Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!)
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@boomzilla ahhhh, the good ol' days back before Lindsay Lohan discovered cocaine.
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@boomzilla meh. That version did not have 19 year old Lindsay Lohan.
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
it may have been a case of "Two out of three systems says there is nothing there, one system reports something strange, so third system is probably mistaken, ignore and carry on."
This must be a textbook definition of "seriously fucked up". One can only make an assumption that one of three systems is mistaken for reporting differently only if the other two are identical to it. This is the same as ignoring an oncoming train when you can only hear it, because you cannot see, touch, smell, or taste it.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
it may have been a case of "Two out of three systems says there is nothing there, one system reports something strange, so third system is probably mistaken, ignore and carry on."
This must be a textbook definition of "seriously fucked up". One can only make an assumption that one of three systems is mistaken for reporting differently only if the other two are identical to it. This is the same as ignoring an oncoming train when you can only hear it, because you cannot see, touch, smell, or taste it.
Why, yes it is. I would not deem it an impossible scenario though. Something caused the autonomous car to not see the pedestrian. Though, being a software muppet, it may just as well have been that the routine for reacting to unexpected obstacles just hung for a few seconds for no apparent reason.
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@carnage If there was no serious ignorance involved, I expect it could be like that: most of the time the woman was on the opposite lane, so no problem and no reason for slowing down. When she moved in the car's way and became an obstacle in its way, it was too late.
(But god damn it to fucking hell, she wasn't even looking at the oncoming traffic, people are fucking stupid.)
Another thing of interest: isn't 35 mph tad too fast for a built-up area? These 5 mph are what often makes a difference between the hospital and the morgue.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@carnage If there was no serious ignorance involved, I expect it could be like that: most of the time the woman was on the opposite lane, so no problem and no reason for slowing down. When she moved in the car's way and became an obstacle in its way, it was too late.
(But god damn it to fucking hell, she wasn't even looking at the oncoming traffic, people are fucking stupid.)
Another thing of interest: isn't 35 mph tad too fast for a built-up area? These 5 mph are what often makes a difference between the hospital and the morgue.
Well, calculating future collisions from velocity vectors should be rather trivial and something that I expect autonomous vehicles do very well, so if the car saw her moving across the road it should have been able to calculate that a collision was going to happen.
Though, I recently saw video of a bunch of fucktards jumping out in front of (and into the sides of) autonomous vehicles in cali to protest their existance, so I do not entirely rule out that she was immobile in the middle of the road, saw an autonomous vehicle approaching and got int he way of it to protest... But her general appearance in the video suggests that wasn't the case.
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There is some speculation that the LIDAR was turned off for testing. The post also mentions that there likely were more cameras, other than the one shown in the video, and especially ones with different exposure levels and/or HDR.
It goes though a list of various components, and briefly mentions each one of them. (Radar is apparently bad in this configuration.)
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@cvi said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
There is some speculation that the LIDAR was turned off for testing.
The Chernobyl routine. "Let's turn off safeties and see if something bad can happen."
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@cvi said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
There is some speculation that the LIDAR was turned off for testing. The post also mentions that there likely were more cameras, other than the one shown in the video, and especially ones with different exposure levels and/or HDR.
It goes though a list of various components, and briefly mentions each one of them. (Radar is apparently bad in this configuration.)
If they really were doing tests witht he LIDAR turned off to test how the vehicle worked in that situation, I'd say that the test failed resoundly. Turning off the least error prone scanner is a really idiotic test to do on public roads with a prototype vehicle.
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
If they really were doing tests witht he LIDAR turned off to test how the vehicle worked in that situation, I'd say that the test failed resoundly. Turning off the least error prone scanner is a really idiotic test to do on public roads with a prototype vehicle.
Yeah. The linked post mentions this, saying that the LIDAR should have been turned on as a fail-safe, at the very least. (At this point, I also want to point out again that the LIDAR thing is speculation on part of that post, so who knows if that was actually the case.)
It also talks about a long-range LIDAR system that Über might not have had. Additionally, there are thermal cameras that would have caught the pedestrian with a very high likelihood. But apparently those are expensive, so everybody is keen on avoiding them. Still, one would think that they'd be useful in a prototype, as a sort of secondary safety system to catch when the primary prototype system fails (like here).
Meh. I won't shed any tears if Über has to get out of the self-driving car thing. It'd be a pity if this sets back other more ... "serious" teams, though.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Another thing of interest: isn't 35 mph tad too fast for a built-up area? These 5 mph are what often makes a difference between the hospital and the morgue.
Every state is different, but in my state most speed limits are set prima facie. They occasionally do road speed surveys, discard the top few percent of results as speeders and establish the speed limit as what most people drive on that road.
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And now we find out that Uber has been testing their autonomous cars in Canada, too!
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Also, make them send two people for field testing, so that the bloke at the wheel minds the road and the bloke in the passenger seat minds the instruments.
Oh wait, here's an idea too: Secondary brakes. We have them for drivers ed, they should be in these cars.
(though of course it can conflict with the corrective action a driver is taking (e.g. acceleration)
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@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@luhmann said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
You don't have lane control do you? If you need to change direction suddenly you do so. You will feel a tremble in the steering wheel for a second like you drive over an auditive lane marking.
That is super annoying. I turned that off also. If you did not signal before a lane change it would buzz the seat and push back on the steering wheel. Which is fine and all, but I tend to use common sense on whether or not I signal when changing lanes. If there is literally no one around me for several hundred yards in each direction then I do not worry about it.
buzz
Fuck off driver assists.
Or you could just make it a habit and do it every time
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Though, being a software muppet, it may just as well have been that the routine for reacting to unexpected obstacles just hung for a few seconds for no apparent reason.
Real-time software doesn't work like that. It's not like Windows Update or McAfee is suddenly going to need 99% of its CPU. There is literally nothing else it's supposed to be doing.
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@anotherusername said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Though, being a software muppet, it may just as well have been that the routine for reacting to unexpected obstacles just hung for a few seconds for no apparent reason.
Real-time software doesn't work like that. It's not like Windows Update or McAfee is suddenly going to need 99% of its CPU. There is literally nothing else it's supposed to be doing.
It's also a prototype. I'd fully expect prototypes to have bugs that could cause shit like that.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
35 mph
I've seen multiple news sources saying that was the speed limit. It's fake news. It's especially weird since I've also seen news sources that got it right, very early in the news coverage of the accident. So somewhere along the lines, the false notion that there was a 35 MPH speed limit popped up.
It'd be awfully nice if journalists actually did their homework before publishing shit that isn't true; it's not like they can't just go on Google Maps and check...
The accident occurred right about where the road bends to the right.
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@anotherusername Then it's a purely Darwin award case, no matter how badly the robocar's systems fucked up.
- Crossing outside crosswalk? Check.
- Crossing a road with over 30 mph limit outside the crosswalk? Check
- Crossing not directly under the lights to be more visible? Check
- Wearing dark clothes during the nighttime? Check
- Having no damn reflectors either on the bicycle or herself? Check
- Not even facing oncoming traffic? Check! This is the basic road crossing skill little kids are being taught at 3-4 years of age.
Even given the robocar should be way better at detecting this kind of stuff, she literally went over her head in making sure she filled every single criterium of the human roadkill recipe.
This is starting to look like a story where literally every character is a repulsive disgusting fuck. Evil corporations put "xhe" fatsos in the robocars with firmware full of WTFs written by overconfident smoothie-guzzling hipsters and make them run over stupid people. You cannot make that shit up.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Evil corporations put "xhe" fatsos in the robocars with firmware full of WTFs written by overconfident smoothie-guzzling hipsters
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@bb36e said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Evil corporations put "xhe" fatsos in the robocars with firmware full of WTFs written by overconfident smoothie-guzzling hipsters
Larf
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@anotherusername said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
It'd be awfully nice if journalists actually did their homework before publishing shit that isn't true
Good luck with that.
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@cvi said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
LIDAR
So it'd be on on a properly tested car in production, right?
something something thermal camera but expensive
My phone has a thermal camera. A self driving car costs much more, making a thermal camera significantly less of the overall cost.
But hey,bypassing a $300 safety feature on a $30k+ device because "profits above all else" when dealing with experimental tech in public spaces. A+
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@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
If you did not signal before a lane change it would buzz the seat and push back on the steering wheel.
Does it have cameras and sensors so it can tell the difference between changing lanes, and, say turning the wheel to follow a bend in the road?
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@zemm said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
If you did not signal before a lane change it would buzz the seat and push back on the steering wheel.
Does it have cameras and sensors so it can tell the difference between changing lanes, and, say turning the wheel to follow a bend in the road?
Lane departure warning system?
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@zemm said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
If you did not signal before a lane change it would buzz the seat and push back on the steering wheel.
Does it have cameras and sensors so it can tell the difference between changing lanes, and, say turning the wheel to follow a bend in the road?
Yes. It buzzed anytime you got towards lane markers without signalling.
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@lorne-kates said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
So it'd be on on a properly tested car in production, right?
Well. I imagine the purpose of testing the car without LIDAR is to see whether it's possible to get rid of it in lieu of much cheaper convntional cameras. LIDAR is bulky and also not cheap.
[thermal camera on phone]
Out of curiosity - do you have any info on it? (I guess it's external?) What do you use it for? I was looking at one some time back, mostly for fun, but couldn't quite justify the expense (I don't really have a "serious" use for it...)
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@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@pie_flavor said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
This is the first ever car crash death from a self-driving car, after they've been on the road for a while.
But it isn't. Tesla had one.
As I understand it though, they're different. The Uber accident was (I think) a fully autonomous vehicle with a human back-up. The Tesla was an assisted-driving system whose human driver behaving as if it were fully autonomous and ignored several warnings to take control.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
I've been had by Google Maps several times when they navigated me to make a U-turn exactly where it was forbidden
I remember a time I was directed to turn left onto a certain street. Unless I was driving a rather larger bulldozer capable of taking out the reinforced concrete barrier in the middle of the divided road I would have been turning from, that wasn't gonna happen.
That was quite a few years ago, though; they seem to have gotten much better at that sort of thing recently. Similar situation: I need to turn left where it's not possible. I had been in the habit of going to the next light, which happens to be across a freeway overpass, and making a U-turn. For some reason, I looked at directions one day, and it suggested a short-cut I'd never thought of, getting on the freeway at the cloverleaf interchange and immediately exiting onto the surface street in the other direction. This is shorter and almost always quicker, even during the morning commute when the freeway onramp is metered.
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@carnage said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Human eyes have far better range than most cameras in this area, and even human eyes are pretty shit at being inside a lit area and seeing anything outside if it is significantly darker.
Discussion on this topic — in general; not related to this crash— the first answer goes into a lot of detail:
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I was wrong earlier, there have been more fatalities than I had previously stated from vehicles self-driving. There was also one in China:
Tesla plows in to streetsweeper without ever applying brakes or attempting to swerve.
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@blakeyrat said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@lorne-kates said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Oh right that data doesn't exist. Because the tech is still being worked on and improved and that data is still being gathered.
Not to mention they only test these cars in places like, say, Arizona which have the easiest driving conditions in the fucking world.
You get that robot car to successful complete a trip in a Detroit blizzard and I'll be impressed.
You haven't seen the Waymo cars on 405? I've seen them in Kirkland and Bellevue a few times. These cars are slowly showing up more.
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@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
I was wrong earlier, there have been more fatalities than I had previously stated from vehicles self-driving. There was also one in China:
Musk is technically correct because nobody knows whether that car was on auto-pilot or not. The driver isn't talking (natch) and the computer that keeps track was destroyed in the crash.
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@blakeyrat said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@polygeekery said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
I was wrong earlier, there have been more fatalities than I had previously stated from vehicles self-driving. There was also one in China:
Musk is technically correct because nobody knows whether that car was on auto-pilot or not. The driver isn't talking (natch) and the computer that keeps track was destroyed in the crash.
Hmmmmmm, don't they phone home with telemetry?
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@polygeekery They do but not in real-time, and the computer was destroyed before it had a chance to phone home apparently.
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@blakeyrat there is a current ruckus because the data is stored in a proprietary format that only Tesla can decipher. Was it actually destroyed? Or was it "destroyed"?
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@polygeekery The car was pretty smashed up. I don't fucking know.
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@polygeekery this was the first one I remember hearing about:
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@anotherusername that's the one I remembered earlier. There was also (probably) the one in China and I think I read about one in Europe.
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Another case of nobody being able to predict this.
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@dragoon fucking programmers
Bloodthirsty maniacs
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The sensitivity gauge, I guess, looks like this
"Ignore objects the size of ___ and less:- a cigarette butt
- a butterfly
- a piece of paper
- a bag
- a hedgehog
- a cat
- a dog
- a large dog
- a human
(*) a human with a bicycle - a cow
- a bus
- a tank
- a locomotive
- a motherfucking brick wall"
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
fucking programmers
Bloodthirsty maniacs
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@dragoon
As punishment for their error, the programmers will be made to cross the Uber test track 3 times during live testing.
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@dragoon That seems like the reason to still have test drivers in the vehicle, to take over when the sensor settings are bad. It is a test, pretty much exactly because of stuff like this.
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@dcon said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
@polygeekery There's more to signs than speed limits. Also, good luck keeping the maps updated.
I've been had by Google Maps several times when they navigated me to make a U-turn exactly where it was forbidden; there are numerous stories about GPS and maps software leading to closed roads.
some people won't ever update because they can't be bothered, or because they have a Windows Update PTSD, or what else shit reason. Also, there are temporary obstacles, maintenance works etc. Restrictions by car type.
Coming home last Sunday, Google tried taking me across a bridge. It was under (re)construction. Nice solid barricades blocking it.
Did you report it? Google doesn't read minds as well for driving, it could have just assumed you were being a dumb meatbag and ignoring the carefully planned route it decided to bless you with.
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@wft said in Uber, the sociopathic company full of psychopaths, now with murder! (Because regulations aren't "Disruptive" enough!):
Also, I prefer to be on the same road as robotrucks which actually obey speed limits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHseQ3bXU8c
They're such a joy to be around...