FlightAware starts using :disco: :horse: Sadness ensues
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@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
We're talking about the context of a FORUM on a WEB SITE. JavaScript is the only feasible solution, unless you want to make a horrendous Flash or Java Applet beast.
Sure.
But that doesn't change the face that you made up words and put them in my mouth.
Don't do that. It pisses me off. It would piss you off if I did it to you.
@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Did you actually approach them with your complaints?
Yup.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
We're talking about the context of a FORUM on a WEB SITE. JavaScript is the only feasible solution, unless you want to make a horrendous Flash or Java Applet beast.
Sure.
But that doesn't change the face that you made up words and put them in my mouth.
Don't do that. It pisses me off. It would piss you off if I did it to you.
What the fuck, man? When we're in the context of improving forum software, and you say WYSIWYG was great in 2008, what else should one assume than using WYSIWYG in a forum context, a.k.a. using Javascript? That's not putting words in your mouth, that's simply reading between the lines. Because assuming anything besides that in a forum context is fucking idiotic.
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@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Because assuming anything besides that in a forum context is fucking idiotic.
Flash and Silverlight are/used to be things, you know.
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@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
We're talking about the context of a FORUM on a WEB SITE. JavaScript is the only feasible solution, unless you want to make a horrendous Flash or Java Applet beast.
There is another way: propose a spec for a native WYSIWYG form element, have browser makers implement it, and then deal with it on the server side.
contenteditable
is already pretty close.
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Because assuming anything besides that in a forum context is fucking idiotic.
Flash and Silverlight are/used to be things, you know.
Yes, and Iike I said in a prior post, using a plugin as your WYSIWYG editor does not make a "good" WYSIWYG editor, but a bulky and performance hogging asswipe of an editor, which conflicts with the statement that 2008 had good WYSIWYG editors.
@lb_ said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
There is another way: propose a spec for a native WYSIWYG form element, have browser makers implement it, and then deal with it on the server side. contenteditable is already pretty close.
...which wasn't available in the most popular browser in 2008.
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Flash and Silverlight are/used to be things, you know.
Damnit, trigger warning that shit.
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@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
what else should one assume
You shouldn't assume anything, or, if you do, at least make it clear that you are making an assumption instead of putting words into my mouth. If you have started the statement with something like, "I'm assuming you mean X..." I might have corrected you but I wouldn't have called you a lying idiot.
For the record, I did not intend to type "JavaScript" in the first place. Car analogy, I say:
"Power windows have been standard on cars for years, why don't 18 wheeler cabs have them?"
What I mean by that is simply that power windows are a perfected technology, just like WYSIWYG is. (And was, back in the 80s even.) The fact that JavaScript is really really shitty doesn't change the fact that WYSIWYG is a perfected technology, and it's downright shameful that it's not being used in forums like this one where the technology would be a perfect fit. If you responded with:
"Truck cabs had some twenty years ago, but they broke a lot so they don't now."
You'd be completely missing the point. And lo and behold, that's exactly what happened. Except without cars. Then I called you on it, now you're defending your lack of reading ability, and finally we arrive here.
This has been another episode of Blakeyrat Teaches 4th Grade Reading Comprehension Because He Talks To Morons.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@the_quiet_one said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
what else should one assume
You shouldn't assume anything, or, if you do, at least make it clear that you are making an assumption instead of putting words into my mouth. If you have started the statement with something like, "I'm assuming you mean X..." I might have corrected you but I wouldn't have called you a lying idiot.
For the record, I did not intend to type "JavaScript" in the first place. Car analogy, I say:
"Power windows have been standard on cars for years, why don't 18 wheeler cabs have them?"
What I mean by that is simply that power windows are a perfected technology, just like WYSIWYG is.
WYSIWYG for HTML hasn't been perfected in 2008. Just try to convert a Word 2007 document to HTML and see how it looks in all contemporary browsers. We're talking about WYSIWYG in the context of HTML, after all. Yes, you can have WYSIWYG work for printing documents. That's child's play compared to having WYSIWYG work for the complete clusterfuck that is HTML, especially as it was done in 2008.
So, to use your car analogy again, it's more going to a thread about towing a modular home and you saying, "50MPG vehicles have been around since 2008, so why don't we have them when towing module homes?" and someone points out that "50MPG was never feasible for 18 wheelers" and you go blakeyshit on us saying, "WHY DID YOU ASSUME I WAS TALKING ABOUT 18 WHEELERS? LEARN TO READ AT A 4TH GRADE LEVEL MORON!"
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@blakeyrat you didn't. I was just heading off the major alternative off at the pass.
You said that Markdown was shit. No disagreement. But in the forum world there are two alternatives, bbcode or HTML, both of which suck donkey balls to use on mobile.
And your panacea solution of WYSIWYG is no solution at all. Source: I spent large parts of the last two years writing extensions for CKEditor and TinyMCE and now write extensions for Atto, a WYSIWYG editor specifically written because Moodle decided TinyMCE was too crap.
AND they suck balls even worse on mobile than typing HTML.
As for your inability to understand the thing about Fark, it doesn't matter how usable or not it is if people can't even set it up in the first place. Source: most of a decade working with forum admins, most of whom couldn't figure out how to even set up m.domain.com. But sure, do that (which has various problems in its own right) and have fewer forums, which in your little world is probably better.
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@arantor If I have to push a button outside the text area what happens to my mobile keyboard
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@arantor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
it doesn't matter how usable or not it is if people can't even set it up in the first place
QFFT
I'd like to put that on a billboard in huge letters outside the office of a very large number of software developers.
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@dkf said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
I'd like to put that on a billboard in huge letters outside the office of a very large number of software developers.
Not to name names*cough*oracle*cough*.
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@arantor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
As for your inability to understand the thing about Fark, it doesn't matter how usable or not it is if people can't even set it up in the first place. Source: most of a decade working with forum admins, most of whom couldn't figure out how to even set up m.domain.com.
You're trying to tell me people who write web forums aren't good at usability.
While we're both using NodeBB.
Well duh.
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@blakeyrat no, I'm telling you that it doesn't matter how usable or not usable it is, if you make that setup mandatory as you're insisting, the majority of users couldn't even deploy a fucking forum in the first place. But if it helps you sleep at night, pretend I argued with what you thought I said.
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@arantor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@blakeyrat no, I'm telling you that it doesn't matter how usable or not usable it is, if you make that setup mandatory as you're insisting, the majority of users couldn't even deploy a fucking forum in the first place.
That just means the usability of their setup process is shitty.
Why do you think when I say "usability" I mean only "for end users?" Usability is important for everybody at every stage.
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@blakeyrat no, it means that setting up shit like DNS is actually hard and yet still completely out of the control of people like NodeBB, whilst massively inflating their support costs for minimal actual benefit.
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@arantor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@blakeyrat no, it means that setting up shit like DNS is actually hard and yet still completely out of the control of people like NodeBB, whilst massively inflating their support costs for minimal actual benefit.
Everything relating to the internet is hard. That's because it's run by people who hate their users.
Still no excuse.
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@blakeyrat wait, what? What kind of fucked up logic is that?
"Yes, we'll make our product harder to set up for everyone, so that some percentage of the users can theoretically get a better experience, afterwards. And in so doing we'll inflate our support costs, meaning that we spend less time fixing bugs and more time supporting this pain in the arse edge case, or we charge our paying users more."
I'm not disputing that DNS is arbitrarily hard to use, and it's run by people who indeed hate their users.
In this world we have to make use of what finite resources we have - and as much as it sucks, the choice made by the NodeBB wasn't entirely the worst choice they could have made, but since blakeyrat is all butt hurt that 'they didn't try harder' (of course not, they have finite resources and the alternatives make things worse, not better, for the actual majority of people) I guess we should just shut it all down and go home.
Or you could stop fucking whining about it because unfortunately there isn't a better solution right now, not one that can be generally applied to an off the shelf platform.
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@arantor Well to give just a quick idea, if they can't make setting up DNS easy, they could provide an easy-to-use service where someone does it for the consumer.
@arantor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
In this world we have to make use of what finite resources we have - and as much as it sucks, the choice made by the NodeBB wasn't entirely the worst choice they could have made, but since blakeyrat is all butt hurt that 'they didn't try harder' (of course not, they have finite resources and the alternatives make things worse, not better, for the actual majority of people) I guess we should just shut it all down and go home.
Of course they have finite resources, but they're spending them on shitty ass instead of the parts of the product that really need genuine improvement. And I've always said that one of the reason open source products are so shitty is they all lack manpower, that's not new.
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@blakeyrat what good is making 'the product' better if far fewer people can actually use it by necessarily making installation much harder to get going? AND THAT PART IS A THING NODEBB COULDN'T MAKE EASIER BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN THEIR CONTROL.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Well to give just a quick idea, if they can't make setting up DNS easy, they could provide an easy-to-use service where someone does it for the consumer.
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@blakeyrat Are you really suggesting the NodeBB devs spend time and resources on a feature to support the 280 million different ways to set up a DNS?
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Well to give just a quick idea, if they can't make setting up DNS easy, they could provide an easy-to-use service where someone does it for the consumer.
HOW? HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT EVEN WORK? IF THEY CAN'T SET UP DNS, HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GET THEM TO CHANGE NAMESERVERS?
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Are you really suggesting the NodeBB devs spend time and resources on a feature to support the 280 million different ways to set up a DNS?
I'm suggesting that if a problem exists, you iterate to find good solutions to the problem. And that you don't only consider solutions that can be implemented in code.
That is all.
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@blakeyrat how the fuck do you iterate towards a solution when you literally have no control over the parts that are the problem?
Fuck this place, and fuck you.
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Are you really suggesting the NodeBB devs spend time and resources on a feature to support the 280 million different ways to set up a DNS?
I'm suggesting that if a problem exists, you iterate to find good solutions to the problem. And that you don't only consider solutions that can be implemented in code.
That is all.
That's assuming there's even a solution in the first place.
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
That's assuming there's even a solution in the first place.
Well there's "improvement" even if there's no "solution".
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
That's assuming there's even a solution in the first place.
Well there's "improvement" even if there's no "solution".
Maybe, but it's not guaranteed there's improvement to be had. Besides, no-one has infinite resources. Wouldn't it be better for the NodeBB devs to focus more on the everyday issues like the composer, the preview pane, mobile vs desktop, and the like? Setting up the DNS is a one-off task done by a select few: why would it take priority over the stuff thousands of users do every day?
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Wouldn't it be better for the NodeBB devs to focus more on the everyday issues like the composer, the preview pane, mobile vs desktop, and the like?
Yes.
The only reason we're talking about DNS shit is because Arantor seems to think that's the only way to get Fark-like device detection working (which I'm a little dubious about, but whatever.) So it is kind of "mobile vs. desktop".
But it is true that NodeBB has an overwhelming amount of problems, mostly due to their own bad decisions while writing this turd. Which is why, in another major theme to my complaining, it's way better to do your research up-front before you write the code than to just write code all day without ever stopping to think.
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@arantor
Though ${WEBAPPDEVELOPER} could easily remove the DNS reliance by changing their request router (a strictly code change) to handle URLs like...
https://what.thedailywtf.com/d/topic/23675/flightaware-starts-using-disco-horse-sadness-ensues/221
- desktop view
https://what.thedailywtf.com/m/topic/23675/flightaware-starts-using-disco-horse-sadness-ensues/221
- mobile viewOr, even, gasp, use a cookie that gets sent on every request that contains whether you want a mobile or desktop view, and make a best guess based on resolution or UA sniffing or feature detection for "first visits" that don't include the cookie, and provide a prominent link to allow someone to switch
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
The only reason we're talking about DNS shit is because Arantor seems to think that's the only way to get Fark-like device detection working (which I'm a little dubious about, but whatever.) So it is kind of "mobile vs. desktop".
You'll need DNS insofar as making the domains resolve (and you may be able to get away with a single A record, but don't quote me on that), but actually serving different sites on them, that can be done in a few ways e.g. Virtual Hosts (as Apache calls them; forget what IIS calls them). I'd wager it's not unheard of to have it in the website code itself, either in addition to or instead of the virtual hosts. I've worked on and built sites that switch themes based on the domain name of the request; I see no reason you can;t switch to a totally different rendering path based on domain name.
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
I see no reason you can;t switch to a totally different rendering path based on domain name.
Or cookie.
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@arantor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Fuck this place
Don't put us in the same basket
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@blakeyrat no, you festering fartarse, the reason I go on about it is because it's how Fark themselves do it. You cite it as the pinnacle of aspiration, so I examined what they did.
You don't go down the routing request path because of duplicate content penalties, where m.domain.com was at least for a period of time the canonical mobile version of the site and recognised for not explicitly being a duplicate so you didn't get dinged for that.
They also explicitly use the domain to consistently keep you from switching by accident between the two modes, which is a large part of the complaint.
And their root form of identification is user agent, but making it easy to avoid screwing up.
Bet it's also really fun to manage twice as many themes.
As for the cookie route, that's an option but still raises the maintenance effort considerably, and there's the matter of the EU laws to deal with.
But sure, yes, stupid old me, hurr durr retard Arantor that has never worked on web design or forum software or open source hurr durr responsive.
Fuck that.
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Since this is the shit-upon-NodeBB thread now, can anyone tell me why it needs Flash?
http://i.imgur.com/voVTIwl.png
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@pie_flavor must be something in that thread.
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@pie_flavor
STATUS_NOTHING_TO_TERMINATE
Maybe it leaked out from a different thread or a usercard? I know someone here has a soundcloud thingy floating around...
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Not meaning to hijack, but the reason we don't use wysiwyg by default is because there is no reducible format we can save into the DB that can be output back into html on the way out, meaning we have to save html into the database.
Which is not necessarily a deal breaker, we do support the Redactor composer...
However the difference between markdown and html (despite your personal feelings for it) is that markdown can be turned into html but html can't (always) be turned into markdown. Allowing all html is a bad idea and we decided to limit the allowed content to markdown for safety.
The second reason is because escaping html royally sucks and all sorts of errors crop up with sites that try to save content as HTML and then edit them later.
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@onyx said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
I don't know how much CSS hackery of your own exists in NodeBB (which will dictate how much fixing would be required), but Bootstrap 4 is now out and that allows at least one more size class. It's also now based on flexbox which behaves better when you do weird things to it, might be time to give that a go and maybe tweak the thresholds in the SASS file as well before deployment?
Or, here's a thought...
IT'S A GODDAMN FUCKING FORUM! YOU DON'T NEED ALL THIS SHIT.
Fucking seriously. It's a chunk of text that says who posted and when, followed by a chunk of text that's the post.
The lists are a chunk of text that says who posted and when, followed by a chunk of text.
This isn't a fucking video game, or some flashy e-comm site, or some GPS map or something.
It's. A. Fucking. Bunch. Of. Text.
Bunch of fucking complicator motherfucking fuckers.
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@jaloopa said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
On mobile, all sorts of stuff tends to stop working.
Like the ability to upload a photo OH WAIT on mobile the button is there but horizontally off screen and also the text editor doesn't have any visible scroll bars but putting the "add image" button on the end is smrt.
@jaloopa said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
when changing between wifi and cellular signal
I still love ABSOLUTELY LOVE that the same software devs who jizz in their own mouths over streaming ONE PAGE APPS still have no way to handle an internet connection going down for a microsecond. It's almost as if websockets are dumb or something.
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@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
You are logged in but have been idle for five minutes, in which case real-time enhancements are disabled until you are no longer idle
wat. Do you know that sometimes people will do something odd like read a post? Or take a couple minutes to masturbate to a picture from the "Post Yourself"... I mean NSFW thread? So by using the forum, it breaks the forum?
@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
NodeBB tended to collapse under load in high-traffic websites
See above re: websockets. Add to that "while swallowing their own jizz, they don't stop to think what each websocket ping actually does on the backend, have no idea how to optimize anything, and end up choking their site to death by people using it"
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@blakeyrat said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
I don't know. But whatever they do works.
Here's the link to their css file:
http://www.fark.com/js/farktools_desktop.min_1504221964.js
It has @media queries in it. It's also minified to all shit and my standard unminifier dies. So
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@izzion said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
websocket
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@pie_flavor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
You may not see it. I see it. I don't see it on Discourse.
Yup, either
- a Discodev troll failing to trolling or
- Someone who was told they were using Discourse, but a smart web admin just installed PHPBB and skinned it to look like Discourse.
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Flash and Silverlight are/used to be things, you know.
Silverlight was never a thing. Ever.
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@raceprouk said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
That's assuming there's even a solution in the first place.
There is. @Arantor just arrived at it:
@arantor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Fuck this place, and fuck you.
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@julianlam said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
Not meaning to hijack, but the reason we don't use wysiwyg by default is because there is no reducible format we can save into the DB that can be output back into html on the way out, meaning we have to save html into the database.
Are you fucking kidding me? You can't either:
- Throw it into a prepared statement, like every query should be doing?
- base64 encode the fucker, then base64 decode on the way out?
This has to have been a joke reply. Please. I need to believe that.
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@lorne-kates said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@pie_flavor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
You may not see it. I see it. I don't see it on Discourse.
Yup, either
- a Discodev troll failing to trolling or
- Someone who was told they were using Discourse, but a smart web admin just installed PHPBB and skinned it to look like Discourse.
I take offense at statement #1, and it's definitely not #2
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@pie_flavor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
I take offense at statement #1, and it's definitely not #2
Nice try, Discotroll, but I'd rather click on a goatse link than one to a Discourse instance.
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@lorne-kates said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
@pie_flavor said in FlightAware starts using Sadness ensues:
I take offense at statement #1, and it's definitely not #2
Nice try, Discotroll, but I'd rather click on a goatse link than one to a Discourse instance.