Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Sounds like he'd be thrilled by his present counterpart's "alternative facts."
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
I use Notepad for reading text files and for jotting down quick notes.
Correction: I use Notepad for that on computers where I haven't replaced it with Metapad...
And I still only use that for reading text files and jotting down notes. For everything else, there's Notepad++.
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@boomzilla said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@jaloopa said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Fundamentally, line endings shouldn't be something users ever have to know or worry about. You press return, the cursor moves to the next line. That's it
Life is suffering.
No, life is pain.
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@jaloopa said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Fundamentally, line endings shouldn't be something users ever have to know or worry about. You press return, the cursor moves to the next line. That's it
When the world is created anew next Thursday (AKA Thursday's Creator's Update), surely this bug shall be fixed.
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@bb36e ENOREPRO
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@anotherusername VS Code.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@dcon said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
The fact that they touched it at all means
Probably means it was a summer intern's project?
They should sack the intern if it took him more than a couple afternoons.
Nah. I'd be surprised if it didn't take at least 3 months for this intern to review all other references to Notepad in order to verify that this update would not break backwards compatibility.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
I use Notepad for reading text files and for jotting down quick notes.
Correction: I use Notepad for that on computers where I haven't replaced it with Metapad...
And I still only use that for reading text files and jotting down notes. For everything else, there's Notepad++.
It looks like Metapad has a bunch of features based on vim that Windows users wouldn't ever think to try to use (e.g. goto line and column?).
I prefer Notepad2 (with the toolbar disabled) for basic text and notes because it starts up almost instantly (like Notepad) and it doesn't try to do anything but text editing and display (i.e. no web file rendering, in-text URL hyperlinkifying, source file compilation, etc.). The one thing I wish it did was multi-line typing (like SQL Server's text editor), but that's a nice-to-have for me, not a critical need.
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@djls45 said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
It looks like Metapad has a bunch of features based on vim that Windows users wouldn't ever think to try to use (e.g. goto line and column?).
Windows Notepad also has the "Go to line" option, but it doesn't work unless you turn off word wrap. Metapad lets you go to a line even with word wrap on, and if you don't want to have the offset option, you can turn on the "Hide go to offset" option in advanced settings:
Before After It does have a bunch of options that I don't use, but it's super lightweight and fast. Extra options don't bother me.
it doesn't try to do anything but text editing and display (i.e. no web file rendering, in-text URL hyperlinkifying, source file compilation, etc.)
I turned off the "show hyperlinks" option. Really about the only extra features that I do use are smart selection (prevents selecting the following space character when selecting a whole word), quick exit (press Esc to exit), and "hide scrollbars when possible". Occasionally it's nice to quickly toggle from a fixed-width font (Consolas) to a variable-width font. And it has "smart home" which is on by default (pressing Home on an indented line toggles the cursor between the beginning of the text on the line and the beginning of the line).
There's a hidden feature that I've found: pressing Ctrl+Shift+' toggles "smart quote" replacement. As far as I can tell, it doesn't have an option anywhere in the menus or settings.
@djls45 said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
The one thing I wish it did was multi-line typing (like SQL Server's text editor)
I'd never even heard of that before, but apparently Notepad++ supports it. I knew that Notepad++ allowed select/copy/paste of columns of text, but I'd never even considered wanting to type on multiple lines at once. That'll probably come in handy sometime.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@magus Are you saying [...]:
- All OSes should use \r\n file endings like Windows does, because that's the only correct one
[...]
Because [...] that is bullshit.
Exactly. The only correct line enders are Unicode's Paragraph Separator (PS = 202916) and Line Separator (LS = 202816).
- All OSes should use \r\n file endings like Windows does, because that's the only correct one
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
I'd never even heard of that before, but apparently Notepad++ supports it. I knew that Notepad++ allowed select/copy/paste of columns of text, but I'd never even considered wanting to type on multiple lines at once. That'll probably come in handy sometime.
First time I've seen that was in Sublime Text, it's pretty cool the rare times you need it. Sublime also lived up to it's name but because of lack of development most people probably moved on to it's open source clones by now.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
First time I've seen that was in Sublime Text, it's pretty cool the rare times you need it.
UlatraEdit had it at least in 1999
https://www.ultraedit.com/support/tutorials-power-tips/ultraedit/column-mode.html
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@mrl said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@jaloopa said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Why isn't there "Check out Windows style, commit as-is"?
Because this is the only sensible option. And this is git we're talking about.
You want it to convert your files to CRLF line endings and then tell you that every single file in your repository has changed?
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@jaloopa said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
This was one of the screens you have to go through when installing Git for Windows
I know. I meant that you have to go the extra distance of manually selecting them, as opposed to just pressing Next and accepting the sensible default option.
I'm saying the "as is" should be whatever the repo you checked out from was set to. If that's LF then convert to CRLF for editing then have checkins go back to LF. If it's CRLF then nothing gets converted.
Probably .
Fundamentally, line endings shouldn't be something users ever have to know or worry about. You press return, the cursor moves to the next line. That's it
Why stop there? I would like it if I could press any button on my keyboard and the same symbol I see was what everyone else sees too. Unfortunately this industry is built upon many historical decisions that turned out to be not quite entirely great in hindsight.
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@gurth said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Hell, if we're talking about ways that Notepad is hostile
Notepad hostile? What other text editor do you know that will automatically add the time and date to the end of the file when you open it, if you know the magic word?
... ? Huh?
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@tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@gurth said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Hell, if we're talking about ways that Notepad is hostile
Notepad hostile? What other text editor do you know that will automatically add the time and date to the end of the file when you open it, if you know the magic word?
... ? Huh?
First line of the file should be
.LOG
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@ben_lubar said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@gurth said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Hell, if we're talking about ways that Notepad is hostile
Notepad hostile? What other text editor do you know that will automatically add the time and date to the end of the file when you open it, if you know the magic word?
... ? Huh?
First line of the file should be
.LOG
... Wat.
Is this in the same vein as Excell's "This is a SYLK file because it starts with
ID,
" ?
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@tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
... ? Huh?
It’s a fairly new feature, I admit.
(Doubleclick)
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@ben_lubar said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@mrl said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@jaloopa said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Why isn't there "Check out Windows style, commit as-is"?
Because this is the only sensible option. And this is git we're talking about.
You want it to convert your files to CRLF line endings and then tell you that every single file in your repository has changed?
What @Jaloopa said.
Also, it already says that files changed, when there are no changes.
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@gurth TIL.
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Sublime also lived up to it's name but because of perceived lack of development most people probably moved on to it's open source clones by now.
Too bad for them, as it's still the best and still being actively developed. There was an update a few days ago.
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@hungrier Yeah, and it's immensely powerful at ~10MB. Then I look at Atom, it's 150MB and written in JS / Electron, makes me think "but why?!"
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@topspin said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@hungrier Yeah, and it's immensely powerful at ~10MB. Then I look at Atom, it's 150MB and written in JS / Electron, makes me think "but why?!"
$ du -hL /usr/bin/vim 2.6M /usr/bin/vim
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So my question is answered. This is an update to the common edit control and will benefit other applications using multiline edit as well.
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@ben_lubar You have to at least include the size of your browser for googling
how to exit vim
.
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@djls45 said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@dcon said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
The fact that they touched it at all means
Probably means it was a summer intern's project?
They should sack the intern if it took him more than a couple afternoons.
Nah. I'd be surprised if it didn't take at least 3 months for this intern to review all other references to Notepad in order to verify that this update would not break backwards compatibility.
The intern doesn't care about that. That's their mentor's job!
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@ben_lubar said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
You want it to convert your files to CRLF line endings and then tell you that every single file in your repository has changed?
Why would it lie like that? They haven't changed.
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@gurth Wow, how discoverable.
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@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@gurth Wow, how discoverable.
Admittedly, that’s from the User’s Guide for Windows 3.0 because I don’t have one for Windows 2.1, but chances are it would say much the same thing.
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@gurth said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@anotherusername said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@gurth Wow, how discoverable.
Admittedly, that’s from the User’s Guide for Windows 3.0 because I don’t have one for Windows 2.1, but chances are it would say much the same thing.
"left margin in the first line"? So it won't work if I right or center-align-- oh wait, you can't do that in Notepad...
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@tsaukpaetra I think they were trying to say “Don’t put any spaces or tabs in front of it.”
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@mikehurley said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
One exception is it's probably not worth supporting old Mac \r line endings. But then again, it's not that hard to do so.
I think that's the funniest thing here. Unix had \n line endings, MS came by and said... why don't we add \r for good measure? Otherwise, the printer may forget to return the carriage to the beginning of the line.
Apples come along and says "Screw you guys, we want to be different. Even though we're just some pretty GUI on top of debian, we're going to use \r. Screw any printers that don't understand that we want a line feed too. We'll make our own printers and sell them for lots of $"
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@dangeruss mac classic used
\r
. Mac os x is bsd-based and uses\n
.
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@dangeruss said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
I think that's the funniest thing here. Unix had \n line endings,
Teletypes used CRLF because they literally were just electronic typewriters with no processors on them, and so each character mapped directly to one action. (Carriage return then line feed.)
First-generation OSes used CRLF because they talked to teletypes.
Unix "saved a few bytes" but adopting just LF. By the time it came around, video terminals and more advanced printers appeared which would be programmed to do the right thing when they saw a LF.
Macintosh "saved a few bytes" by adopting just CR. Macintosh was never designed to be hooked to any printers other than the LaserWriter, which was PostScript.
DOS kept the status quo.
At the time there was zero interest in computers to talking to other computers. Unix only talked to hardware made for Unix. OS/360 only talked to hardware made for OS/360. Macintosh only talked to hardware made for Macintosh, etc. Point is: none of this shit mattered until the Internet became a "thing" in the 90s.
(I mean it still doesn't matter. But.)
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
First-generation OSes used CRLF because they talked to teletypes.
So what you're telling us is that Microsoft Windows is stuck in the 1960s?
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@dangeruss said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@mikehurley said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
One exception is it's probably not worth supporting old Mac \r line endings. But then again, it's not that hard to do so.
I think that's the funniest thing here. Unix had \n line endings, MS came by and said... why don't we add \r for good measure? Otherwise, the printer may forget to return the carriage to the beginning of the line.
Apples come along and says "Screw you guys, we want to be different. Even though we're just some pretty GUI on top of debian, we're going to use \r. Screw any printers that don't understand that we want a line feed too. We'll make our own printers and sell them for lots of $"
I recently learned that you can use
\r
to return the cursor to the front of the line, same line, when doing a C++ console application. I used it to overwrite a line to update a text-based progress bar without adding lines to the output. Nifty. (At least on Windows. Who knows what other OS's do...)
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@mott555 said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@dangeruss said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@mikehurley said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
One exception is it's probably not worth supporting old Mac \r line endings. But then again, it's not that hard to do so.
I think that's the funniest thing here. Unix had \n line endings, MS came by and said... why don't we add \r for good measure? Otherwise, the printer may forget to return the carriage to the beginning of the line.
Apples come along and says "Screw you guys, we want to be different. Even though we're just some pretty GUI on top of debian, we're going to use \r. Screw any printers that don't understand that we want a line feed too. We'll make our own printers and sell them for lots of $"
I recently learned that you can use
\r
to return the cursor to the front of the line, same line, when doing a C++ console application. I used it to overwrite a line to update a text-based progress bar without adding lines to the output. Nifty. (At least on Windows. Who knows what other OS's do...)I wrote a program that talked through the serial port to terminal that would also dictate the location of the cursor. This was for on-board configuration of the robot in flight so we wouldn't need to re-flash the damn thing just to adjust the autonomous mode instructions, and also provide some diagnostics while operating in normal mode.
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@dangeruss said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@mikehurley said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
One exception is it's probably not worth supporting old Mac \r line endings. But then again, it's not that hard to do so.
I think that's the funniest thing here. Unix had \n line endings, MS came by and said... why don't we add \r for good measure? Otherwise, the printer may forget to return the carriage to the beginning of the line.
Apples come along and says "Screw you guys, we want to be different. Even though we're just some pretty GUI on top of debian, we're going to use \r. Screw any printers that don't understand that we want a line feed too. We'll make our own printers and sell them for lots of $"
Btw,
Objective-CCocoa also recommand the use of NSParagraphSeparatorCharacter (U+2028) as line seperator. I wonder how well it works on other systems.
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@cheong said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
recommand
My new favorite word
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
If you don't like Notepad, guess what? Don't use it!
I don't. Not on purpose, anyway. Anything else you want to get off your chest? Just let it out, it's okay.
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@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Anything else you want to get off your chest?
I don't have any real-world sexual experience!
...
Erm, that's what you meant, right?
Filed under: Not comedic relief
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@mott555 said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
At least on Windows.
That
\r
trick works on Unix too. It's the cheapest way of making a console application that does trickery like progress bars.
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@cheong said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Btw,
Objective-CCocoa also recommand the use of NSParagraphSeparatorCharacter (U+2028) as line seperator.Yet another piece of stupid from the people who brought us Xcode…
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@tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Anything else you want to get off your chest?
I don't have any real-world sexual experience!
...
Erm, that's what you meant, right?
Filed under: Not comedic relief
No but I'll take it
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@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Anything else you want to get off your chest?
I don't have any real-world sexual experience!
...
Erm, that's what you meant, right?
Filed under: Not comedic relief
No but I'll take it
TMI folks, get a room, jeez...
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@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Anything else you want to get off your chest?
I don't have any real-world sexual experience!
...
Erm, that's what you meant, right?
Filed under: Not comedic relief
No but I'll take it
most women won't
sorry
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@blakeyrat said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
First-generation OSes used CRLF because they talked to teletypes.
Even CDC in the late 60s had already abstracted the display code to work with CRTs and TTYs.
Unix "saved a few bytes" but adopting just LF. By the time it came around, video terminals and more advanced printers appeared which would be programmed to do the right thing when they saw a LF.
That wasn't why Unix could get away with it though; even today you can get the dumbest TTY to work as a terminal. The reason was also a terminal abstraction (which soon grew into Termcap).
At the time there was zero interest in computers to talking to other computers.
man arpanet
Point is: none of this shit mattered until the Internet became a "thing" in the 90s.
Incredible as it sounds: the internet was a thing before Al Gore.
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@pie_flavor said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@tsaukpaetra said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
@akko said in Microsoft Adds Proper Support for Line Breaks in Notepad:
Anything else you want to get off your chest?
I don't have any real-world sexual experience!
...
Erm, that's what you meant, right?
Filed under: Not comedic relief
No but I'll take it
most women won't
sorryI'm not a woman though
not sorry
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@tsaukpaetra Don't they say: there's an app for that!