@coynethedup Sounds like your company failed its SAN check.
Best posts made by Kian
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RE: The game of "Spaghetti Servers"
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RE: A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted
@DCoder "At least the lawyers are having fun" is probably not a phrase you want associated with the currency of the future(tm).
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RE: We need to be more user hostile to help them embrace freedom!
The problem with ideologues is that they want a world where everyone cares about the things they care about with the same zeal they do. And that just won't happen. People care about a handful of things, and that's it. No one can care about everything, there's just not enough time in the world to champion every cause.
Which is not to say that I'm not grateful they exist, they care about things so I don't have to. Computers are very powerful, they control most of the modern world such that or current standard of living would be impossible without them, and keeping them open and accessible to everyone ensures that that power doesn't become concentrated in a few hands.
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RE: Which one of you assholes did this?
@Lorne-Kates So someone decided to go "Fuck you, no one should give you money"? Spoilsports. It's such an elegant business model, too. Cuts right through the bullshit of most crowdfunding attempts.
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Lorne Kates is a marketing executive
“To me, it’s a ridiculous argument that Rotten Tomatoes is the problem,” says a marketing executive at an independent film distributor. “Fuck you—make a good movie!”
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RE: 256 is "oddly specific number"...
If they were doing it right, the headline would read:
WhatsApp increases group chat size limit to 9223372036854775807 people
It's not clear why WhatsApp settled on such an oddly specific number
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The Windows Store is TRWTF
Just had a very annoying shopping experience with Microsoft, and since I didn't want to rant at the poor support drones for something that was outside their power I came here instead.
So I got a PC, came with Windows Home, and had to upgrade to Pro. Now, this is a minor issue, but you can apparently get the upgrade for half of what the full license costs at the online store. To get the special price you have to go through Settings > Update & Security > Activation, and click on upgrade. That opens a special window (doesn't open in your default browser, I imagine it's Edge behind it) with the purchase option at half price. At least I didn't see the upgrade option when I was looking at the store. So that in itself is kind of a dick move.
But then I tried to buy it, and damn, I didn't know you could fail at running a store so badly. Let's skip the privacy and security issues around forcing me to link my credit card with my Microsoft account and not letting me just pay anonymously, that's par for the course. As I'm entering the details, the Country option in the billing address is fixed. And obviously, since I'm travelling abroad, it's fixed in the wrong country. I poke at the form a couple times, mess with my account and settings, but it's not having any of it, so I open a chat with Microsoft Support. To their credit, getting a hold of a real person on chat is pretty quick.
The support guy takes a look, and tells me the problem. I can't make purchases from a country other than the one my credit card is from. This virtual store, selling virtual goods, cares where I physically am at to decide if it will accept my card. Everyone else, from Amazon to the drugstore down the street, will accept my card with no issue, but not the Microsoft Store. Because Microsoft cares about my "privacy and security", according to the support guy. Their solution is to instead use PayPal. Which implies Microsoft feels PayPal is more secure than their store.
So I'm busy, I already spent more than the 15 minutes I meant to waste on the store, and go about the rest of my day until just now when I could get the time to give it another shot. I set my information up on PayPal, go to the Upgrade link, select PayPal as my payment option, and naturally it fails again, with the error message just saying "Please contact support" and a fairly long string of random letters and numbers to give to support.
So I call support again, tell the first guy the issue I had and paste the error message in the chat with the code, and I get transferred to billing. There the guy looks at a few things, and apparently the issue is now that my card's currency is ARS, while the store was showing me the price in USD. This despite the fact that the payment processor is PayPal, and that VISA knows how to convert from any currency to ARS just fine. Again, this is something that every other store, online and physical, handles without bothering me about it.
And the most stupid thing in all of this is that the guy tells me that to get the right store, I have to go into my computer's settings and change the Computer's home location to my country. Well, no, the most stupid thing is actually that this finally works. So for whatever reason, the online store is asking my computer where it's from, and if that doesn't match the billing address of the person paying for the software, the operation doesn't go forward. I just can't understand what was going through the mind of whoever came up with such a messed up way of going about things.
The one good thing about this is that I got to pay for the upgrade in my own currency. My country is going through a bit of a crisis right now, and their store was using an old conversion rate from a couple weeks ago that saved me about 20% of the price. I'm calling it the shithole country discount.
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RE: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself
@blek I thought that was a roundabout way of referring to himself. But then again I'm used to c++ and tracing pointer shenanigans.
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RE: Programming Confessions Thread
@Polygeekery said in Programming Confessions Thread:
I looked up how many bits you need to count to 999999. Specifically, I asked Google to give me the result for log2(999999). Our application has hand-rolled time functions, and a feature request came in to add microsecond support. Our time structure uses bitfields to encode the second, minutes, hours, day, month and year, and had enough bits left over for my needs.
I also checked what the latest supported version of GCC was in our oldest supported OSes, debian6. It is lower than 4.8, so no std::chrono for us, or any modern c++ for that matter.
I would hope they understand why I'm looking for work :P
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The ultimate ide
In a world that keeps trying to bring back the tools available in 1973, these guys are pushing the envelope and creating new ways to develop and share code.
Might try to contribute a wooden table plugin for it.
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RE: What if we just didn't write the bugs, then we wouldn't have buggy software
@pie_flavor well, before formally verifying my code I would first need to have ever been given a spec that covered everything the program needed to do. I would then need the spec to not change between the time it was given to me and the time it is ready to be verified.
Hell, give me those two things and I would write bug free code even without formal verification methods.
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RE: 256 is "oddly specific number"...
So what are your seven other rules of thumb?
It sounds like one of them is "Don't grab my tail or I keep your thumb."
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RE: A.I. gone wrong...
@Gurth said in A.I. gone wrong...:
So it evolved cheating — if a human-like AI is the goal, obviously we’re pretty much there.
It's not really cheating though. The computer is just doing what it is being rewarded for doing. It's not their fault the operator set incentives that didn't result in what they wanted. Or rather, if you don't know what it is you're looking for, you can't really be shocked when you don't get what you expected.
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RE: Google+ officially coming to an end
@PJH everything in the lounge is 200% true and not exaggerated or biased at all.
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RE: Headless Mac Mini Servers are shitassdickassshitdung
From their site: "Once you have a Mac mini installed, you'll be surprised how many ways there are to use it." So, buy first, figure out why the hell you did it later?
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RE: When arguments about GPUs go too far
@RaceProUK Looking at it a little differently, a man was sent to prison because the judge didn't agree with his opinion of which GPU was superior.
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RE: Smashing the Vegetarian Vaccination Binary! #BecauseScienceIsStillAThing
But that's an "acceptable risk", right? A cure that saves 1000 and kills one is acceptable?
Ordinarily, of course, yes. But when that one is likely to be your son, you're a lot more willing to take your chances in the other direction.
I don't think you understand how statistics work. Or risk. The fact that chances are one thousand to one means that your child is one thousand times more likely to be in the 1000 than being the 1. If you were at the races, and someone told you a horse has a thousand to one chance of winning a race, would you bet against it?But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that one in one thousand children die because of vaccines (which they don't). Your position is that you don't want to expose your child to the one in one thousand chance of dying due to a vaccine, so you forgo all immunization. Take the risk in the other direction.
So, do you have any numbers for the risk of dying due to any of the diseases your children didn't get shots for? Because that is the risk you choose to take. Instead of 1/1000, you take x/1000. You're just assuming that x must be lower than 1.
You can use this site to check child mortality (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT) and immunization (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.IDPT/countries?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc): I can't make a detailed analysis now, but a quick check will show you that there's an inverse correlation between immunization and infant mortality rates. Now, that's attributable to many other related effects (countries with higher immunization percentages are generally richer and have more developed health infrastructure), but vaccination is one of the pillars of modern healthcare.
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Rust is too cumbersome, let's rewrite it in C++
Funny story I found, this guy has a 3d modeler tool, mostly C++ but he'd rewritten one component (originally in pure C) in Rust after drinking the kool-aid. But after working with it, the benefits seemed to be outweighed by the nagging of the compiler and immaturity of the platform. So he rewrote it in C++, despite recognizing the theoretical advantages of Rust.
The comments are fun too, with some Rust fans being apparently offended that this guy working on a real project would turn his back on their language, and implying that he must be a bad programmer if the compiler was getting in his way. I'd like to see their 3d modeler apps.
Mostly posting here to trigger our own rust fans :)
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RE: Common Core math question is Algebra!!!! *gasp*
Question:How do you get 10 from 8 + 5?
Answer:You take 2 from 5 and add it to 10.
What the fuck is that I don't even
I don't understand what "get 10 from 8 + 5" means. 8+5=13. "How do you get 10 from 13"? What kind of retarded question is that? You don't "get" 10 from 13. 13 is 13. You can take the difference of 3 and 13, and the result of that is 10, but you could also multiply 13 by 10/13! (13*10/13 = 10) Or divide by 13/10, add -3, raise to some power (smaller than 1), etc.
Are you people teaching math wrong to children on purpose? Don't you know children will actually believe any dumb shit you tell them, and try to apply it to their lives? They don't understand sarcasm! Some poor fuck is going to grow up and think that's how math actually works!
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RE: What about using blockchain for data?
@masonwheeler Bad idea. The first clue that it's a bad idea is that it proposes a solution and then tries to fit the problem to it. Good ideas generally identify a common problem first, then the solution provides a fix for the problem.
The blockchain was proposed and popularized by a bunch of people that didn't even clearly understand the problem they wanted to solve, and didn't provide a solution for the problems they did identify despite saying it did. Now, after a lot of research and resources was poured into this technology, the fact that it doesn't do anything useful is starting to get people worried and they're trying to find a problem that it fixes.
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RE: Initiative Q - Money from nowhere?
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
- You have no payment network. It's all hypothetical.
That's exactly the idea. If you build the payment network AFTER you have critical mass, then you can bring the top talent in the field, and have them focus on functionality and efficiency, rather than being limited by "chicken and egg" concerns.
This is perhaps the bit that confuses me. Why do you need to wait for a critical mass before hiring the people that will create the system? The engineers designing the system, writing the code, and building the infrastructure, basically everyone doing this very difficult, very critical point 3 in your plan to turn Qs into money, don't care about the "chicken and egg" issue.
Speaking as top talent, even if no one ever uses the system, you keep the investor capital flowing into my bank account at a reasonable rate, and I'll build you what you want. Let the marketing people, economists, C-suits and all those folks worry about getting people to use it and making a profit out of it. I'm with my headphones on doing my thing. If you fail, it won't be because the system I built didn't meet the design goals and I'll just get another job. If you succeed, I'll be well positioned to cash in on the success. So it's a win-win for me.
I can see two reasons you might want to wait until you have critical mass before building anything. One, you want to pay your top talent with Qs and equity and such, and hope that once there's buzz you'll be able to get them to work for free. But top talent's gotta eat and I'm pretty sure anyone that falls for it isn't going to be top talent. Two, you doubt you can get the investor capital until you show a critical mass, and expect to be able to create the system in a hurry once you get that capital. I doubt what you build in a hurry with investors asking where your payment system is will live up to your expectations.
- You have no payment network. It's all hypothetical.
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RE: The Official Funny Stuff Thread™
@dcon said in The Official Funny Stuff Thread™:
@hardwaregeek said in The Official Funny Stuff Thread™:
survey
One word. Delete
I'm truly sick and tired of being asked for a survey for every service I have. Doctor, dentist, car tuneup, etc. Fuck off. Just fuck off.
Survey: In a scale of one to five, how sick are you of our surveys?
Would you recommend this service if we stopped sending you surveys?
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RE: Inform vs Datalog: the ultimate cage match
So, how many porn games are there written for inform 7, and how many porn games are written in Datalog? I'd look it up, but I don't want either Inform 7 or Datalog in my search history.
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RE: Stack Overflow trials question templates; hugely improves question quality
@cabbage said in Stack Overflow trials question templates; hugely improves question quality:
My friends say "Qui Gen, you need an email server so you cannot have your emails taken from you"
Qui Gen needs better friends.
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RE: Exact Instructions
The real issue is the DPI (Dad Programming Interface) is inconsistent. "Get two pieces of bread" works pretty reliably (doesn't try to pull them through the packaging, for instance), but other commands require variable levels of specificity to do what they want. I did appreciate when he began to stick the knife in the peanut butter handle first.
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RE: The Official Funny Stuff Thread™
http://cube-drone.com/comics/c/the-only-way
I know making fun of git for being easy to break is overdone, but until they fix it I'll continue finding it funny. -
RE: WTF Bites
Got a new job working with a primarily Visual Basic shop that wants to move its flagship product to C++. So I'm getting to work with COM a lot, as I have to replace modules while keeping interfaces intact. ATL offers a lot of convenience classes and methods to make working with COM less painful. Honestly, it's not too bad, once you start to understand how the MIDL compiler writes the headers and how the ATL class structure works.
For example, you have CComObject class, which has a handy CreateInstance method so you don't have to do a system call that searches the registry when the class you want to instantiate is in your own project. Of course, COM objects are reference counted, and CreateInstance creates an object with a ref count of 0, so remember to call AddRef immediately upon creation.
But CComObject::CreateInstance is perhaps a bit too convenient, and maybe you don't want a pointer to the base object, just one to the interfaces the object exposes. Well, CComCoClass has you covered. It also has a CreateInstance method, but it only returns interface pointers, not object pointers. I hope you remembered to call AddRef. Oh, you did? Well, that explains why you were leaking that object then. This CreateInstance gives you an object with a refcount of 1. Isn't that so much more convenient?
Yes, the documentation doesn't mention this fact. I hope the fact that we omitted to make mention of the reference count was sufficient information to infer that you didn't have to call it. I know, the documentation for the other CreateInstance links to this CreateInstance, and your default ATL object inherits both, but it shouldn't take long to figure it out.
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RE: covfefe
Obviously he was writing 'coverage' when the stroke hit. Luckily the result of most strokes are speech impediments, reduced vocabulary, dementia and such, so no real change.
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RE: WTF Bites
Had to reset my computer to factory settings, so I'm going through resintalling everything. Because I have a fast SSD and a large spinning disk in my machine, I relocate all my user folders to the big disk, including my Downloads folder. Next up, I use the microsoft official chromE DownloadinG Engine to download the Chrome installer, and then use Chrome to download installers for everything else.
I accidentally forget to tell Chrome to ask me where to download files to, so for the first thing I download it defaults to my Downloads folder. Except not really. Some genius at Google set the thing up to hard code the Downloads folder location. So instead of going to D:\Users\Kian\Downloads, it sends the file to C:\Users\Kian\Downloads. And because that folder doesn't exist anymore, it actually goes ahead and creates the folder itself.
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RE: The Official Funny Stuff Thread™
@Jaloopa citation is both a way to call a ticket (or being informed about a court date), and the model of the aircraft
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RE: I can glue jQuery together, I don't need to know FizzBuzz!
I wanted to point out that her image of fizz buzz dying in a fire [img]https://css-tricks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/fizz-buzz-dying-in-a-fire.jpg[/img]
was wrong. It doesn't fizz for multiples of 3, just buzzes. It only fizzed in multiples of 15, when doing "fizzbuzz". But the comments were already closed :( -
RE: The Fun of Zen
@Karla said in The Fun of Zen:
My therapist recommended this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Wherever-You-Go-There-Are/dp/1401307787I've found these Zenbooks to be useful
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RE: Guy recreates $1.4 million TSA app in 10 minutes
Of course writing a random "left or right" arrow is trivial. It's hooking up the webcam so it can identify the color of the person's skin and "randomly" choose the right (as in correct) arrow that's the tricky bit.
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RE: All I want for Christmas is a removable battery...
@aapis said in All I want for Christmas is a removable battery...:
All phone batteries are removable
at least once.
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RE: Install under any other name…
I would choose option 3 : Contact Shitty application v1.4 beta 5 programmer and ask him to fix that shit.
HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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RE: The Official Funny Stuff Thread™
Also, programmer job ads are funny for being a keyword-laden list of contradictory or impossible requirements, but that humor is inaccessible to people who don't know what all the keywords mean (which is how they get written in the first place). Likening it to a car-driver job makes the humor accessible to more people.
Unfortunately they missed the part where a candidate with those skills shows up, and is then given a plane to pilot.
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RE: Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths
@Gąska said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
well, you sure made it look like much more than just the default.
I'm confused. Are you upset that he doesn't troll consistently and if he's made one hyperbolic statement once he should not later present a reasonable position? I mean, what response are you going for, to get him to confess that he actually hasn't ever had a positive interaction with an open source project?
@El_Heffe said in Big list of software that cannot handle spaces or accents in paths:
How is that even possible?
When your idea of inter-process communication is to use the command line to pass information between programs, the fact that command lines split tokens on whitespace presents problems that shitty programmers don't care to address. Yes, you can escape those, but then you wouldn't be a shitty programmer and wouldn't be using the command line in the first place.
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RE: Now about that change request...
The source of these problems is the braindead belief that inside a company, every interaction between departments is zero-sum. Either one side made the company money, or the other one did it. Failing to realize that the entire company is working towards a goal (profitability, I'd hope).
Expecting each individual department to "pull it's own weight" is dumb. It shows that they can't grasp that one department could be making every other department make more money without pulling in money itself.
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RE: The Official Funny Stuff Thread™
@pie_flavor So this is some kind of neural network generated "noise" image that tries to look like things? Because I can't identify anything in that image, even with Tsaukpaetra's list. As in, I am literally looking at it and only see patches of textures.
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RE: How did you start hating opensource?
Licenses, the infectious ones. It might not matter for a hobby project, but once you want to distribute something, figuring out what you can and can't do is more trouble than it's worth.
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RE: A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted
@DCoder if Facebook is handling the transactions in the first place, why have a crypto token? Just have a regular database with transactions! It's not like Facebook needs to raise funding. The only reason I can think of is they want to avoid regulations, but the article claims they'd still be required to follow those.
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RE: Something dumber than Retro VGS
Hahahahahaha:
Those coded sound waves are then used to unlock access to content that's stored in the cloud, according to a PlugAir explanation video.
So you get the worst of both worlds! You need to stay connected, and you need to not lose or damage the (tiny) cartridge!
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RE: A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted
@kt_ said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
So, good AV will help you.
How long before a scandal breaks that mining software is being packaged into popular AVs?
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RE: A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted
@topspin I have a coworker that put some money on crypto, and I tried to explain to him how wrongheaded the very concept of a centralized trading site that keeps the bitcoins in one wallet and trades on virtual accounts is, but he didn't seem to quite grasp the issue.
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RE: Recruiting Giants
TIL I'm not a real software engineer. I may enjoy programming, but when I do it for the company, it's work. It may be enjoyable work at the best of times, but if I were free to code what I want with the people I want to do it with, I wouldn't choose my work project with my cow-orkers. And fuck long hours. Even the best programmers are going to be counterproductive if they're working 80 hour weeks. Speaking for myself, if I don't sleep properly, I'm a zombie the next day.
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RE: Let's not debate creationism in the News thread
@djls45 said in Let's not debate creationism in the News thread:
What data do you think creationists ignore?
Geology, biology and cosmology all arrive at similar conclusions through completely different paths.
Biology rules out a 6000 years old world through various mechanisms. Even ignoring evolution and genetic analysis, the amount of evidence we have for species that have died off would require that species go extinct at an incredible rate, but ancient records (from the Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Chinese and the like, thousands of years old) don't mention any of the currently extinct species. And no, the flood doesn't account for it because the book being interpreted literally says Noah saved a breeding pair of each species. It doesn't say that God decided some species would drown and some would be saved.
Cosmology has the background cosmic radiation as a starting point, and a bunch of other models for how planets are formed that require extremely long timescales.
Geology shows evidence of sedimentary layers helping to gauge how old something is, with fossils of a given era for example always showing up in the same layers, even when those layers extrude out of the ground from seismic activity. Tectonic plate activity also shows evidence that, for example, Africa and America once were the same continent, and it would have taken much longer than 6000 years for tectonic drift to put them where they are.
So, on the one hand you have multiple independent disciplines all reaching the same conclusions and using those to advance their fields even further, and on the other you have a group of people either ignoring or arguing for special circumstances to justify the evidence. Evolution is just a tiny portion of a vast body of interlocking knowledge that supports each other. It's not just "Creationism vs Evolution".
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RE: A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted
The thing that surprises me about these guys losing huge amounts of money is, how did they ever get to have $80000 or $500000 when you're so bad at money? Ok, one of the guys said he took a loan, so he's hurting a bank too. And the unemployed guy gambled his wife's money, so I guess that's how they get access to money. They betray other people's trust.
Unless that suicide hotline is giving them instructions, they're doing it wrong.
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RE: More Intel benchmarking shenanigans
@ben_lubar said in More Intel benchmarking shenanigans:
@TimeBandit said in More Intel benchmarking shenanigans:
@ben_lubar said in More Intel benchmarking shenanigans:
You don't want to shoot guns at illegal space aliens?
I don't discriminate.
I shoot legal ones too
Pretty sure none of the hostile aliens invading planets are there legally.
I'm sure that according to their laws, the invasion was legal. The war is to decide who's law applies.
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RE: Initiative Q - Money from nowhere?
Doesn't look like a scam despite walking and quaking like one, since they don't actually ask for money or anything other than "participation". So let's see.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:The problem is not competition, but how silly it is that we identify our accounts with a large piece of plastic
What exactly is silly about credit cards being made of plastic? Have you actually considered all the benefits they afford, or do you simply think that anything old must be silly? Consider, just for starters, that credit cards don't require that you have a smartphone with a data plan. When one of the hurdles you're trying to overcome is "barriers to entry", it's hard to beat a piece of plastic.
Credit cards are suboptimal, causing sellers to resort to technology that is thousands of years old (cash).
Again, old doesn't automatically mean bad. It may be inconvenient, but the older thing works as a fallback for the newer thing, for when even the shop's connection drops, for example. How does Q solve the problem of a shopper's data cap running out, or the shop's internet connection being bad? Cash provides a physical token that the shopper and seller can hold on to until they deposit it in the bank. Until we reach the situation where the whole world is blanketed by cheap, reliable, wireless internet, you're going to need cash sometimes.
Just an example. The point is that if you were free to design a payment system from scratch, without worrying about critical mass, you would come up with much smaller and more secure ways to identify an account.
Credit cards aren't that size because they NEED to be that size. They could be much smaller. They're that size because it's a size that is easy to handle. Technologically, they could be a couple cm^2 and the chips and NFC tags would still work. Make them considerably smaller however, and you can easily misplace them or waste time trying to sort them out. It's not a coincidence that they're about the size of a business card.
As for security, chip cards at least are about as secure as a phone can reasonably be (need to know a pin to unlock), and more importantly, don't run out of batteries.
True for some, but not for all. Do you really think that if we were free to reinvent payments, people will be walking around with round pieces of metal in their pockets?
Again, it's a matter of reliability. For example, a CD can theoretically hold on to information for about a decade if I recall correctly. In practice, they're already obsolete. Paper can hold on to information for thousands of years, and won't become obsolete until people stop having eyes. If there's a global catastrophe that knocks down the energy infrastructure, all the information in all our servers will be inaccessible, while all the information in outdated libraries will be perfectly available. Coins have the benefit of being pretty sturdy. A coin will go through the washer in your pocket and be just fine afterwards. Most currencies won't (Canadians I think have some kind of plastic money that can be washed). More importantly, they don't need to be replaced so often, so they have a low maintenance cost compared to paper bills, and they serve as a backup for when the fancy tech fails.
- Then you can build a superior payment network without worrying about adoption.
This is I think where you lose me. It's ok to have a lot of people with Qs, eager to use them. But who is going to accept them? At what exchange rate? Government currencies have the advantage that you have to pay your taxes in them, so everyone needs the currency of their country no matter how crap it is, because if you don't pay taxes you eventually (if you are poor anyway) go to jail. Also, governments enforce that their currency is a valid means of exchange, and kind of force shops to accept it. The other alternative is if you live in a closed community where people ONLY have access to a certain currency, so sellers have to accept it because they can't do business otherwise. See cigarettes in prison, for example.
So what's moving first sellers, who by virtue of being the first have no one to unload them onto for the goods and services they require, to accept Qs?
- When you design a payment system correctly, you can reduce transaction costs to a fraction of what they are today.
What do you think the actual transactions costs for VISA and Mastercard are? And I don't mean what they charge, they charge what they can get away with. I mean their actual costs for having their servers running fraud analysis, routing to banks, and approving or rejecting transactions. Do you have a figure?