several pupils
Oh, right, you're a teacher. Of course you're going to defend your own kind and will never admit there's anything wrong with the system that guarantees eternal employment of you and all your colleagues.
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@sockpuppet7 said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
In all my years at school I've yet to run into someone who failed a year due to Arts.
I remember being worried about arts, history, PE, geography all the time. Amost failed on history once. Physicis and math was a breeze.
Now I don't see any utility knowing where some random river is.
And others don't see utility in [insert random subject].
I'm not talking about entire subjects. Of all the subjects I've had to take throughout years, the only one I can 100% certainly say that has no utility whatsoever, was Business Basics during my 2nd year in college. Everything else absolutely does have some uses in life. Yes, even arts.
What I complain about is that every single of those somewhat useful subjects, is mostly filled with useless information. It's good that they teach about forces and acceleration - but what's the use for special relativity? It's good that they teach about major historical events - by why do I have to remember all those people's names? It's good that they teach color composition - but what's the point of remembering famous painters' medical history?
I hate repeating myself, but I'm absolutely sure you'll miss this detail if I don't - I'M TALKING ABOUT GENERAL EDUCATION, NOT SPECIAL EDUCATION OF SPECIALISTS WHO NEED TO BE EXPERTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE DOMAINS.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska Your schooling must have been incredibly awful if you think there's nothing more valuable to teach than "Some people believe Hitler was actually a Japanese Hentai-robot."
Internal structure of bacteria is just as valuable. And I've had several exams on it.
I think it's immensely more valuable, but then YMMV.
Also, the point wasn't to think of something that's as useless as "random bullshit", but of anything that's more useful.
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@bjolling said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@xaade said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
So, yes, you can teach creationism as long as the context "Some Christians believe [creationism]" is qualified and preserved. Most Christians however understand the context in which the bible was written and use it as a moral compass instead of considering it a scientific fact.
Tried to FTFY ;-)
I see a mix.
There are historical truths and scientific facts, some behind and some omitted from the Bible's presentation, but God was speaking to an audience that didn't have the level of detail of knowledge that we have.
Whereas the focus is on the morality.
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@xaade said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
I think we can afford to teach major world religions.
Oh yes, that's fine, I guess it depends on what you meant with "iff you retain context".
If you put Creationism in the religion class, I don't mind as much as when you get demands to put that shit into biology class because it's "just as valid" as evolution. Then it's a waste of everyone's time and brain cells.
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@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska Your schooling must have been incredibly awful if you think there's nothing more valuable to teach than "Some people believe Hitler was actually a Japanese Hentai-robot."
Internal structure of bacteria is just as valuable. And I've had several exams on it.
I think it's immensely more valuable, but then YMMV.
Also, the point wasn't to think of something that's as useless as "random bullshit", but of anything that's more useful.If you're looking for anything more useful, modern public schools aren't a good place for that.
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Why is there Jesus in this thread.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Have you met anyone who failed biology? Because my complaint is just as much about biology. And geography. And physics. And history. And every other piece of trivia that's useless for 99% of people (the remaining 1% are free to take special education in their area of interest).
You're going to deny this and @Benjamin-Hall will call it a huge straw man, but this sounds exactly like what @Rhywden alluded to:
An attitude of "Oh no, I'll never use biology/maths/history/English/your-least-favorite-subject in my whole life, why should I learn this shit?!? WAAA"School is supposed to teach you enough general knowledge to make you a well-rounded individual. This gives you the ability to find out about your interests and dive in much deeper later in college, in the first place. Of course you could start with teaching 3rd-graders what you think is useful later in whatever metric, but that sounds pretty dystopian to be honest.
EDIT:
What I complain about is that every single of those somewhat useful subjects, is mostly filled with useless information. It's good that they teach about forces and acceleration - but what's the use for special relativity?
How is that useless trivia and what else do you want to teach? Also, I don't think that's middle school stuff, so of course in later classes you get more advanced topics.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
I hate repeating myself, but I'm absolutely sure you'll miss this detail if I don't - I'M TALKING ABOUT GENERAL EDUCATION, NOT SPECIAL EDUCATION OF SPECIALISTS WHO NEED TO BE EXPERTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE DOMAINS.
You have a very weird definition of "general education". And last time I looked, Special Relativity is not taught in school.
Granted, we have Quantum Mechanics but that one does have an impact. Because the way I teach it you'll then be less likely to fall prey to that "electro smog" shit.
And what you call "useless" others will call "interesting" or "useful". You're not the center of the world. Seems to me like you had a bad experience somewhere and now promptly think that it's the same all over the world. Talk about someone having a big ego.
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@blakeyrat said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Why is there Jesus in this thread.
Jesus is in everyone. #MeToo
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Oh, right, you're a teacher. Of course you're going to defend your own kind and will never admit there's anything wrong with the system that guarantees eternal employment of you and all your colleagues.
New movie idea: Vampire teachers.
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There's probably a manga / anime with this plot already. Or a dozen of them.
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@boomzilla said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
New movie idea: Vampire teachers.
Pretty sure that was an episode of Are You Afraid of the Dark.
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@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Rhywden The thing you quoted was making every student learn all the details. You responded with a total strawman.
Yes, because "literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo" in school. That argument itself was already a strawman but you chose to ignore that, right?
How is it a strawman? It's a fact that literally everyone is forced to know about Michelangelo, and other assorted artists. As well as what animals are native to what ecosystems around the planet, how various seas and gulfs in the world are named, and who fought on which side in the Thirty Years War 400 years ago.
I didn't learn any of that. In fact I've never heard of the Thirty Years War.
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@topspin said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
@Gąska said in Wikipedia is a bunch of hobbyists recreating the world's most bloated bureaucracy:
Have you met anyone who failed biology? Because my complaint is just as much about biology. And geography. And physics. And history. And every other piece of trivia that's useless for 99% of people (the remaining 1% are free to take special education in their area of interest).
You're going to deny this and @Benjamin-Hall will call it a huge straw man, but this sounds exactly like what @Rhywden alluded to:
An attitude of "Oh no, I'll never use biology/maths/history/English/your-least-favorite-subject in my whole life, why should I learn this shit?!? WAAA"And he would be right, because this is exactly my complaint. Except he thinks I dismiss entire subjects except the few I like - while I actually complain about every single one (except literature, maths and maybe social studies - two of which I absolutely hated), but each only in 90%, because the 10% of every subject qualifies as general knowledge useful to everybody, even if not directly. Cue admiral_p complaining about ass pulled numbers.
School is supposed to teach you enough general knowledge to make you a well-rounded individual.
And instead, what it actually does is give you highly specialized knowledge about a random matchup of various topics. You might argue it's the same thing, but it really is a bad way to go. Instead, we could go with a wider variety of subjects - say, for history classes, less dates and names, and more history of individual countries around the world, especially South Asia which I think was never brought up throughout the 9 years I've had history classes.
This gives you the ability to find out about your interests
Theoretically. In practice, more often than not, it successfully turns you away from subjects you'd otherwise love to learn more about.
and dive in much deeper later in college, in the first place.
Or we could extend the college by half a year so it teaches you all the prerequisite knowledge, and save everybody else the pain of going through that as well.
Of course you could start with teaching 3rd-graders what you think is useful later in whatever metric
3rd grade education is actually pretty good at striking balance between how much knowledge is passed and how hard/exhausting it is for pupils to go through it. It's about 5th grade that the real problems arise.
A major problem of our education system is that school doubles as nursery, so we have to fill the hours with something, whether it makes sense from educational standpoint or not.
My point isn't that we should make education more useful. We should make it less useless. By which I mean, less filled with useless facts. Once we get rid of that, we save between 30% and 70% of time (depending on subject), which might be either spend by teaching a broader range of topics, teaching real in-depth stuff for those who want to, or simply give students more time to familiarize themselves with the lower level content, reducing the cognitive load and the effort required to pass.
What I complain about is that every single of those somewhat useful subjects, is mostly filled with useless information. It's good that they teach about forces and acceleration - but what's the use for special relativity?
How is that useless trivia
How is it USEFUL trivia? This is the question that should be asked, not the other way around.
and what else do you want to teach?
Social skills. Cooking. Speechcraft and etiquette. Mechanical engineering basics and repairing household appliances. Theory of movies and movie making. Proper law classes. Just to name a few. More common practical skills, as well as a wider range of subjects without really going too deep with any of them.
Also, I don't think that's middle school stuff
Michelangelo and internal cellular structures are definitely middle class material - at least in Poland.
Flat Earth - Wikipedia
