Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language
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The list:
- HTML, which is a markup language, not a programming language
- Python, which... is actually quite easy to learn, to be fair
- JavaScript, which has far too many quirks and gotchas
- PHP, which isn't much better than JS, but it is improving
- Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
- R, which I have no opinion on
- Shell, which isn't one language, as there's bash, zsh, csh, cmd, PowerShell, etc.
- Ruby, which I don't have an opinion on
- Erlang, which I've never seen, let alone used
- Go, which should please @ben_lubar
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@raceprouk There was some discussion about this before, from an article that actually linked to the original post by WP Engine. There are such gems as
When we asked our 909 survey participants which language they found the most creative, 5.4% told us it was Javascript. This open-source code utilizes a combination of C, C++, and Java functions that are designed to allow programmers to pick the language that works best for them. Open-source hardware even allows users to manipulate code in either a standard text-based mode or in a visual mode.
Edit: meant to put the link in
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
My
RebuttalBeanFactorySingletonFactory
tried to come up with a comeback to that
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Also depends on "learn"... Consider chess. I can teach most 4 year olds to know the legal moves, they have learned sufficiently to play a "valid" game.
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@thecpuwizard That's about the level of a lot of Javascript developers, so hey
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Java is verbose, but maybe that helps with the learning. It makes you think what the code is really doing and the rules are simple, not like JS's ===, truey/falsey etc.
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@raceprouk Didn’t you already post this?
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@gurth Did I?
checks
IT'S THE SAME FUCKING ARTICLE.
Why is TechRepublic sending me month-old articles as if they're new‽
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@gurth Did I?
checks
IT'S THE SAME FUCKING ARTICLE.
You need better non-volatile RAM
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
- Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
I take you've never tried Delphi.
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@zmaster said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
- Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
I take you've never tried Delphi.
You would be correct.
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@zmaster said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
I take you've never tried Delphi.
Guess you never tried Java
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@zmaster said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
- Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
I take you've never tried Delphi.
I have tried Delphi. Java is far worse, by virtue (?) of culture if nothing else. The "
RebuttalBeanFactorySingletonFactory
" joke posted above would simply not work in a discussion about Delphi the way it does in a discussion about Java.
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
- Ruby, which I don't have an opinion on
Ruby is basically JavaScript with Perl syntax. Because those are two things that should be combined ever.
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@zmaster said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
- Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
I take you've never tried Delphi.
I can one-up that:
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@ben_lubar said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
can one-up that:
DM's Esoteric Programming Languages - BIT
Proof that LSD should have never been invented
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@masonwheeler said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@zmaster said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
- Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
I take you've never tried Delphi.
I have tried Delphi. Java is far worse, by virtue (?) of culture if nothing else. The "
RebuttalBeanFactorySingletonFactory
" joke posted above would simply not work in a discussion about Delphi the way it does in a discussion about Java.Delphi would be slightly more verbose as that'd have to be a
TRebuttalBeanFactorySingletonFactory
.
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basically, "here's a list of programming languages that don't require manual memory management and have built in garbage collection. oh and HTML."
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@groaner said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@masonwheeler said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@zmaster said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
- Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
I take you've never tried Delphi.
I have tried Delphi. Java is far worse, by virtue (?) of culture if nothing else. The "
RebuttalBeanFactorySingletonFactory
" joke posted above would simply not work in a discussion about Delphi the way it does in a discussion about Java.Delphi would be slightly more verbose as that'd have to be a
TRebuttalBeanFactorySingletonFactory
.I can't believe I forgot to add "Builder" too
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Java, which is verbose to the point of insanity
Ada is much more verbose than Java. What's past insanity?
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
HTML, which is a markup language, not a programming language
Meh...this objection always strikes me as pendantic dickweedery. I think it's not substantially different from writing in an interpreted language. You put stuff in a file and it tells the browser what to do.
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@boomzilla Uh, what? Saying HTML is a programming language is like saying that YAML or JSON (or INI) are programming languages. Programming languages construct programs. They represent a sequence of instructions. HTML constructs documents. It represents a layout of things.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla Uh, what? Saying HTML is a programming language is like saying that YAML or JSON (or INI) are programming languages. Programming languages construct programs. They represent a sequence of instructions. HTML constructs documents. It represents a layout of things.
Yeah, and I'm saying that's close enough. You're writing stuff that is being interpreted and generating output.
And before anyone else objects, if you're writing tex by hand? Yep, that passes the bar, too.
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla Uh, what? Saying HTML is a programming language is like saying that YAML or JSON (or INI) are programming languages. Programming languages construct programs. They represent a sequence of instructions. HTML constructs documents. It represents a layout of things.
Yeah, and I'm saying that's close enough. You're writing stuff that is being interpreted and generating output.
And before anyone else objects, if you're writing tex by hand? Yep, that passes the bar, too.
Let's see how low this bar goes. Do you consider Markdown a programming language?
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Let's see how low this bar goes. Do you consider Markdown a programming language?
Sure, why not?
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@pie_flavor simply be truly pedantic and specify only Turing-complete programming languages.
HTML itself isn't, you need CSS3 (last I recall anyway)
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@groaner said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
TRebuttal
Something that can launch a 90 kg counterpoint 300 metres?
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
Let's see how low this bar goes. Do you consider Markdown a programming language?
Sure, why not?
If a compiler was ever produced that interpreted English perfectly, would you consider English to be a programming language?
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@pie_flavor interpreted it into what exactly? If it's interpreted into a program, then yes!
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@darkmatter
isn't that supposedly what ruby wanted to be anyway? English as a programming language.things equals a plus b do things for five times inputting 5 and 7 :> 60
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
If a compiler was ever produced that interpreted English perfectly, would you consider English to be a programming language?
Wouldn't you? In what way would your hypothetical English interpreter not make English a programming language?
Here you've gone from an absurdly low (markdown) bar to perhaps the highest (English).
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@darkmatter said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@darkmatter
isn't that supposedly what ruby wanted to be anyway? English as a programming language.things equals a plus b do things for five times inputting 5 and 7 :> 60
I had considered mentioning Ruby but I started to throw up a bit in my mouth and I thought of @Rhywden.
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@boomzilla so how long were you going to troll him before you told him that what he's probably thinking of as the "bar" is Turing-complete programming languages.
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@darkmatter He was going to have to bring that up for himself. Then I'd ask why Turing complete was so important.
Like...what about SQL? Until you add in other stuff (T-SQL, PL/SQL, etc) it's not a Turing complete language but it's super important and very powerful.
The markup stuff is relatively simple, but that doesn't change the nature of what it does. Sure, OK, look down upon it from your Turing Complete Ivory Tower, but I think that's distorting the nature of things.
How about the html vs markdown comparison above? Well, markdown is probably easier to learn for simple stuff, but it lacks a lot of the power of html. You could make similar observations about other languages, and about their applicability towards various tasks.
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@darkmatter He was going to have to bring that up for himself. Then I'd ask why Turing complete was so important.
Like...what about SQL? Until you add in other stuff (T-SQL, PL/SQL, etc) it's not a Turing complete language but it's super important and very powerful.
The markup stuff is relatively simple, but that doesn't change the nature of what it does. Sure, OK, look down upon it from your Turing Complete Ivory Tower, but I think that's distorting the nature of things.
How about the html vs markdown comparison above? Well, markdown is probably easier to learn for simple stuff, but it lacks a lot of the power of html. You could make similar observations about other languages, and about their applicability towards various tasks.
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.
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@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
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@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
They both could be either. A web browser would take the first two examples and display them in a particular way. It was instructions that told the browser how to display stuff. There is literally no difference between your examples on that level.
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
If a compiler was ever produced that interpreted English perfectly, would you consider English to be a programming language?
Yes. Most everyone would. Why wouldn't you?
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@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@boomzilla said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
You claimed that it's a language if it instructs the computer to do something. In the case of HTML, it's simply a visual layout. The computer isn't being instructed to do anything, it's simply being passed data. HTML does not accept input, it does not have conditionals, it does not do anything except describe a layout. Actual programming functionality is provided by JavaScript, which is a programming language.
It's the difference between manipulating data and being the data.@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@pie_flavor I think a better way to describe it is that markup languages describe the result, and programming languages describe how to get there.
So a hello world program isn't a program? I still find this all quite arbitrary.
This is data:
<html><body>Hello World!</body></html>
This is still data:
<html><body><b><i>Hello World!</i></b></body></html>
This is an instruction to do something with data:
Console.WriteLine("Hello World!");
There is fuck-all difference between the three besides where the data is output. At least do some string concatenation or something. Something FizzBuzzy? Something. Otherwise all three are just instructions to output static data.
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@polygeekery said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
At least do some string concatenation or something.
<html><body><span>Hello</span><span> World!</span></body></html>
Done.
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@boomzilla ha!!
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@gurth said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@raceprouk Didn’t you already post this?
Thanks, I vaguely remembered having seen this thread before but I didn't want to deal with the NodeSearch.
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HTML doesn't have an if statement or any kind of control structure. While a hello-world might not need one, you cannot execute any logic with HTML. There is no input-process-output flow.
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@arantor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
There is no input-process-output flow.
And without that, there's no program.
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@pie_flavor The difference between data and instructions is not as clear cut as you think. Take windows metafiles (.emf), for example: they're essentially a list of GDI+ calls to draw something, i.e. instructions, yet that definitely counts as data.
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@darkmatter said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@darkmatter
isn't that supposedly what ruby wanted to be anyway? English as a programming language.things equals a plus b do things for five times inputting 5 and 7 :> 60
No, it wanted to be "a better Perl" (in much the same way as Go is supposed to be "a better C"), hence the gemstone name motif.
Also, that doesn't look like Ruby code to me. I don't have an interpreter handy, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't even parse.
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@raceprouk said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
@arantor said in Apparently, JavaScript is easy to learn, and HTML is a programming language:
There is no input-process-output flow.
And without that, there's no program.
Why not? It's a bunch of instructions given to the browser that tells it what to do.
Now, if your objection is that html isn't a general purpose programming language, then I'd agree. It's very specialized and limited.
Some browsers even included conditional logic in the way they interpreted HTML!
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@boomzilla so a Word document is a program now? (Exclude macros)
It's not a programming language, clue is in the name. It is for providing semantic meaning to text, browsers are only one form of interpreter, there are others that interpret the semantic meaning differently, but it's still not a program.