I may have just dodged a bullet
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@morbiuswilters said:
@boomzilla said:
There's always a cost, but you need to compare that to the benefits. And of course, the goal is to make a process that more than pays for itself. In the context of this thread, that would be by reducing down time and recovery operations.
Once again, I never stated I had anything against process. What I detest is process that attempts to compensate for outright stupidity. I have never seen that become more valuable than just getting rid of the problem in the first place.
OK, fair enough. I suspect I've (we've?) been conflating the difference between mediocre and real morons. And weeding out / helping the idiots is definitely a benefit to having a good process in place, though not the only, nor even the main benefit.
@morbiuswilters said:
@boomzilla said:
This line of attack is purely from your imagination. I never said anything about meetings or memos. I'm sorry for your poor experience in dead end jobs and the resulting lack of imagination. Frankly, one benefit of a well defined (and effective) process is that it's easier to weed out the true morons, and there's less babysitting required.
That isn't at all what we are talking about here. Re-read the thread. We aren't weeding out the morons; you guys have explicitly said that it is not possible to get rid of the morons and that we must create process to compensate.
Well, this subthread started when you replied to TheCPUWizard, where he talked about incremental improvements to your process. I also stated that it's not just about the morons, but, yes, you shouldn't simply plan to get rid of them all, if for no other reason than that even geniuses have days where they might as well be morons. The process is there in part to guard against human error. I'd expect morons to make more of those, but they do not have a monopoly. So the point was that if you're not creating an appropriate process, then you're less efficient than you could be. And if you're not adapting it as you learn, then, again, you're being less efficient than you need to be.
@morbiuswilters said:
No, you guys are the ones who equated process with bureaucracy. Maybe that's not what you intended, maybe your process is sane, but it's what you stated.
It's certainly not what I intended. What did I (or TheCPUWizard say) that equated process with bureaucracy. I'm not going to assert that the two are mutually exclusive, or even that they always should be, but I don't see where I came anywhere near equating process with bureaucracy.
@morbiuswilters said:
Process should not exist for the sake of curtailing incompetent individuals who have no business in the position they are in. I don't care how much process you have, if a surgeon doesn't know the difference between a liver and a lung I am not going to let him operate on me.
Sure, but are you going to require the guy who takes the scrubs to the laundry to be as smart as the surgeon? I think you're arguing against a position that no one here has taken.
@morbiuswilters said:
Nor would I implement a rule that said all surgeons (including the intelligent ones) must verify the organ they are operating on against a photo in a textbook and have the signoff of 2 other surgeons and at least 1 manager before they cut.
Yeah, that sounds like overkill, but again, I don't think that anything I said leads to this. However, stuff like (mentioned by El Heffe in another thread) the surgeon signing his name on the leg he's going to operate on makes sense. Or counting the number of sponges and other instruments before closing the incision. These are the sorts of errors that even very smart and dedicated people can make, but there are simple things that can reduce their occurrence.
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@boomzilla said:
Sure, but are you going to require the guy who takes the scrubs to the laundry to be as smart as the surgeon? I think you're arguing against a position that no one here has taken.
No, but in my analogy the surgeon is the software engineer or sysadmin. The guy doing the scrubs is tech support. Maybe he's a moron, but he also shouldn't have the privileges to cut someone open.
@boomzilla said:
However, stuff like (mentioned by El Heffe in another thread) the surgeon signing his name on the leg he's going to operate on makes sense. Or counting the number of sponges and other instruments before closing the incision. These are the sorts of errors that even very smart and dedicated people can make, but there are simple things that can reduce their occurrence.
I agree and it seems like our positions are probably reasonably close to each other. Like I said: process is to protect against errors made by otherwise smart people, not errors made by error-prone people. I should also point out that all processes will inevitably fail at some point, so it's better to have the person behind the wheel capable of thinking on their feet.
Also, I questioned the whole leg-signing thing in that thread. How is a surgeon going to be less likely to sign the wrong leg than operate on the wrong leg? Counting sponges is good, but what if you count incorrectly? Those are both things that should be independently verified by two people. Of course, it does you no good if the person who wrote the chart fucked up, so I imagine best practice would be to confirm with the patient before cutting.
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@morbiuswilters said:
Also, I questioned the whole leg-signing thing in that thread. How is a surgeon going to be less likely to sign the wrong leg than operate on the wrong leg?
I assumed that the surgeon signed the leg while the patient was conscious. So if the patient gets that wrong, too, then at least the doc has probably insulated himself from some legal trouble.
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@boomzilla said:
@morbiuswilters said:
Also, I questioned the whole leg-signing thing in that thread. How is a surgeon going to be less likely to sign the wrong leg than operate on the wrong leg?
I assumed that the surgeon signed the leg while the patient was conscious. So if the patient gets that wrong, too, then at least the doc has probably insulated himself from some legal trouble.
Maybe the patient thought that the surgeon was signing the good leg to differentiate it from the bad one
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@morbiuswilters said:
Am I wearing a tweed jacket with leather patches? No? Then I'm not your fucking teacher.
Didn't say you were, but I've made the assumption that the group of people working with me form some kind of team, and I can either synergise with that team for the greater good or stick my heels in and be selfish. Nobody is created equal; if I can get greater results by teaching others how to do the same job then that's a course of action I'll explore.
@morbiuswilters said:
I'm more than happy to impart knowledge but I'll be damned if I'm going to take someone who knows nothing and teach them from the ground up.
Are you making the assumption that the others in the team are starting from zero knowledge? I'm not... but without further information forthcoming in the situation described by Anketam, both of us could be wrong.
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@boomzilla said:
@morbiuswilters said:
Also, I questioned the whole leg-signing thing in that thread. How is a surgeon going to be less likely to sign the wrong leg than operate on the wrong leg?
I assumed that the surgeon signed the leg while the patient was conscious. So if the patient gets that wrong, too, then at least the doc has probably insulated himself from some legal trouble.
That's better, but I still hope a surgeon can tell the bad leg from the good one. Also, what do you do if the patient is retarded? Or nuts? Asking the patient is fine but you still need to apply good judgment.
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@Jaime said:
By simultaneously adding some talent back to the pool and showing these two that screwing up gets people hired above them instead of promoting them and hiring under them, a strong message can be sent. On the other hand, if the new hires don't work out, then I'm probably out.
Good luck with the first bit, and coping with a "them v us" culture that could develop in the interim. With any luck you could stem the flow, but from what you mentioned earlier concerning the observational powers of management, you may still be looking for a way out - which may not necessarily be a bad thing. Rats and sinking ships, etc.
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@Cassidy said:
Didn't say you were, but I've made the assumption that the group of people working with me form some kind of team, and I can either synergise with that team for the greater good or stick my heels in and be selfish.
Teams can be great; teams can also run a train on you. If I find myself on a team of idiots my solution isn't to Pull Together to Win The Big Game via a Training Montage, it's to get as far away from those idiots as possible so my good name isn't sullied when they inevitably fail.
@Cassidy said:
Are you making the assumption that the others in the team are starting from zero knowledge? I'm not... but without further information forthcoming in the situation described by Anketam, both of us could be wrong.
The amount of knowledge isn't the entire issue. There are some people (intelligent, attentive, compulsive in learning) I will gladly teach all kinds of things to. There are others I wouldn't lift a goddamn finger to help because it's a waste of my time.
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@Cassidy said:
@morbiuswilters said:
I will decline to provide more information, since it was not intended to have the amount of depth that either of you two have associated with it.Am I wearing a tweed jacket with leather patches? No? Then I'm not your fucking teacher.
Didn't say you were, but I've made the assumption that the group of people working with me form some kind of team, and I can either synergise with that team for the greater good or stick my heels in and be selfish. Nobody is created equal; if I can get greater results by teaching others how to do the same job then that's a course of action I'll explore.
@morbiuswilters said:
I'm more than happy to impart knowledge but I'll be damned if I'm going to take someone who knows nothing and teach them from the ground up.
Are you making the assumption that the others in the team are starting from zero knowledge? I'm not... but without further information forthcoming in the situation described by Anketam, both of us could be wrong.
I refer you to this diagram (I wont be evil and give you the link to the article):
[Fixed your hot-linked-ass image. -ShadowMod]
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@Anketam said:
I wont be evil and give you the link to the article
I will. [url]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsJesusInPurgatory[/url].
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@Spectre said:
Filed under: TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life
Already has. I read like 5 sentences and my opinion of humanity went from "mostly harmless" to "a cancer that needs to be annihilated before it can spread". So I guess I'm a genocidist now. Thanks TVTropes.
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On a flimsy-related but somewhat appropriate derail... I just finished Dexter Season 6, and the ending was utterly fantastic.
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@Cassidy said:
On a flimsy-related but somewhat appropriate derail... I just finished Dexter Season 6, and the ending was utterly fantastic.
Wah, stop threadjacking!! This is a thread about bullets (and possibly the dodging of said bullets). If you want to discuss Dexter you'll just have to wait until someone makes a thread about serial killer TV shows.
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@morbiuswilters said:
Wah, stop threadjacking!! This is a thread about bullets (and possibly the dodging of said bullets).
I know, I just thought I'd get my $35 in whilst we were wibbling about Chuck Norris.
He eats MORE than 2 cheeseburgers a day, you know.
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@Cassidy said:
He eats MORE than 2 cheeseburgers a day, you know.
Chuck Norris doesn't eat cheeseburgers, cheeseburgers eat Chuck Norr--
No, shit, that doesn't work.
Nobody expects the Chuck Norris. His three weapons are cheeseburgers, electric car batteries, mysqldump and nuisance lawsui--
Amongst his weaponry are--I'll come in again..
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@morbiuswilters said:
@Cassidy said:
On a flimsy-related but somewhat appropriate derail... I just finished Dexter Season 6, and the ending was utterly fantastic.
Wah, stop threadjacking!! This is a thread about bullets (and possibly the dodging of said bullets). If you want to discuss Dexter you'll just have to wait until someone makes a thread about serial killer TV shows.
I got a bullet in my Dodge in 1980....seriously, on the Palmetto Expressway in Florida, a "stray" during the Liberty City Race Riots. Scared the ..... out of me.
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@TheCPUWizard said:
I got a bullet in my Dodge in 1980
Wasn't alive then.
@TheCPUWizard said:
Liberty City Race Riots
You are making that up. Liberty City is from a video game and does not exist in real life.
Also: whatever happened to race riots? By the time I was old enough to appreciate 'em we stopped having 'em. I want a chance go out and burn some shit down in the name of one of those races that people forget about, like the Inuit. They may have 47 words for snow but they only have 1 word for looting: looting. I've even got my stirring, street corner speech all worked up: "Fellow Inuit, rise up! The white man and the chocolate man and the Me'hican are conspiring to put our people on an ice floe and push us out to sea! We will not be silenced; they will hear our chants all the way up in the President's igloo! Unite!"
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@Cassidy said:
On a flimsy-related but somewhat appropriate derail... I just finished Dexter Season 6, and the ending was utterly fantastic.
I just watched episode 1, and am hooked, and I will tear you a new, or larger, arsehole with my crowbar if you divulge any spoilers.
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@dhromed said:
@Cassidy said:
On a flimsy-related but somewhat appropriate derail... I just finished Dexter Season 6, and the ending was utterly fantastic.
I just watched episode 1, and am hooked, and I will tear you a new, or larger, arsehole with my crowbar if you divulge any spoilers.
Dexter kills Dumbledore. With his sled, which is named Rosebud.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@dhromed said:
I was going to tell him that Dexter dies at the end of season 2, and his little brother takes his place and assumes his name, but making stuff up works too.
Dexter kills Dumbledore. With his sled, which is named Rosebud.@Cassidy said:
On a flimsy-related but somewhat appropriate derail... I just finished Dexter Season 6, and the ending was utterly fantastic.
I just watched episode 1, and am hooked, and I will tear you a new, or larger, arsehole with my crowbar if you divulge any spoilers.
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@dhromed said:
I just watched episode 1, and am hooked
S6 or S1?
@dhromed said:
and I will tear you a new, or larger, arsehole with my crowbar if you divulge any spoilers.
You know I'll not be able to clench as tightly after that?
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@morbiuswilters said:
@TheCPUWizard said:
I got a bullet in my Dodge in 1980
Wasn't alive then.
@TheCPUWizard said:
Liberty City Race Riots
You are making that up. Liberty City is from a video game and does not exist in real life.
1) You "kids"...I had been aprogramming for nearly 8 years at the time, was married and had a kid...
2) I wish... It was actually quite a mess... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW8Ybu-2-IM
The verdict resulted in opponents going into the Miami streets; approximately 5,000 people attended a protest at the Downtown Miami Metro Justice Building. By 6:00 pm, the protest had turned into a riot; three people were killed and at least 23 injured, with several of those in critical condition.
The Florida governor Bob Graham ordered 500 National Guard troops into the area; despite his doubling their number the next day, the riot continued. Twelve more people were killed and 165 were injured as violence spread to the Black Grove, Overtown, Liberty City, and Brownsville sections of the city. In addition, fires, burglaries, and looting increased, with police reluctant to enter some areas due to sniper fire.
By the third day, the violence declined as the city imposed an 8 pm to 6 am curfew, coupled with a temporary ban on the sale of firearms and liquor. Graham sent in an additional 2,500 National Guardsmen to the 1,000 already in the city.
Local police barricaded parts of Coconut Grove to warn motorists away from the area. Drivers reported having rocks thrown at them. The city came to a standstill as smoke billowed from areas on fire. Reports of sniper fire at freeway drivers also stopped traffic until the guards could restore order.
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@TheCPUWizard said:
...coupled with a temporary ban on the sale of firearms and liquor.
I'm kind of surprised that worked. The theory here being that people were running to the stores to load up on guns and booze to keep the riot going. Are people really that insane? Wait, I know the answer..
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@TheCPUWizard said:
By the third day, the violence declined as the city imposed an 8 pm to 6 am curfew, coupled with a temporary ban on the sale of firearms and liquor.
I think in most/many areas of the US, that would cause riots.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@TheCPUWizard said:
...coupled with a temporary ban on the sale of firearms and liquor.
I'm kind of surprised that worked. The theory here being that people were running to the stores to load up on guns and booze to keep the riot going. Are people really that insane? Wait, I know the answer..
It did stop the "sale", instead stores were looted and burned. By my best guess, it took that area neary 10 years to even patially recover from the complete insanity of that week.
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@TheCPUWizard said:
It did stop the "sale", instead stores were looted and burned. By my best guess, it took that area neary 10 years to even patially recover from the complete insanity of that week.
The best thing about rioting is that the rioters ultimately harm themselves the most.
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@boomzilla said:
@TheCPUWizard said:
It *did* stop the "sale", instead stores were looted and burned. By my best guess, it took that area neary 10 years to even patially recover from the complete insanity of that week.
The best thing about rioting is that the rioters ultimately harm themselves the most.
Sometimes, but I worked with a few people who left town as soon as the trouble started. One had his house burned down, and one had her husbands business looted (and ended up going out of business).
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@morbiuswilters said:
Liberty City is from a video game and does not exist in real life.
32°34'52"N, 85°44'57"W
32°02'52"N, 81°08'15"W
32°26'44"N, 94°56'55"W
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@da Doctah said:
32°34'52"N, 85°44'57"W
32°02'52"N, 81°08'15"W
32°26'44"N, 94°56'55"W
Perhaps...morbiuswilters is from a video game and does not exist in real life....
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@TheCPUWizard said:
1) You "kids"...I had been aprogramming for nearly 8 years at the time, was married and had a kid...
2) I wish... It was actually quite a mess... Liberty City / Miami Beach Riots Part 1 – 09:35
— libertycityriotsI don't remember those riots (around 1980 I was discovering girls. Hell... Morbs could be my son!) but I remember the Rodney King stuff - and that sounds like a similar situation.
Dunno if you Merikuns know, but we had our Rodney/Arthur McDuffiein UK last year in the form of Mark Duggan. Circumstances were different; he was a known thug and gun runner, shot dead by police (but not filmed)... but the emerging protest escalated into riots.
@boomzilla said:
The best thing about rioting is that the rioters ultimately harm themselves the most.
What? That's bollocks. There are many innocents caught up in the rioters frenzy, being injured in the process, and increased casualties will cause a drain on the health service by diverting resources that could be used elsewhere.
Then there's the cost to business, not just in lost sales but in repairs and replenishment. Outside trade reliant upon the hot zone will also suffer, either from
deliveries not being made to the zone, supplies not coming through from zoned vendors, and transport links that cross the zone once it becomes a no-go area.Insurance claims will begin to add premiums to new policies for people using that same company. People up and down the country will be affected in some way by it - the magnitude will differ, certainly, but don't believe for one minute that the most harm is limited to only the miscreants themselves.
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@Cassidy said:
@boomzilla said:
The best thing about rioting is that the rioters ultimately harm themselves the most.
What? That's bollocks. There are many innocents caught up in the rioters frenzy, being injured in the process, and increased casualties will cause a drain on the health service by diverting resources that could be used elsewhere.OK, failed snark...Yes, obviously lots of people lose stuff, including lives.
But compare the typical business owners vs race rioters. The business folk probably have some resources, or at least motivation. They'll likely recover, even if they aren't as well off if the riots hadn't happened. They may simply go somewhere else. But the rioters were already poor, and they've just burnt down their homes and the local businesses. After that, no one is going to be terribly interested in rebuilding for them, or serving them, and they don't have the wherewithal to relocate. Their immediate welfare is hurt, and it's probably damaged future generation's, too.
And then people like Michele Obama lecture us about "food ghettos." So in the end, we all lose.
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@boomzilla said:
But the rioters were already poor, and they've just burnt down their homes and the local businesses. After that, no one is going to be terribly interested in rebuilding for them, or serving them, and they don't have the wherewithal to relocate.
Firstly, that's making the assumption that those participating in the riot live in the same catchment area as the riot zone. For the most part, this is probably correct, but we had a situation here in UK where [anarchists | rioters | destructive fucktards] were travelling to the scene of a "demonstration" with the intent to actively participate in the riot.
Police surveillance often spot known "professional troublemakers" that regularly appear at demonstrations, huntsabs, etc - they're not buying into the ideology of the protest, they're just there to create trouble and have some fun against those Oppressive Fascist Filth[1] and enjoy the opportunity to rebel against the smug aristocracy. Usually they get arrested, processed, cautioned, released and enjoy a field day in the local lefty paper or a morning on Rikki Lake when they can recount their brave struggle against the Evil Empire. Self-serving twunts, the lot of them - and we tolerate it.
Secondly, let's take the situation where rioters DO live in the region. Yes, they've destroyed the local commerce which means a reduction in local supplies - vendors may not take the risk of setting up shop in such a volatile area. Where does that leave the local populace? For the non-rioters, they've lost out and can ill-afford to relocate, so may end up living off state handouts. For the rioters, they'll obtain supplies some way or another - if not from reduced numbers of shopping outlets, they'll turn to breaking into establishments that do contain such supplies as a result of those occupants having the resources to transports them in from further afield. Which then causes a drain on local spending for higher policing - money that could have gone into expansion and adding value to the area (benefiting all locals) is flitted away on means that prevent value reduction in the area - crime prevention.
The upshot is that everyone stands to lose out, in some way or another. I'd love it if those responsible for creating the situation were adversely affected by it, but the sad truth is that the impact is much greater and the effects much longer-term than just rioters and their riot.
[1] Coppers, or Five-Oh for you Merikunz.
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@Cassidy said:
Firstly, that's making the assumption that those participating in the riot live in the same catchment area as the riot zone. For the most part, this is probably correct, but we had a situation here in UK where [anarchists | rioters | destructive fucktards] were travelling to the scene of a "demonstration" with the intent to actively participate in the riot.
Yes, that's generally the case in race riots, where the rioters are already the local poor people.
@Cassidy said:
Oppressive Fascist Filth[1][1] Coppers, or Five-Oh for you Merikunz.
Funny, the professional troublemakers always struck me as more fascist. Though I suppose their oppression is more aspirational than actual.
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@boomzilla said:
Funny, the professional troublemakers always struck me as more fascist. Though I suppose their oppression is more aspirational than actual.
There's a point at which you realise you're no longer stickin' it to "the man" because.. you are The Man.
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@Cassidy said:
Rikki Lake
Whoa, she's still around? I used to watch her in the mid-90s.. she was like a far-less-interesting Jerry Springer.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@Cassidy said:
Rikki Lake
Whoa, she's still around? I used to watch her in the mid-90s.. she was like a far-less-interesting Jerry Springer.
She's possibly around, I ain't sure.
I think "Jeremy Kyle" is the current magnet for attention-seeking self-centred lowlifes. DaytimeTV is not something I'm overly familiar with.
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@morbiuswilters said:
@Cassidy said:
[1] Coppers, or Five-Oh for you Merikunz.
Fuzz, po-po, pigs, rollers..
Staties.
