United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Anyone still going to play the apologist for these guys?
Let's just round up all United Airlines employees, take them out in to the desert and execute every last one of them and bury them in a mass grave. Would that make you happy?
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The most telling part is the last line:
The lawyer said Dao, of Elizabethtown, Kentucky, is still recovering from physical and emotional injuries, and hasn't been able to return to work.
He must not have needed to see his patients very urgently after all.
I'd argue, but it's been, what, three weeks now? That's easily long enough to recover from a few blood injuries. As for the emotional injuries, that smells like the lawyer angling for a larger payout.
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@RaceProUK said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
As for the emotional injuries, that smells like the lawyer angling for a larger payout.
Yes, Dao was full of shit and is now just trying to get a fat check and does not and never did give a shit about his patients.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Anyone still going to play the apologist for these guys?
Only if you continue to say dumb stuff about them.
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@boomzilla I am waiting to find out the real story is that it is likely SOP to cremate any animal that dies on an international flight because of the likelihood of disease being the cause. Because, that seems like a reasonable explanation.
But what do I know? I am one of those people who does not think that UA solely employs Bond villains.
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@RaceProUK said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I'd argue, but it's been, what, three weeks now? That's easily long enough to recover from a few blood injuries.
But not from a broken bone.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@RaceProUK said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I'd argue, but it's been, what, three weeks now? That's easily long enough to recover from a few blood injuries.
But not from a broken bone.
Depends on the bone broken. Also, not all broken bones prevent you from working e.g. if I broke a finger, I'd still be able to type.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I am waiting to find out the real story is that it is likely SOP to cremate any animal that dies on an international flight because of the likelihood of disease being the cause. Because, that seems like a reasonable explanation.
TFA said that the rabbit froze to death.
It emerged the rabbit froze to death after bungling ground staff in Chicago put him in a chiller by accident.
Perhaps we should just seal off Chicago and forget about it.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
But not from a broken bone.
He is a doctor. He does not run a jackhammer for a living. FFS, I once ran a bulldozer that had fingertip controls when I had two broken fingers.
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@RaceProUK said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Depends on the bone broken. Also, not all broken bones prevent you from working e.g. if I broke a finger, I'd still be able to type.
We actually had that happen at my previous job, a couple months ago. One person broke a finger. Came back into work after a week or so, but had huge problems with typing because the cast kept getting in the way.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
One person broke a finger. Came back into work after a week or so, but had huge problems with typing because the cast kept getting in the way.
Huh? Since when do they put casts on fingers?
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@Polygeekery Umm... since when don't they put casts on broken bones?
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
TFA said that the rabbit froze to death.
Yes, I read that. But that does not preclude there being a blanket law that says any animal who dies on an international flight has to be cremated to prevent spread of possible disease.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery Umm... since when don't they put casts on broken bones?
Not on fingers. Not that I have seen. They usually put a splint on it.
Like this:
I mean, I suppose they could put a cast on it. I have just never seen it.
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@Polygeekery Fair enough. So does such a law exist, or are you just getting this from shoulder aliens?
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery Umm... since when don't they put casts on broken bones?
They don't generally on toes or fingers. Usually just buddy tape them.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Not on fingers. Not that I have seen. They usually put a splint on it.
Like this:
I mean, I suppose they could put a cast on it. I have just never seen it.
No, this was big plaster cast that covered a fair amount of the hand and went down past the wrist. Not sure of the details, but apparently the doctor(s) believed it was necessary.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery Fair enough. So does such a law exist, or are you just getting this from shoulder aliens?
I was speculating about a possible reason the giant bunny was cremated. Because I do not think that UA is run by Bond villains. Nowhere did I say that such a law exists, and right now with all of the @masonwheeler types crying moral outrage over this the Google search results are completely polluted for a while so I cannot find anything. But, I really would not be surprised that it was the reason that the bunny was cremated.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
No, this was big plaster cast that covered a fair amount of the hand and went down past the wrist. Not sure of the details, but apparently the doctor(s) believed it was necessary.
Fair enough. I have just never seen it. Also, to be fair, GIS returned a few results like that when I searched for "broken finger splint", so it is a thing. I have just never seen it. It looks unwieldy.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
It looks unwieldy.
It really was! (Which was the point I was making.) :P
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
No, this was big plaster cast that covered a fair amount of the hand and went down past the wrist. Not sure of the details, but apparently the doctor(s) believed it was necessary.
Fair enough. I have just never seen it. Also, to be fair, GIS returned a few results like that when I searched for "broken finger splint", so it is a thing. I have just never seen it. It looks unwieldy.
While I've never broken a finger I had an infected cat bite on my dominant hand that required surgery and damn it is hard to do everyday things like brush your teeth, go to the bathroom when your dominant hand is injured.
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@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
They don't overbook, this was a mixup. And with this, your argument is rendered moot once again.
The flight was full, one more person came on board, they tried to kick her off without checking if she was with a family.
Eventually, another announcement stated the airline would offer 300 euros to any passenger who was willing to disembark.
One man agreed, and the plane was cleared for take-off.They WERE overbooked, policy be damned.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery Fair enough. So does such a law exist, or are you just getting this from shoulder aliens?
I was speculating about a possible reason the giant bunny was cremated. Because I do not think that UA is run by Bond villains. Nowhere did I say that such a law exists, and right now with all of the @masonwheeler types crying moral outrage over this the Google search results are completely polluted for a while so I cannot find anything. But, I really would not be surprised that it was the reason that the bunny was cremated.
Signs point to no:
https://www.cdc.gov/features/travelwithpets/Illness or Death of a Pet during Travel
Although we don’t like to think about it, sometimes pets become ill or even die while in flight. As if dealing with severe illness or death of your furry companion wouldn’t be enough, travelers in this situation have to deal with a few government requirements as well. Public health officials are required to make sure that your pet did not die of a contagious disease that could infect people. This might involve a necropsy (animal autopsy) or other tests, at your cost, to determine the cause of death. Unfortunately, in many instances the animal’s remains cannot be returned to you after this testing.
So...not sure what public health officials did in this case. OTOH:
“We won’t know the cause of death because we offered to perform a necropsy free of charge – that’s standard procedure – but the customer didn’t want us to perform a necropsy, and we understand,” said Hobart.
Which contradicts what the CDC said (and the apparent desires of the owner), though I guess if the animal was frozen solid...
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@abarker said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Now, Ryanair has a policy against overselling, so do a handful of other airlines. I am aware of absolutely zero commercial airlines that have eliminated overbooking.
This
@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
much?
No. It makes a huge difference.
They mean to say they don't purposefully overbook. They don't sell more tickets than a plane has.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Anyone still going to play the apologist for these guys?
Can we mature past the point where I say two jerks got into a barfight and people think I'm apologizing for one of them.
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@boomzilla So, there's a requirement (presumably of the "legal requirement" variety) that public health officials perform a necropsy in cases like this, which explicitly overrides the will of the animal's owner, ("Unfortunately, in many instances the animal’s remains cannot be returned to you after this testing.") and the owner states that she wanted to have one done, to determine how the bunny died, and yet the United spokesman says this didn't happen due to the will of the owner?
Someone seriously needs to introduce United to the First Rule of Holes, because they just keep digging themselves deeper...
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@xaade said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@abarker said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Now, Ryanair has a policy against overselling, so do a handful of other airlines. I am aware of absolutely zero commercial airlines that have eliminated overbooking.
This
@kt_ said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
much?
No. It makes a huge difference.
They mean to say they don't purposefully overbook. They don't sell more tickets than a plane has.
No it doesn't. This is what we talked about when talking about overbooking. The distinction was never needed, because everybody meant overselling when said overbooking. I don't have the time nor inclination to go research if what you're telling is true, but if you want this much of a cy, then why haven't you pointed this out earlier?
Fuck this, I went to Wikipedia:
So yeah, after taking a quick glance, no distinction. We were all talking about overbooking. And Ryanair has policy against overbooking. And they don't overbook, ie purposefully. And that makes the whole difference in the world in the context.
So, airlines in America could probably easily prosper without overbooking. Also, take a look at the economist link I posted later.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
So, there's a requirement (presumably of the "legal requirement" variety) that public health officials perform a necropsy in cases like this, which explicitly overrides the will of the animal's owner, ("Unfortunately, in many instances the animal’s remains cannot be returned to you after this testing.") and the owner states that she wanted to have one done, to determine how the bunny died, and yet the United spokesman says this didn't happen due to the will of the owner?
I dunno...there's no reference there to any law and I can't find anything that seems applicable. This specifies stuff like:
(3) Record of sickness or death of dogs and cats and requirements for exposed animals. (i) The carrier responsible for the care of dogs and cats shall maintain a record of sickness or death of animals en route to the United States and shall submit the record to the quarantine station at the U.S. port upon arrival. Dogs or cats which have become sick while en route or are dead on arrival shall be separated from other animals as soon as the sickness or death is discovered, and shall be held in confinement pending any necessary examination as determined by the Director.
But obviously a rabbit isn't a dog or cat. Regarding importing non-human primates:
(5) If HHS/CDC notifies an importer of any evidence that NHPs have been exposed to a zoonotic disease, the importer must, at the importer's expense, implement or cooperate in the HHS/CDC's implementation of additional measures to rule out the spread of suspected zoonotic disease before releasing a shipment from quarantine, including examination, additional diagnostic procedures, treatment, detention, isolation, seizure, or destruction of exposed animals.
(6) An importer must establish, implement, and adhere to SOPs for safe handling and necropsy of any NHP that dies in quarantine.
@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Someone seriously needs to introduce United to the First Rule of Holes, because they just keep digging themselves deeper...
Meh...I think this sort of stuff happens all the time (definitely animals dying on flights–there are regulations about reporting such). People are just looking for any reason to be angry at United right now and any operation that big that deals with that many people on a regular basis is going to have plenty of fodder.
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Anyone still going to play the apologist for these guys?
Let's just round up all United Airlines employees, take them out in to the desert and execute every last one of them and bury them in a mass grave. Would that make you happy?
Just the CEO and the board is enough for me.
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Meh...I think this sort of stuff happens all the time (definitely animals dying on flights
From the article up thread
The most recent figures from the US Department of Transportation - dating from 2015 but released this February - show 35 animal deaths occurred during transit across 17 carriers in the States.
United accounted for 14 animal deaths in that period
So it's pretty rare, but United seem to be involved in almost half of the deaths.
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@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
The most recent figures from the US Department of Transportation - dating from 2015 but released this February - show 35 animal deaths occurred during transit across 17 carriers in the States.
United accounted for 14 animal deaths in that periodSo it's pretty rare, but United seem to be involved in almost half of the deaths.
There are more numbers needed. What is the rate of animal deaths to animal flights by airline? If United has half of the animal flights then it isn't saying anything.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery Umm... since when don't they put casts on broken bones?
My broken clavicle was simply put in a sling. Not strapped down at all.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
She wanted the body in order to do a post-mortem, because the rabbit was healthy before she left and she wanted to determine how it died. So United went and destroyed the evidence.
Anyone still going to play the apologist for these guys?The reasonable minimum action (absent other evidence) would be full compensation to the entire value of the animal, given that it was private property that was destroyed by the airline or their agents. It might be that the cremation was something required by law, but it was the death that caused the true loss of value (rabbit meat isn't really very expensive) so the need to compensate was already incurred at that point. It'd be for UA to prove in court (or via an out-of-court settlement) that anything less was what they could get away with.
The true thesis of the complainant was that it was the lack of care by UA that lead to the loss of her property. A court would very likely take the view that UA had a duty of care, particularly since the animal would have been booked as such, and no option to transport it inside the cabin would have been available. Whether the lack of care was by direct policy, or by failure to train the cargo agents, or whatever, all that isn't nearly as important: it was UA that took on the reasonable duty of care by offering to transport the goods, and the rest of it is just the internal affairs of UA.
UA might prefer to content that the animal was sick prior to being placed into their care, but that'd be up to them to demonstrate and convince a judge about (relative to the thesis of the complainant, given that this would be a civil case for sure).
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@dkf I can't find anything in the news, but given that United seems to have taken responsibility for the death, I'd guess that they'll be paying her something. They've paid off Dao, but the terms are not being disclosed.
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@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
given that United seems to have taken responsibility for the death, I'd guess that they'll be paying her something
OK, if they've taken responsibility then they'll be making a compensation payout. (Or perhaps their insurers will.) Things do sometimes get damaged in transit, no matter how much management might hope that it doesn't happen, so there'll be legal mechanisms in place to handle it.
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
So, there's a requirement (presumably of the "legal requirement" variety) that public health officials perform a necropsy in cases like this, which explicitly overrides the will of the animal's owner, ("Unfortunately, in many instances the animal’s remains cannot be returned to you after this testing.") and the owner states that she wanted to have one done, to determine how the bunny died, and yet the United spokesman says this didn't happen due to the will of the owner?
Someone seriously needs to introduce United to the First Rule of Holes, because they just keep digging themselves deeper...The quoted information says that there's a requirement that public health officials determine that it didn't die of a zoonotic disease, which might require a necropsy. Presumably, if the cause of death is obvious, that's not necessary.
The owner wanted the rabbit's body returned so she could have a necropsy done. She's quoted as saying
I had been asking United over and over again for his body so that I can have him examined here in Britain but they never got back to me.
Which suggests to me that when they offered to do one she didn't trust them and wanted to have it done herself. Understandable I guess.
As to why the rabbit was cremated and not returned to her, I don't know what interaction of airline policy, public health regulations, miscommunication, and potentially an attempt to cover up what happened is behind that. The fact that they're apparently admitting they killed the rabbit by a presumably easy to avoid error would argue against the cover-up theory - would they not have claimed the unfortunate rabbit died of sudden heart failure or something? If putting him in a freezer and leaving him to die there is their cover story, what are we suggesting actually happened?
First Rule of Holes
The shade belongs to the Warden. I'm afraid I don't see the relevance.
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@CarrieVS said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
First Rule of Holes
The shade belongs to the Warden. I'm afraid I don't see the relevance.
"When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@CarrieVS said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
First Rule of Holes
The shade belongs to the Warden. I'm afraid I don't see the relevance.
"When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
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@masonwheeler I understood, but thank you anyway.
Edit:
Anyway, you can't stop digging until your hole is as deep as your shovel.
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@CarrieVS I am pretty sure he just mansplained to you.
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@dkf said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@boomzilla said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
given that United seems to have taken responsibility for the death, I'd guess that they'll be paying her something
OK, if they've taken responsibility then they'll be making a compensation payout. (Or perhaps their insurers will.) Things do sometimes get damaged in transit, no matter how much management might hope that it doesn't happen, so there'll be legal mechanisms in place to handle it.
Without a necropsy how you'll know their employees didn't hunt rabbits in the wrong season?
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@wharrgarbl rabbit season usually ends in late February or early March. He was out of season.
Maybe it was not so much a "cremation" as a "fricassee"?
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@Polygeekery don't these seasons change in different locations? you need to have a precise time of death and the flight plan
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@Polygeekery said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
fricassee
Flemish cuisine: rabbit with prunes
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@Luhmann said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Flemish cuisine: rabbit with prunes
Yeah, but this thread is about UA, not Brussels Airlines…
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@dkf said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Brussels Airlines
Their service is punctual ... no surprise since SN is owned by Lufthansa
On a related note ... the rabbit with prunes song!
Cas Goossens & Eugène Flagey - Konijn Met Pruimen – 01:41
— CHUPACHIEP
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@masonwheeler said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@coldandtired said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
Wow. She wanted the body in order to do a post-mortem, because the rabbit was healthy before she left and she wanted to determine how it died. So United went and destroyed the evidence.
Anyone still going to play the apologist for these guys?
Actually I think UA is preventing her to sue them for mishandling the pet. The rabbit died because it's frozen in the chiller. I don't think anyone will put living animal in the chiller over hours and expect it to survive.
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@cheong said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
I don't think anyone will put living animal in the chiller over hours and expect it to survive.
What if it were a penguin?
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@wharrgarbl said in United Airlines: the airline we love to hate, but we can't agree on why:
@Polygeekery don't these seasons change in different locations? you need to have a precise time of death and the flight plan
I believe hunting seasons are generally aligned with mating and breeding. So, unless the bunny crossed the equator it should hold true.