Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?
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So I just read the long-winded story of core-js' single developer, and he used XKCD #2347 to explain his point:
Together with a bunch of statistics he goes on to prove that a ton of popular websites have his JavaScript library somewhere in there as a dependency.
Problem is: real life is catching up and has left him somewhat broken and bankrupt while being stranded in Russia. Apparently he made the ill-fated decision to quit his job, move back to Russia because cost of living is dirt-cheap there, kill two drunkards in a traffic accident and get sent to jail because courts in Russia are a joke. He might be out now, but outstanding reparations to the affected families keep him tied to Russia.
Monetary contributions where already thin on the ground, so he made another mistake in adding a small banner to his npm package which meant that each build on the planet would spam "Hey, my name is X and I could use some help or a job" until people got irrationally mad about it. There was enough of a stink that npm got off their ass and standardized a way to indicate that certain projects are looking for funding (which everybody can promptly ignore). At least it left us with memes like this:
Now money doesn't flow in at all because Russia is under sanctions, and the guy's thinking of somehow setting up a commercial operation.
So... He loves the work he does, it's just the compensation that's the hard part, or as some comment on Reddit said:
The author is now at the point of calling it quits. Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
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@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
how do you help somebody in this situation?
I don't. For starters, it's Javascript...
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@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
If you really want to help, the best thing you could probably do is help him find a paying job.
Other than that, the Redditor has the right of it: FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
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@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
how do you help somebody in this situation?
I don't. I bet he has Z tattooed on his back.
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@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
Or where the way in which developers get paid is something else.
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@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
The author is now at the point of calling it quits. Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
Without wishing to seem unsympathetic, I would say that much of his problem is his own fault. No, I'm not blaming the road accident on him, nor the stuff that followed because of that, but the fact that he spent all those years working for almost free on such an important thing is definitely his fault.
And of course he made the classic error of confusing two words that are conveniently spelled differently in French: libre and gratuit, better known by their clearly distinguished spellings in English: free and free. He even goes so far as to call FOSS "Free Open Source Software" rather than "Free/Open ..." or "Free or Open ....".
So I have limited sympathy for his part in bringing financial ruin on himself.
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@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
If you really want to help, the best thing you could probably do is help him find a paying job.
Other than that, the Redditor has the right of it: FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
Have you heard of Linux?
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Have you heard of Linux?
That hobby project will never displace true UNIX!
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Have you heard of Linux?
You mean that Linux Torvald guy?
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Have you heard of Linux?
I've even heard of .NET, believe it or not.
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@Gern_Blaanston said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Have you heard of Linux?
You mean that Linux Torvald guy?
That Youtube guy with the stupid ear piercing and wearing a beanie?
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@Gern_Blaanston said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Have you heard of Linux?
You mean that Linux Torvald guy?
That Youtube guy with the stupid ear piercing and wearing a beanie?
No, the guy who always carries the blanket around.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@Gern_Blaanston said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Have you heard of Linux?
You mean that Linux Torvald guy?
That Youtube guy with the stupid ear piercing and wearing a beanie?
Tbh, he’s kinda cute.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
free
Gratuitous?
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
If you really want to help, the best thing you could probably do is help him find a paying job.
Other than that, the Redditor has the right of it: FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
Have you heard of Linux?
For years now, the major contributors for Linux have been on the payroll of companies profiting from it in some way. Hardware vendors wishing to flog their wares write drivers, and so on.
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@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
If you really want to help, the best thing you could probably do is help him find a paying job.
Other than that, the Redditor has the right of it: FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
Have you heard of Linux?
For years now, the major contributors for Linux have been on the payroll of companies profiting from it in some way. Hardware vendors wishing to flog their wares write drivers, and so on.
Yes. It’s still FOSS and people are getting paid to develop it.
That was literally the point.
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
If you really want to help, the best thing you could probably do is help him find a paying job.
Other than that, the Redditor has the right of it: FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
Have you heard of Linux?
For years now, the major contributors for Linux have been on the payroll of companies profiting from it in some way. Hardware vendors wishing to flog their wares write drivers, and so on.
Yes. It’s still FOSS and people are getting paid to develop it.
That was literally the point.Is it really "free" if the companies are building it up in hopes of profits?
Bit of a philosophical question, isn't it? It might be free for someone who installs Linux on a computer that came with Windows. But that could be considered a marketing expense. The same way some games are "free" if you ignore the in-game purchases and other monetization.
But you ask an open question like that and don't expect anyone here to answer? Did you join yesterday? If so, welcome to TDWTF!
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@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
If you really want to help, the best thing you could probably do is help him find a paying job.
Other than that, the Redditor has the right of it: FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
Have you heard of Linux?
For years now, the major contributors for Linux have been on the payroll of companies profiting from it in some way. Hardware vendors wishing to flog their wares write drivers, and so on.
Yes. It’s still FOSS and people are getting paid to develop it.
That was literally the point.Is it really "free" if the companies are building it up in hopes of profits?
Bit of a philosophical question, isn't it?
What? People using ambiguous language?
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@boomzilla said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
What? People using ambiguous language?
"Free" has evidently been abused by marketing for so long that people are trying to come up with replacements. But if it's known to be a marketing-adjacent word with heavy context dependency, can it still be considered ambiguous?
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Ah, yes, the honeypot of commercial FOSS. Yes, you can use this for free but when you inevitably get stuck on an issue we got some nice support to sell you~
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@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@boomzilla said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
What? People using ambiguous language?
"Free" has evidently been abused by marketing for so long that people are trying to come up with replacements. But if it's known to be a marketing-adjacent word with heavy context dependency, can it still be considered ambiguous?
I am pretty sure that the English-specific confusion of "freedom" vs "no payment" predates the rise of modern marketing.
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@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@boomzilla said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
What? People using ambiguous language?
"Free" has evidently been abused by marketing for so long that people are trying to come up with replacements. But if it's known to be a marketing-adjacent word with heavy context dependency, can it still be considered ambiguous?
Well, you were just now trying to use it with the wrong meaning.
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@boomzilla said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Well, you were just now trying to use it with the wrong meaning.
Frankly, neither of the meanings is particularly safe.
"Free as in beer" gets you all sort of nasty things along the lines of "bad money forcing out the good" (the free tool is just good enough to drive out the paid competition, but overall worse if we ignore the price.)
"Free as in speech," on the other hand, is one of those phrases that should make you check your wallet (metaphorically speaking.) If someone is placing undue emphasis on "freedom", chances are he's trying to con you.
In any case, given that the main "freedom" in FOSS is, ostensibly, freedom to roll your own, I'm not sure I see that much benefit.
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@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
In any case, given that the main "freedom" in FOSS is, ostensibly, freedom to roll your own, I'm not sure I see that much benefit.
Disagree. It allows multiple organizations to collaborate. That definitely seems to be a benefit for big projects like Linux. And it also allows companies to provide their own distros.
Not a panacea but not nothing either.
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@boomzilla I see your point, and further contrarianism seems like too much effort.
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@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@acrow said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@GOG said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@JBert said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Tragic as it is, how do you help somebody in this situation?
If you really want to help, the best thing you could probably do is help him find a paying job.
Other than that, the Redditor has the right of it: FOSS is and always was a really dumb idea for anything other than hobby projects.
Have you heard of Linux?
For years now, the major contributors for Linux have been on the payroll of companies profiting from it in some way. Hardware vendors wishing to flog their wares write drivers, and so on.
Yes. It’s still FOSS and people are getting paid to develop it.
That was literally the point.Is it really "free" if the companies are building it up in hopes of profits?
Bit of a philosophical question, isn't it? It might be free for someone who installs Linux on a computer that came with Windows. But that could be considered a marketing expense. The same way some games are "free" if you ignore the in-game purchases and other monetization.
But you ask an open question like that and don't expect anyone here to answer? Did you join yesterday? If so, welcome to TDWTF!
FOSS means “free open source software”.
For the end user, it is both “gratis” in that it doesn’t cost anything, as well as “libre”, in that if your printer is being retarded and full of bugs, you (or someone you hire) can fix it. (Literally what caused RMS to create the FOSS movement)None of that prevents companies to commercialize the results or to pay developers, and it was never supposed to.
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Literally what caused RMS to create the FOSS movement
Then it can be considered a dismal failure. Several decades later, printers are still retarded.
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@Zerosquare said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Literally what caused RMS to create the FOSS movement
Then it can be considered a dismal failure. Several decades later, printers are still retarded.
But if they were free software, I’d immediately remove the following code:
if (cyan_cartridge_empty()) refuse_printing_bw_document();
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if (cyan_cartridge
_empty().qtyPct < 0.5) {
refuse_printing_bw_document();
refuse_scanning();
refuse_control_panel();
}FTFHP
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@The_Quiet_One you should file a defect
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
That Youtube guy with the stupid ear piercing
My ear (seen here in a picture from six months ago : https://i.imgur.com/DX1FXRV.jpg) would dearly love to know what exactly is wrong with ear piercings.
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@The_Quiet_One said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
if (cyan_cartridge
_empty().qtyPct < 0.5) {
refuse_printing_bw_document();
refuse_scanning();
refuse_control_panel();
}FTFHP
Dunno. My HP can't refuse to scan.
Um.
Because it's just a printer.
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@Atazhaia said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Ah, yes, the honeypot of commercial FOSS. Yes, you can use this for free but when you inevitably get stuck on an issue we got some nice support to sell you~
I don't have a lot of time, or even less than that, frankly, for Mr Stallman, but if you look careful at his GNU Manifesto (the one I first read in 1995 when I found it on my Slackware 3.1 work PC), paid support is a perfectly reasonable way of making money off of libre software. (It is, as noted in that self-same document, "free as in liberty, not free as in beer".)
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
FOSS means “free open source software”.
It doesn't, actually. It means "Free or Open Source Software", sometimes rendered as "Free / Open Source Software", but in either case, the alternatives are Free Software and Open Source Software.
(Literally what caused RMS to create the FOSS movement)
Except that he didn't. He founded the free (as in libre) software movement. Open Source as a movement came later, after people worked out that OSS licences like BSD were less hostile to corporate use (by software companies) of F/OSS software.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
That Youtube guy with the stupid ear piercing
My ear (seen here in a picture from six months ago : https://i.imgur.com/DX1FXRV.jpg) would dearly love to know what exactly is wrong with ear piercings.
It's not a particularly comfortable way to carry around documents you want kept together or garments, is it? Stands to reason that you haven't got any there at the moment.
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@Steve_The_Cynic Ohhhh Nice retro faceted leds! Pity the photo didn't catch at least one lighted...
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@Zerosquare said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Literally what caused RMS to create the FOSS movement
Then it can be considered a dismal failure. Several decades later, printers are still retarded.
It was less about the printer being retarded but about the drivers. Tons and tons of perfectly good hardware (as far as that can be said about printers and the like) land in the trash with every Windows update because they changed this or that API and the manufacturer won't cut into its own profits by updating the driver. With free software, that's very unlikely to happen as long as there is still a significant number of users.
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@Atazhaia said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Ah, yes, the honeypot of commercial FOSS. Yes, you can use this for free but when you inevitably get stuck on an issue we got some nice support to sell you~
Of the FOSS projects at my work that probably number in the triple digits I'm aware of two where we ever paid for support. One is some GUI framework where paying customers get their bugs prioritized. The other is a ZFS clustering thing that's very specialized and doesn't have too many users to begin with. Heaps of others have commercial support programs but we've yet to get stuck hard enough …
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@LaoC said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@Atazhaia said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Ah, yes, the honeypot of commercial FOSS. Yes, you can use this for free but when you inevitably get stuck on an issue we got some nice support to sell you~
Of the FOSS projects at my work that probably number in the triple digits I'm aware of two where we ever paid for support. One is some GUI framework where paying customers get their bugs prioritized. The other is a ZFS clustering thing that's very specialized and doesn't have too many users to begin with. Heaps of others have commercial support programs but we've yet to get stuck hard enough …
I would like to add a comment to this. A lot of open-source projects have a tip jar or a patreon now. This is not a good way to raise funds. I can convince corporate to drop a couple grand on yearly support or a license that does nothing. They’ll shit gold nuggets before putting money into something they can't write tax off on.
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@Zerosquare said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Literally what caused RMS to create the FOSS movement
Then it can be considered a dismal failure. Several decades later, printers are still retarded.
Though, for me printers have worked pretty well in Linux for a long time. Just plug it in and they work. Except for the planned obsolescence and other dumb shit like ink subscription that when you stop the subscription the owner is remotely deactivated by the company.
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@DogsB said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@LaoC said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
@Atazhaia said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
Ah, yes, the honeypot of commercial FOSS. Yes, you can use this for free but when you inevitably get stuck on an issue we got some nice support to sell you~
Of the FOSS projects at my work that probably number in the triple digits I'm aware of two where we ever paid for support. One is some GUI framework where paying customers get their bugs prioritized. The other is a ZFS clustering thing that's very specialized and doesn't have too many users to begin with. Heaps of others have commercial support programs but we've yet to get stuck hard enough …
I would like to add a comment to this. A lot of open-source projects have a tip jar or a patreon now. This is not a good way to raise funds. I can convince corporate to drop a couple grand on yearly support or a license that does nothing. They’ll shit gold nuggets before putting money into something they can't write tax off on.
That's a valid criticism. It needs to be made easier to spend 10 bucks "donation" on some code package you depend on. Instead of donations, offer a few options to buy basically symbolical support packages that make it easy to expense.
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@cabrito well played.
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@Carnage said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
when you stop the subscription the owner is remotely deactivated by the company.
I've always thought of those licenses as Mafia-like, but that really takes the cake!
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@DogsB said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
I can convince corporate to drop a couple grand on yearly support or a license that does nothing.
The rest of us call this Enterprise
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@topspin said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
It needs to be made easier to spend 10 bucks "donation" on some code package you depend on. Instead of donations, offer a few options to buy basically symbolical support packages that make it easy to expense.
Companies need to stop doing dumb shit like depending on stuff that the supplier isn't contractually required to support.
As much as I enjoy making cheap shots at it, the Enterprise software market exists for a reason.
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@loopback0 and that's where companies like Red Hat come in.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
It doesn't, actually. It means "Free
orand Open Source Software"FTFY (at least as Stallman sees it)
It requires that the software be both free (meaning that you can use and modify it as you wish, and are allowed to redistribute modified as well as unmodified copies) and open source (meaning that you can get the source code). These are two separate concepts and to qualify as FOSS, software has to satisfy them both.
Free as in no money payed does not, in itself, appear in this label; it just tends to be a consequence of the fact that anybody can redistribute it.
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@ixvedeusi OK, but either way, it doesn't stand for just "free open source software", with neither a conjunction nor a disjunction.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Working on FOSS doesn't mean we work for free, right? Right?!?:
My ear (seen here in a picture from six months ago : https://i.imgur.com/DX1FXRV.jpg) would dearly love to know what exactly is wrong with ear piercings.
Your ear knows even if you don't.
