Sometimes I'm forced to agree with Blakey
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@Weng said:
I seem to recall having to look around to figure out how to make it fucking play music, and giving up before I figured out how to make a playlist.
?
Add shit to the playlist. Play it. What mangled sequence of actions led you to the dead end you describe?
I moved to foobar from winamp because foobar supports multiple playlists at the same time in tabs, creating & scrapping them easily and with nary a thought, which I find necessary.Don't really use the library, even though the available viewers are superior to Winamp's own library UI.
The UI is quite a bit better, if only because it uses default Windows widgets, and the customizability is excellent. I stepped away form skinned media players after realising that you never look at it.
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@Iago said:
when you put an entry in Microsoft or Apple's bug trac--OH WAIT YOU CAN'T
Trolling blakey? https://connect.microsoft.com/ says it's that, or just another ignorant fanboy.
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@Weng said:
Through the godfuckdamn roof if it's the same as when I last used it.
There was a UI change between 0.9.4 and 0.9.5.
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Two points:
1) I can't speak for Apple, but if the Microsoft product has a Connect site, you can submit bugs and, from my experience, they are handled correctly. (I have gotten a multi-monitor bug in SQL Server Studio fixed thus way.) Try it before you knock it.
2) It only bothers me when a project invites the public to submit bugs and then ignores them. If the project doesn't ask for help with bugs on the first place (as I imagine Apple does), then you just have to take it or leave it.
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@MascarponeRun said:
@Iago said:
when you put an entry in Microsoft or Apple's bug trac--OH WAIT YOU CAN'T
Trolling blakey? https://connect.microsoft.com/ says it's that, or just another ignorant fanboy.
According to that page, Microsoft has "53 products currently accepting bugs". However, if you look at the list you see that there are a total of 7 bugs submitted this year. and 13 for all of 2010. So out of 53 products, there have been a grand total of 20 bugs submitted in 2 years. Really? Seriously? So you are partially correct, a person can submit a bug for a certain limited subset of products. But realistically, if you have a problem, you are SOL.
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@blakeyrat said:
1) I can't speak for Apple, but if the Microsoft product has a Connect site, you can submit bugs and, from my experience, they are handled correctly. (I have gotten a multi-monitor bug in SQL Server Studio fixed thus way.) Try it before you knock it.
My understanding, from reading slashdot headlines (!) is that Apple bans you from their forums in exchange for reporting problems.
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@El_Heffe said:
According to that page, Microsoft has "53 products currently accepting bugs". However, if you look at the list you see that there are a total of 7 bugs submitted this year. and 13 for all of 2010. So out of 53 products, there have been a grand total of 20 bugs submitted in 2 years. Really? Seriously?
I wager it's much more likely you're seeing a bug in the Connect website. The sidebar even says "128,067 bugs fixed to date", which doesn't jibe with your numbers at all. (I can't tell what page you're getting those numbers from...?)
Anyway, the real point is: you can submit bugs to Microsoft, the bugs are likely to get fixed, and Iago is just a mouthpiece spreading "facts" he didn't bother to verify. Whether it's 20 bugs or 128,067.
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@Lorne Kates said:
I've been using winamp since I had a 486 and spent twenty hours downloading a single mp3. (That mp3 was Download Time Exaggeration by the Pedantic Dickweeds, just so you know).
"Download Time Exaggeration" was only performed by the Pedantic Dickweeds; it was written by Hugh Sless-Technicality.
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@El_Heffe said:
However, if you look at the list you see that there are a total of 7 bugs submitted this year. and 13 for all of 2010.
Not sure what you think you're looking at, but I note that there were 7 new products added to the list of programs accepting bugs this year so far, and 13 added last year, which seems remarkably coincidental when that's the most easily accessible list you might have been looking at.
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@Scarlet Manuka said:
@dcardani said:
It would be nice if the app could make that assumption, but it can't because many companies do stupid shit like removing features from later versions of their products. So you have CD Ripper 1.0 plug-in, and it automatically upgrades you to CD Ripper 2.0, which it turns out is no longer free, and you have to pay for after 30 days, and now you can't rip CDs anymore.
I don't see how asking you at upgrade time helps, though. If all you see is "CD Ripper 1.0 has been disabled, I found CD Ripper 2.0 which is compatible, do you want to upgrade?" aren't you just going to press "OK"?Because there might be a chance some users have actually read that CD Ripper 2.0 disables functions you use and at least those users could choose not to upgrade it. Typical users will do typical things like just press "OK".
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@MascarponeRun said:
@Iago said:
when you put an entry in Microsoft or Apple's bug trac--OH WAIT YOU CAN'T
Trolling blakey? https://connect.microsoft.com/ says it's that, or just another ignorant fanboy.
Also, http://bugreport.apple.com/, FYI.
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@MascarponeRun said:
since there doesn't seem to be a simple set of guidelines to follow
Try this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx
(or this http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=4249 for XP and 2000).
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@delta534 said:
@Weng said:
It was probably circa 2003 when I tried to use it.Through the godfuckdamn roof if it's the same as when I last used it.
There was a UI change between 0.9.4 and 0.9.5.
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@Weng said:
Then you used the older UI. Foobar2000 0.9.5 was released late 2007, early 2008.@delta534 said:
@Weng said:
It was probably circa 2003 when I tried to use it.Through the godfuckdamn roof if it's the same as when I last used it.
There was a UI change between 0.9.4 and 0.9.5.
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@Cad Delworth said:
@MascarponeRun said:
since there doesn't seem to be a simple set of guidelines to follow
Try this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa511258.aspx
(or this http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=4249 for XP and 2000).Useful stuff, but not quite what I meant. The UI design I do is so basic that much of that doesn't apply, and most of what does apply is obvious even to a simpleton. The problems I have are ridiculously simple in many ways, and yet probably insoluble to a satisfactory extent due to inherent limitations of the environment. An example's probably easier: I often create Excel sheets which automate a simple repetitive task. There's a single great big button in the middle of an otherwise blank Excel sheet, which when clicked under the right conditions will do stuff. It usually says 'click me' or 'process reports' or something similarly basic. Because it's outside the Windows standard GUI patterns, the button completely fails to grab the attention of users. Hell, I put it there, and my eyes generally track straight past it. It doesn't help that web banner ads have trained us to ignore things which flash bright red...
Now, I know that I could solve these problems by taking an entirely different approach to the whole thing, but that's not really the point. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to say 'ah, the top three places people look first when they open a spreadsheet are X, Y, and Z' and then simply place the button in one of those? Wouldn't it be great if people making a UI could actually know where the right place is to put something to give it the appropriate degree of priority in attracting the users' attention?
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Iago, the fact that it is free software puts it nowhere different in my eyes than commercial software. Sure, if commercial software is crap, that isn't acceptable, since I spent money on it. But that doesn't give carpe diem to the open source community to produce software just as bad, and hide behind "Well, Company Xs software is shit too, so that means our software is good!"
The point is, if you're going to make software, open source or otherwise, do it properly or don't do it at all.
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@Master Chief said:
But that doesn't give [b]carpe diem[/b]
How do you say "Pedantic Dickweed" in Latin?
And what do you call the person who will inevitably critique your translation?
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@Lorne Kates said:
How do you say "Pedantic Dickweed" in Latin?
Putidis penis viriditas?
Just a guess from a year of latin more than a decade ago and some quick googling and translator work...
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@Lorne Kates said:
@Master Chief said:
But that doesn't give carpe diem
How do you say "Pedantic Dickweed" in Latin?
And what do you call the person who will inevitably critique your translation?
Argh. I meant carte blanche. I was typing on a phone in the DMV having been up since 2 am for work. Sue me.
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@Master Chief said:
@Lorne Kates said:
@Master Chief said:
But that doesn't give carpe diem
How do you say "Pedantic Dickweed" in Latin?
And what do you call the person who will inevitably critique your translation?
Argh. I meant carte blanche. I was typing on a phone in the DMV having been up since 2 am for work. Sue me.
Good idea! A lawyer would know how to say Pedantic Dickweek in Latin.
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@Weng said:
It was probably circa 2003 when I tried to use it.
Oh, that was when it still looked just like Notepad (with a slightly different menubar).
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@blakeyrat said:
But not for either the Windows OS or any part of the Office suite, which are the two most important and most widely-used bits of software they produce. Those are rather serious omissions IMO that make the whole thing look like a pretty token gesture.Anyway, the real point is: you can submit bugs to Microsoft,
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@DaveK said:
Have you ever actually run across a proper bug in a modern version of either Windows or Office? I've done far too much support, and I certainly don't remember running across anything I'd consider an MS bug. There may have been one or two minor ones I'm forgetting, but I don't think so. Lots of problems with third-party add-ons, quite a few with configuration problems (of which subset, many were a bit of a WTF), but few bugs. There is the occasional well-known one, but generally MS products do what they're designed to do - even if the designed behaviour is odd.@blakeyrat said:
But not for either the Windows OS or any part of the Office suite, which are the two most important and most widely-used bits of software they produce. Those are rather serious omissions IMO that make the whole thing look like a pretty token gesture.Anyway, the real point is: you can submit bugs to Microsoft,
In any case, if you have MS support - which most commercial users do - then if your problem can't be resolved, a bug will be raised.
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@MascarponeRun said:
Have you ever actually run across a proper bug in a modern version of either Windows or Office?
Are you joking? Explorer.exe (a tiny portion of Windows) has tons of bugs. I mean shit, I'm sitting at a Mac right now, and just off the top of my head:
) Doesn't correctly calculate disk space in folders with NTFS reparse points. (I mean: if you sort a parent folder that has 3 reparse points to the same file, that file is counted 3 times when calculated size. This is why people think their WinSXS folder is so huge, when it's really not.)
) Explorer will sometimes (often, when running on slow network drives) decide to re-sort files while the user is renaming a file. When this happens, the text the user entered gets erased, resulting in a bad rename if the user wasn't looking at the screen.
*) Explorer only saves desktop icon positions on a successful exit, meaning your icons will reset to their last position if Explorer or your computer crashes. Instead, it should regularly save icon positions. (This also frequently happens on reboot, but AFAICT only if rebooting from a Windows Update...)If you're not finding bugs in Explorer, I can only assume you're a Java UI programmer. Or maybe a Lotus Notes developer, but those are practically the same thing...
And anyway, the point remains: you can report bugs to Microsoft. Linux users who say otherwise are spreading lies.
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@blakeyrat said:
*) Doesn't correctly calculate disk space in folders with NTFS reparse points. (I mean: if you sort a parent folder that has 3 reparse points to the same file, that file is counted 3 times when calculated size. This is why people think their WinSXS folder is so huge, when it's really not.)
If I remember rightly, Microsoft claim it's not a bug, it's by design. Stupid design is not the same as a bug, in my book, but in any case if I remember rightly they had some moderately logical justification. Someone with better google-fu than me may be able to dig it up.@blakeyrat said:
*) Explorer will sometimes (often, when running on slow network drives) decide to re-sort files while the user is renaming a file. When this happens, the text the user entered gets erased, resulting in a bad rename if the user wasn't looking at the screen.
I've never run across that one, but again, not strictily speaking a bug. It's really stupid to design the system to automatically re-sort things during a rename operation, but it's the design. Not like the code doesn't do what it's supposed to do.@blakeyrat said:
*) Explorer only saves desktop icon positions on a successful exit, meaning your icons will reset to their last position if Explorer or your computer crashes. Instead, it should regularly save icon positions.
Aside from the fact that I disagree with you about what the behaviour should be - this makes no sense unless all profile settings are updated to the same schedule - once again, it's the specified behaviour.Maybe my definition of a bug is wrong, but it seems to me that, to go back to the original example, no-one decided 'oh, it's fine if a hanging USB drive crashes the wireless networking' - it was an unforeseen effect of poor code.
[Edit: some thread confusion going on there, but you get my drift. I was, of course, referring to this thread.
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@blakeyrat said:
@MascarponeRun said:
Not in Explorer you can't. Nor, as mentioned before, in the OS kernel or Office. Nor in Internet Explorer, nor in Windows Media Player. Not even in Solitaire!Have you ever actually run across a proper bug in a modern version of either Windows or Office?
Are you joking? Explorer.exe (a tiny portion of Windows) has tons of bugs. [ ... ]
If you're not finding bugs in Explorer, I can only assume you're a Java UI programmer. Or maybe a Lotus Notes developer, but those are practically the same thing...
And anyway, the point remains: you can report bugs to Microsoft.
@blakeyrat said:
Linux users who say otherwise are spreading lies.
They're just simplifying. You can't report bugs in 99% of all Microsoft products. The site is a sham of actually providing support.
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@MascarponeRun said:
If I remember rightly, Microsoft claim it's not a bug, it's by design.
Well, it's a complex problem. The size of the file depends on the parent folder structure, and with reparse points sometimes those aren't very hierarchical. Still I highly, highly doubt that's "by design", it might be "not worth fixing", but definitely not "by design".
@MascarponeRun said:
@blakeyrat said:
*) Explorer will sometimes (often, when running on slow network drives) decide to re-sort files while the user is renaming a file. When this happens, the text the user entered gets erased, resulting in a bad rename if the user wasn't looking at the screen.
I've never run across that one, but again, not strictily speaking a bug.In what universe is that not a bug?
@MascarponeRun said:
It's really stupid to design the system to automatically re-sort things during a rename operation, but it's the design. Not like the code doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
You're honestly arguing that there's a bulletpoint in Explorer's design document saying:
*) Piss off our users by visually indicating they can rename a file, and then stomping all over their typing by resetting the original name halfway through.Christ.
@MascarponeRun said:
Aside from the fact that I disagree with you about what the behaviour should be - this makes no sense unless all profile settings are updated to the same schedule - once again, it's the specified behaviour.
First of all, again, you're arguing that Explorer has a bulletpoint reading:
*) Piss off our users by forgetting all their icon positions at every opportunity@MascarponeRun said:
Maybe my definition of a bug is wrong, but it seems to me that, to go back to the original example, no-one decided 'oh, it's fine if a hanging USB drive crashes the wireless networking' - it was an unforeseen effect of poor code.
Your definition of bug is entirely wrong. Mind-boggling-ly, horribly wrong.
Finding the unintentional problems that arise from poorly-specified software is like 80% of the POINT of QA in the first place. To say "that's not a bug, just a bad spec" misses the point entirely. Hell, a lot of companies do a QA process on their spec before any code is written at all!
Grumble...
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@DaveK said:
They're just simplifying. You can't report bugs in 99% of all Microsoft products. The site is a sham of actually providing support.
Be prepared to accuse me of being a pedantic dickweed! Dickweed comment countdown three... two... one...
He might have intended to say you can't report bugs on Windows or Office. But what he actually said was, "you can't report bugs for any Microsoft products." Which is factually wrong.
Also what does reporting bugs have to do with support? That's two totally different departments. If you pay for it, phone support people can get bugs right up the fucking flagpole and have you a patch the next day.
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@blakeyrat said:
@MascarponeRun said:
If I remember rightly, Microsoft claim it's not a bug, it's by design.
Well, it's a complex problem. The size of the file depends on the parent folder structure, and with reparse points sometimes those aren't very hierarchical. Still I highly, highly doubt that's "by design", it might be "not worth fixing", but definitely not "by design".
Why do you say definitely not by design? From The Old New Thing:
@Raymond Chen said:Computing the size of a directory is more than just adding file sizes
Reparse points
We mentioned this last time. Do you want to recurse into reparse points when you are computing the size of a directory? It depends why you're computing the directory size. If you're computing the size in order to show the user how much disk space they will gain by deleting the directory, then you do or don't, depending on how you're going to delete the reparse point.
If you're computing the size in preparation for copying, then you probably do. Or maybe you don't - should the copy merely copy the reparse point instead of tunneling through it? What do you if the user doesn't have permission to create reparse points? Or if the destination doesn't support reparse points? Or if the user is creating a copy because they are making a back-up?
Based on that, I'd say it was a design decision, because they had to do one or the other.
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@blakeyrat said:
Well, it's a complex problem. The size of the file depends on the parent folder structure, and with reparse points sometimes those aren't very hierarchical. Still I highly, highly doubt that's "by design", it might be "not worth fixing", but definitely not "by design".
Are you sure you're talking about reparse points and not hardlinked files? Due to the way hardlinks work, there is no indication that they're any different from regular files (because they really aren't), and you'd need some expensive checking to determine that two different files actually occupy the same space on disk (which also couldn't help you at all if you only look at eg. WinSxS folder, since the hardlinked files there appear only once - the other links are elsewhere on the filesystem).
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I want the people to know that they still have 2 out of 3 accurate bugs in my report, and that ain't bad.
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@blakeyrat said:
Finding the unintentional problems that arise from poorly-specified software is like 80% of the POINT of QA in the first place. To say "that's not a bug, just a bad spec" misses the point entirely. Hell, a lot of companies do a QA process on their spec before any code is written at all!
I completely agree with you, because you've totally missed the point. Poor design is poor design, but bugs are a result of poor coding. Do you blame the engineer told to make a car out of cream-cheese for the failure?I'm guessing you see no difference between raising a bug, and putting in a change-request, either?
I thought you'd agree with me, since I'm only saying the things you normally say, but it turns out that the opportunity for a bit of point-missing pedantic dickweedery was too good to eschew. The point was, of course, not whether this or that specific thing is a bug or a design-flaw, but that bugs are very rare in Windows. As you've so beautifully demonstrated - and admitted, in one case at least - people tend to call things bugs which are nothing of the kind.
Just so you don't think I was agreeing with the rest, and get the impression I conceded the point, I don't think either of your other examples is a bug either. At best, you can have half a bug:
@blakeyrat said:
In what universe is that not a bug?
@MascarponeRun said:
It's really stupid to design the system to automatically re-sort things during a rename operation, but it's the design. Not like the code doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
You're honestly arguing that there's a bulletpoint in Explorer's design document saying:
*) Piss off our users by visually indicating they can rename a file, and then stomping all over their typing by resetting the original name halfway throughNope. This one is more of a grey area, though, since it's arguable that the failure to spec the behaviour in a sane fashion is a bug, as you say. Not knowing the reasons behind it, though, I have no idea if there's actually a good reason for the design - if it's an oversight, I'll be more likely to count it as a bug.
@blakeyrat said:
Christ.
@MascarponeRun said:
Aside from the fact that I disagree with you about what the behaviour should be - this makes no sense unless all profile settings are updated to the same schedule - once again, it's the specified behaviour.
First of all, again, you're arguing that Explorer has a bulletpoint reading:
*) Piss off our users by forgetting all their icon positions at every opportunityOn this one you're just jabbering. There's no reason why icon positions are different to any other profile setting. You can argue that the designed-in way Windows handles profile settings is not the way you would do it, but there's no suggestion that it's not a perfectly reasonable design choice, correctly implemented. There's nothing wrong with it at all, let alone a bug.
In sum, then, and let's see you try and disagree with this, the ease of bug-reporting for Windows and Office - outside the automatic error-reporting - is entirely in proportion to the frequency with which it is necessary.
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Just an FYI.... *Anyone* can open a support ticket, while you will be charged (either per instance or by having a contract), but if that you are calling about turns out to infact be a bug [not a design issue, or other things, but spicifically a bug where the code does not match documented required behaviour] then the charges will be refunded (or never applied in the first place).
ps: I am not a Microsoft Employee, not affiliated with them in any way, the above is based on direct multiple occurances (only one turned out to be a real bug in the XP Wireless sub-system) and on documented policy (which I last looked at about 18 months ago, but am unaware of any changes)
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@El_Heffe said:
@MascarponeRun said:
@Iago said:
when you put an entry in Microsoft or Apple's bug trac--OH WAIT YOU CAN'T
Trolling blakey? https://connect.microsoft.com/ says it's that, or just another ignorant fanboy.
According to that page, Microsoft has "53 products currently accepting bugs". However, if you look at the list you see that there are a total of 7 products added this year. and 13 for all of 2010. So out of 53 products, there have been a grand total of 20 products added in 2 years. Really? Seriously? So you are partially correct, a person can submit a bug for a certain limited subset of products. But realistically, if you have a problem, you are SOL.
FTFY.
@DaveK said:
@blakeyrat said:
@MascarponeRun said:
Not in Explorer you can't. Nor, as mentioned before, in the OS kernel or Office. Nor in Internet Explorer, nor in Windows Media Player. Not even in Solitaire!Have you ever actually run across a proper bug in a modern version of either Windows or Office?
Are you joking? Explorer.exe (a tiny portion of Windows) has tons of bugs. [ ... ]
If you're not finding bugs in Explorer, I can only assume you're a Java UI programmer. Or maybe a Lotus Notes developer, but those are practically the same thing...
And anyway, the point remains: you can report bugs to Microsoft.
@blakeyrat said:
Linux users who say otherwise are spreading lies.
They're just simplifying. You can't report bugs in 99% of all Microsoft products. The site is a sham of actually providing support.Bull. Fucking. Shit:
@TheCPUWizard said:
Just an FYI.... Anyone can open a support ticket, while you will be charged (either per instance or by having a contract), but if that you are calling about turns out to infact be a bug [not a design issue, or other things, but spicifically a bug where the code does not match documented required behaviour] then the charges will be refunded (or never applied in the first place).
ps: I am not a Microsoft Employee, not affiliated with them in any way, the above is based on direct multiple occurances (only one turned out to be a real bug in the XP Wireless sub-system) and on documented policy (which I last looked at about 18 months ago, but am unaware of any changes)
If it was impossible to submit bug reports to MS as you claim, Raymond Chen's blog wouldn't exist.
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@blakeyrat said:
@DaveK said:
Hey, that's a bit premature of you. Slow down, there's no need to go off half-cocked like that!They're just simplifying. You can't report bugs in 99% of all Microsoft products. The site is a sham of actually providing support.
Be prepared to accuse me of being a pedantic dickweed! Dickweed comment countdown three... two... one...
@blakeyrat said:
He might have intended to say you can't report bugs on Windows or Office. But what he actually said was, "you can't report bugs for any Microsoft products." Which is factually wrong.
So let's have a quick recap, this time with subtitles for the hard-of-thinking:- OP says that you can't report bugs "for any Microsoft products".
- You say that the OP is factually incorrect.
- I suggest that the OP was simplifying.
So far, so good; that's how normal ordinary human conversation works - one person says something, then another responds on the same topic with some new bit of information that advances the conversation, then the next person responds to that and moves the conversation further along. But not you:
- OP says that you can't report bugs "for any Microsoft products".
- You say that the OP is factually incorrect.
- I suggest that the OP was simplifying.
- You mindlessly repeat your previous statement, thereby failing to progress the discussion any at all.
Look, I was listening, I heard you the first time - in fact by suggesting an explanation as to what the OP really meant, I was implicitly acknowledging and agreeing with your observation that their statement was factually incorrect. Suggesting why they were incorrect does not contradict your point, and hence there was no need to repeat yourself. But you did, and so you failed to progress the conversation but instead nearly diverted it into a head-banging circular loop.
So, no, you're not being a pedantic dickweed here. But is being a semi-autistic failure at everyday conversational skills really that much better?
@blakeyrat said:
Also what does reporting bugs have to do with support? That's two totally different departments. If you pay for it, phone support people can get bugs right up the fucking flagpole and have you a patch the next day.
Now you're being pedantic. Let's just remind ourselves what we were talking about here: Iago said@Iago said:
when you put an entry in Microsoft or Apple's bug trac--OH WAIT YOU CAN'T
in response to which MascarponeRun mentioned https://connect.microsoft.com/, in an attempt to demonstrate that MS do in fact have a public bug tracker. Now, in context - remember, you have bear context in mind if you're reading for comprehension - in context, it's perfectly clear for me to claim that that site is a sham effort at providing a public bug tracker, because it won't accept bugs for the vast majority of MS products, and only two or three of the major ones. The fact that there are other methods of getting support from MS is not relevant to the topic of the conversation, which was whether or not MS have a public bug tracker; the fact that that bug tracker is so limited as to be meaningless is. Even if you had forgotten that we were talking about whether the connect site counts as a public bug tracker or not, you could have scrolled back up and refreshed your memory, but you're always going to fail at comprehension if you try and deal with each sentence or sentence fragment in isolation, devoid of any context. It's a shame that you got as far as the word "support", and couldn't remember as far back as the beginning of the sentence where I said "that site" was a sham of it ("it" being support, in case you've already forgotten the beginning of this sentence).Honestly, talking to you is like trying to have a discussion with a goldfish sometimes. Except of course that a goldfish wouldn't deliberately fail to understand just so that it had something to get angry about.
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@The_Assimilator said:
@DaveK said:
Is there something in the water round here, or have you also been infected by Blakey's inability-to-track-context disease?@blakeyrat said:
@MascarponeRun said:
Not in Explorer you can't. Nor, as mentioned before, in the OS kernel or Office. Nor in Internet Explorer, nor in Windows Media Player. Not even in Solitaire!Have you ever actually run across a proper bug in a modern version of either Windows or Office?
Are you joking? Explorer.exe (a tiny portion of Windows) has tons of bugs. [ ... ]
If you're not finding bugs in Explorer, I can only assume you're a Java UI programmer. Or maybe a Lotus Notes developer, but those are practically the same thing...
And anyway, the point remains: you can report bugs to Microsoft.
@blakeyrat said:
Linux users who say otherwise are spreading lies.
They're just simplifying. You can't report bugs in 99% of all Microsoft products. The site is a sham of actually providing support.Bull. Fucking. Shit:
@The_Assimilator said:
@TheCPUWizard said:
What we've got here is a failure to communicate. Exactly how "impossible to submit bug reports to MS" did I claim it to be? Not any at all, actually; what I in fact said was:Just an FYI.... Anyone can open a support ticket, while you will be charged (either per instance or by having a contract), but if that you are calling about turns out to infact be a bug [not a design issue, or other things, but spicifically a bug where the code does not match documented required behaviour] then the charges will be refunded (or never applied in the first place).
ps: I am not a Microsoft Employee, not affiliated with them in any way, the above is based on direct multiple occurances (only one turned out to be a real bug in the XP Wireless sub-system) and on documented policy (which I last looked at about 18 months ago, but am unaware of any changes)
If it was impossible to submit bug reports to MS as you claim, Raymond Chen's blog wouldn't exist.
@DaveK said:
I did not say that it was "impossible to submit bug reports to MS". I said that the site that we were talking about, https://connect.microsoft.com/, was a sham and that you were not able to submit bug reports "in 99% of all Microsoft products" there. I made no mention of other channels or means of support, because that's not what we were talking about - we were talking about whether MS operates a (meaningful) public bug tracker.They're just simplifying. You can't report bugs in 99% of all
Microsoft products. The site is a sham of actually providing support.
