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@Arantor said in It has started:
I actually don't believe the very first post was political. It was an expression of frustration over a power outage - and with a recognition that this is going to be more common, without commenting on the reasons or the rationales.
I think if that was posted in a status thread it would have being fine. The regulars would have went “oh noes” and thrown an up boat. Putting it into a thread of it's own just brought out the lunacy. You can never tell what will set some people off. I do think this thread should stay. The non-garage folk (normies as I like to think of ye) will want to talk about it without it becoming a ten page shitfest.
I wonder if a garage status thread would head some of the leakage off.
There does appear to be a disconnect between what people think the garage is and what it actually is. An acknowledgement that most lively topics can't be commented on without it becoming a shitfest. Most people shitting on the garage forget they're part of the reason it exists.
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@remi The main benefit of a big dam is that you can "store" electricity and release on demand. To offset the bad sides of wind and solar - the days when it neither blows nor shines. And those tend to be the coldest days of the winter, in Finland at least. The small hydro plants don't offer the same benefit.
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@DogsB said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
Of course all of that is inherently political. You can still choose to either exchange arguments or say, in effect, "
haha u dumb, u suffer, sucker!".I tend to be in the point and laugh crowd. I post articles I'm pointing and laughing at for other people to point and laugh at. Europe and their global warming shambles is the current topic. A few weeks back it was Europe funding Russia to bomb Ukraine. Last couple weeks has being the UK prime minister race. In a few weeks it will be American midterms.
My experience has being people don't want to exchange arguments. They want to be told their arguments are right and want to be told they're clever for having stated them. God forbid you should laugh at them.
I have juuust the category for you!
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in It has started:
Most of the crisis can be avoided if Germany just said "fuck Ukraine, we stand with Russia". And there are quite a number of people who actually promote this, but this is pretty much Garage.
If you want to feed that particular
, just point out how Western countries have no qualms in helping Saudi Arabia in their war against Yemen.Then you can let the
spread as people explain why the two are totally not the same thing at all, or on the contrary whether they totally are. And listen to both sides call the other hypocrites, but that one isn't very original.
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@acrow said in It has started:
@remi The main benefit of a big dam is that you can "store" electricity and release on demand. To offset the bad sides of wind and solar - the days when it neither blows nor shines. And those tend to be the coldest days of the winter, in Finland at least. The small hydro plants don't offer the same benefit.
You're right, and I'm not saying on stream plants can be used as perfect replacement to big dams. But while they can't store energy like dams, they still keep the flexibility of turning them on/off as needed, which is a big plus.
And I was mentioning them mostly in response to "there is no space left for hydro in Europe." There is, just not of the "big dam" kind.
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@remi said in It has started:
Of course a single one is not going to matter, but then again this is exactly the same for oil & gas, a single well is not going to matter. And in the same way as oil & gas projects are (relatively) low-investment projects (compared to e.g. nuclear), they are relatively cheap to build.
There used to be lots of hype for smaller thorium reactors. Has anyone actually been working on those or are they still in flying car territory?
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@DogsB I am certainly part of the reason it exists but I’m understanding now that it is not what it was when it was first created, and has become something else. Hence my attempts at participation there, unlike before.
I do think there is a disconnect, when it was first formed the predominant type of topic that turned ugly was politics so the idea was to keep the shit that gets nasty in there and leave everything else alone. In fact when it was first proposed, it was literally originally requested as “Politics”.
I think in hindsight calling it the Garage was a good move because it reminds that it’s not for one type of content, but some way of firewalling the stuff that gets excitable away from the rest is important. I often think that “politics” does actually straddle that line, but so do other subjects.
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@boomzilla said in It has started:
@remi said in It has started:
Of course a single one is not going to matter, but then again this is exactly the same for oil & gas, a single well is not going to matter. And in the same way as oil & gas projects are (relatively) low-investment projects (compared to e.g. nuclear), they are relatively cheap to build.
There used to be lots of hype for smaller thorium reactors. Has anyone actually been working on those or are they still in flying car territory?
The so-called micro-reactors were ready for production already some time ago. The main obstacle is legislation. In Finland, nuclear reactors have to be approved by the congress, on a case-by-case basis, for each reactor, no matter how small. You can see how that's an obstacle to producing micro-reactors by the hundred...
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@boomzilla said in It has started:
@remi said in It has started:
Of course a single one is not going to matter, but then again this is exactly the same for oil & gas, a single well is not going to matter. And in the same way as oil & gas projects are (relatively) low-investment projects (compared to e.g. nuclear), they are relatively cheap to build.
There used to be lots of hype for smaller thorium reactors. Has anyone actually been working on those or are they still in flying car territory?
Aside from some VC research that might as well be snake-oil and "China is building it", with the same caveat, I've not heard of any. But from the outside it's impossible to tell if that's because lack of investment or being infeasible pipe dreams.
While "smaller" might be a big advantage, the really interesting thing to me seemed the possiblity to build reactors that use the "atomic waste" we've accumulated as actual fuel.
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@boomzilla I haven't seen much about that, except that they were a hot topic a couple of months ago when Macron said he would build some (no idea if he thought about Thorium reactors specifically, but small scales ones for sure). But as far as I can see it just was a random PR move with no details, not a fleshed-out and detailed plan (
).Though I've always thought that idea was interesting, in that we clearly already have existing technology to build small scale reactors, since they're "routinely" used in submarines or other ships. Of course it's not quite the same as general use power plants, but that indicates a lot of relevant technical expertise already exists -- combined with the existing expertise on building large nuclear power plant, it means all the required technical know-how is there.
Still, I'm on the fence as to how good the whole idea is, broadly speaking and comparing the use cases and possible alternatives for those use cases.
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@topspin said in It has started:
While "smaller" might be a big advantage, the really interesting thing to me seemed the possiblity to build reactors that use the "atomic waste" we've accumulated as actual fuel.
That, or supposedly thorium is very plentiful and doesn't the level of enrichment that uranium does.
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@LaoC said in It has started:
@DogsB said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
Of course all of that is inherently political. You can still choose to either exchange arguments or say, in effect, "
haha u dumb, u suffer, sucker!".I tend to be in the point and laugh crowd. I post articles I'm pointing and laughing at for other people to point and laugh at. Europe and their global warming shambles is the current topic. A few weeks back it was Europe funding Russia to bomb Ukraine. Last couple weeks has being the UK prime minister race. In a few weeks it will be American midterms.
My experience has being people don't want to exchange arguments. They want to be told their arguments are right and want to be told they're clever for having stated them. God forbid you should laugh at them.
I have juuust the category for you!
The lounge is where I do most of it at the moment.
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@Arantor said in It has started:
@DogsB I am certainly part of the reason it exists but I’m understanding now that it is not what it was when it was first created, and has become something else. Hence my attempts at participation there, unlike before.
I do think there is a disconnect, when it was first formed the predominant type of topic that turned ugly was politics so the idea was to keep the shit that gets nasty in there and leave everything else alone. In fact when it was first proposed, it was literally originally requested as “Politics”.
To be fair the garage is mostly politics but frequently enough people think it's a dumping ground for “I don't like your tone”, questionably bad jokes, insults or just old-fashioned flame wars.
The first and last two are just as unwelcome in the Garage. It's why Rusty is so tedious.
I think in hindsight calling it the Garage was a good move because it reminds that it’s not for one type of content, but some way of firewalling the stuff that gets excitable away from the rest is important. I often think that “politics” does actually straddle that line, but so do other subjects.
Yeah, the twitter thread and the upcoming trial is a good example. You can't really separate politics from it and it's a huge event in our industry that we're all going to want to comment on. It'll probably end up in the Garage so we won't get to read any of dkf’s comments.
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@BernieTheBernie said in It has started:
@acrow said in It has started:
Hydro you can't really build any more of, in Europe.
Look, there is the Big Rhine River. What about building a high, but not at all wide, dam some where on that river between Rüdesheim and Koblenz?
Should not be much higher than some 200 meters, as otherwise the water would just find its way into Lahn river near Giessen.
Germany would then have a Great Big Lake, reaching almost Basle (Switzerland) in the South. And at an average of 1,000 cubic meters per second, that should yield some power.I think you need a few secondary dams to plug the leaks.
Here is an example of well-prepared alternative (although smaller).
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@topspin said in It has started:
Aside from some VC research that might as well be snake-oil and "China is building it", with the same caveat, I've not heard of any. But from the outside it's impossible to tell if that's because lack of investment or being infeasible pipe dreams.
With the risk adding another splash of gasoline, I propose a "Musk fork" argument: is Elon Musk building it (or at least building the factory)?
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@boomzilla said in It has started:
That, or supposedly thorium is very plentiful and doesn't the level of enrichment that uranium does.
IIRC, the waste from thorium has a shorter half life, which makes it easier to handle. It's also more difficult to use thorium / thorium reactors for nefarious purposes (e.g., make weapons grade materials). It's the thing in molten salt reactors.
Idea isn't new, so there have been various prototypes. Development has probably been held back a lot due to lack of funding and ... hmm ... public opinion.
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@DogsB said in It has started:
normies as I like to think of ye
I don't think anyone who participates in TDWTF can accurately be described as a normie.
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@HardwareGeek there’s normal and there’s TDWTF-normal. We’re the latter.
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@Arantor Things are normal when their dot product is zero, right?
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@cvi or a perpendicular vector to a given point on the surface.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in It has started:
@topspin said in It has started:
Aside from some VC research that might as well be snake-oil and "China is building it", with the same caveat, I've not heard of any. But from the outside it's impossible to tell if that's because lack of investment or being infeasible pipe dreams.
With the risk adding another splash of gasoline, I propose a "Musk fork" argument: is Elon Musk building it (or at least building the factory)?
I will ask our developers. I keep seeing shit like "Reactor timeout" all over the application logs so shirley they have a at least a SingletonReactorFactoryFacadeBean somewhere.
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@remi said in It has started:
You're right, and I'm not saying on stream plants can be used as perfect replacement to big dams. But while they can't store energy like dams, they still keep the flexibility of turning them on/off as needed, which is a big plus.
There are two things actually needed for good hydropower. A good flow of water, and a large height difference. The dam is just about how you achieve those, and if you can find a suitable location with the things you actually need without a dam, so much the better. I wouldn't expect that to be a common thing except in the vicinity of major waterfalls, and those tend to be regarded as major tourist attractions and so handled sensitively.
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@DogsB said in It has started:
It'll probably end up in the Garage so we won't get to read any of dkf’s comments.
That's OK. I won't read them either!
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@acrow said in It has started:
And those tend to be the coldest days of the winter, in Finland at least. The small hydro plants don't offer the same benefit.
Those 2 things combined probably mean those small plants won't work well in the winter - because the water froze...
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@dcon said in It has started:
@acrow said in It has started:
And those tend to be the coldest days of the winter, in Finland at least. The small hydro plants don't offer the same benefit.
Those 2 things combined probably mean those small plants won't work well in the winter - because the water froze...
Really hard to have the water freeze. The cooling pond at Fermi is a nice place to fish in winter, but your fingers will freeze rigid.
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@dkf said in It has started:
There are two things actually needed for good hydropower. A good flow of water, and a large height difference. The dam is just about how you achieve those, and if you can find a suitable location with the things you actually need without a dam, so much the better. I wouldn't expect that to be a common thing except in the vicinity of major waterfalls, and those tend to be regarded as major tourist attractions and so handled sensitively.
Yes but no. The thing with smaller scale in stream generators is that they can work with smaller things, both in terms of flow but also (and perhaps more importantly?) of height difference.
Obviously there is only so much energy available with lower flow and height, but again (is that the point where I start quoting my previous posts?) you can make many of them and since they're cheaper and have less impact, it may still be useful overall. It won't replace one big dam, if you could build that big dam (though the first hit I found on that topic says exactly that!), but in Europe where dams are mostly out of the question, they may allow eking out a bit more out of the total hydro potential.
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@DogsB said in It has started:
To be fair the garage is mostly politics but frequently enough people think it's a dumping ground for “I don't like your tone”, questionably bad jokes, insults or just old-fashioned flame wars.
Funny you should say that, since I personally consider that the Garage is exactly for all those (and especially the last one, which includes topics that people can't discuss without turning into a flame war). I know it's not everyone's definition, nor the "official" one, nor that of our serial "everything is political is Garage when I say so" contributor, but it's still how I see it.
I personally have no qualms about discussing political topics outside of the Garage, as long as it stays civil, and I take care when doing so of limiting strongly both the way I frame my arguments (trying to state only the less controversial opinions, or to at least acknowledge the validity of the other side), and the way I react to other's argument (either staying as civil as possible in my answers, or marking very clearly my snark/trolling as such, and keeping it as short as possible). Not that I perfectly manage it, but at least I try.
Since I don't remember many instances where I was told to stop it, I have to assume that my behaviour is either acceptable, or not too much over the line. I have therefore no intention of changing it.
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@Gribnit said in It has started:
@dcon said in It has started:
@acrow said in It has started:
And those tend to be the coldest days of the winter, in Finland at least. The small hydro plants don't offer the same benefit.
Those 2 things combined probably mean those small plants won't work well in the winter - because the water froze...
Really hard to have the water freeze. The cooling pond at Fermi is a nice place to fish in winter, but your fingers will freeze rigid.
Hydro doesn't have cooling ponds. They have water storage. Freezing means less water for use in driving the turbines. And very likely, a lot less water coming into the reservoir. This will have a much larger impact on a small plant.
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@dcon said in It has started:
@Gribnit said in It has started:
@dcon said in It has started:
@acrow said in It has started:
And those tend to be the coldest days of the winter, in Finland at least. The small hydro plants don't offer the same benefit.
Those 2 things combined probably mean those small plants won't work well in the winter - because the water froze...
Really hard to have the water freeze. The cooling pond at Fermi is a nice place to fish in winter, but your fingers will freeze rigid.
Hydro doesn't have cooling ponds. They have water storage. Freezing means less water for use in driving the turbines. And very likely, a lot less water coming into the reservoir. This will have a much larger impact on a small plant.
Ah crap, I crossed the streams... doubling down. Ice is heavy. A little less heavy but still heavy. Don't y'all have avalanches?
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@remi said in It has started:
I personally have no qualms about discussing political topics outside of the Garage, as long as it stays civil
I agree, but keeping it civil is the hard part. It only takes one person to derail the train, and you can never be sure what's going to cause somebody to lose their cool.
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@DogsB said in It has started:
I think if that was posted in a status thread it would have being fine.
Without the last line, sure.
@DogsB said in It has started:
I wonder if a garage status thread would head some of the leakage off.
It absolutely would not.
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@Gribnit said in It has started:
@dcon said in It has started:
@Gribnit said in It has started:
@dcon said in It has started:
@acrow said in It has started:
And those tend to be the coldest days of the winter, in Finland at least. The small hydro plants don't offer the same benefit.
Those 2 things combined probably mean those small plants won't work well in the winter - because the water froze...
Really hard to have the water freeze. The cooling pond at Fermi is a nice place to fish in winter, but your fingers will freeze rigid.
Hydro doesn't have cooling ponds. They have water storage. Freezing means less water for use in driving the turbines. And very likely, a lot less water coming into the reservoir. This will have a much larger impact on a small plant.
Ah crap, I crossed the streams... doubling down. Ice is heavy. A little less heavy but still heavy. Don't y'all have avalanches?
Not of D₂O anyway.
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@HardwareGeek said in It has started:
@remi said in It has started:
I personally have no qualms about discussing political topics outside of the Garage, as long as it stays civil
I agree, but keeping it civil is the hard part. It only takes one person to derail the train, and you can never be sure what's going to cause somebody to lose their cool.
Yeah but then the age-old Usenet adage still applies:
\|||/ (o o) ,----ooO--(_)-------. | Please | | don't feed the | | TROLL's ! | '--------------Ooo--' |__|__| || || ooO OooIf things go to badly, you can just stop responding and if it's just two persons in the discussion (which is actually quite often the case for discussions of more than a couple of posts), then there'll just be one non-civil post and that's it.
Of course, "someone is wrong on the internet" and so on, but still, sometimes self-control can work.
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@LaoC I was hoping to
first, since I was responding to him, but 
anyway. 
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@remi said in It has started:
\|||/ (o o) ,----ooO--(_)-------. | Please | | don't feed the | | TROLL's dog! | '--------------Ooo--' |__|__| || || ooO Ooo
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@BernieTheBernie You may still feed the TROLL's cat though. That's not a problem.
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@Bulb said in It has started:
@BernieTheBernie You may still feed the TROLL's cat though. That's not a problem.
Silly joke resisted.
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@LaoC said in It has started:
@remi said in It has started:
| TROLL's ! |Most offensive thing I've read in the entire thread
What's offensive about it? It was just asking you to not feed the troll's exclamation mark. We don't want fat exclamation marks.
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@dkf said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@remi said in It has started:
| TROLL's ! |Most offensive thing I've read in the entire thread
What's offensive about it? It was just asking you to not feed the troll's exclamation mark. We don't want fat exclamation marks.
No fat shaming. I use fat commas every day
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@LaoC said in It has started:
@dkf said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@remi said in It has started:
| TROLL's ! |Most offensive thing I've read in the entire thread
What's offensive about it? It was just asking you to not feed the troll's exclamation mark. We don't want fat exclamation marks.
No fat shaming. I use fat commas every day
It's different for commas.
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@Carnage said in It has started:
@Bulb said in It has started:
@BernieTheBernie You may still feed the TROLL's cat though. That's not a problem.
Silly joke resisted.
Time to cool off.
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south park say the smug from electric cars would be worse than co2
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Hvae we talked about Poland running out of coal yet?
Europe’s coal country runs short of coal
Poland is running out of coal for home users, prompting panicked queues outside coal mines.
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@BernieTheBernie said in It has started:
Hvae we talked about Poland running out of coal yet?
Europe’s coal country runs short of coal
Poland is running out of coal for home users, prompting panicked queues outside coal mines.
Polish coal sector is an infuriating clusterfuck. It should be privatized to the ground decades ago.
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@Zerosquare said in It has started:
@MrL said in It has started:
Polish
coal sectoris an infuriating clusterfuck. 
This is an unfortunate consequence of geography and the effluent geopolitics, the Gates of Kiev have been a border between West and East since before their construction.
"South Park" Smug Alert! (TV Episode 2006) ⭐ 8.1 | Animation, Comedy
