It has started
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@Arantor said in It has started:
To me that wasn’t political, just acknowledging “how things are”. But if you’re going to argue that anything which has a political root cause behind is it also political, then literally everything has politics behind it. Things can’t ever just be things in that world view, because there’s a political edge somewhere.
Who was right?
Seriously, you've said yourself that there are a bunch of Garage leaks in this topic. Your analysis is a whole lot of sticking your head in the sand and pretending @BernieTheBernie wasn't criticizing Green policy.
, as evidenced by the rest of the topic, you came up with the wrong answer.Seriously, I have no idea what you think the algorithm for "This belongs in the Garage" ought to be. If you only answer one part of this post, please tell me how you think I'm supposed to look at a post I've written and decide whether to post it in General or The Garage.
Hell, pi being 3.141 and some more digits seems like it’d be political in your world just because that one time one state tried to rule that it wasn’t.
This is the third time in a week where you've propositioned a hypothetical about something you wish I'd posted and then reacted badly to the thing you're pretending I posted.
Please stop doing that.
Here’s also one of the things that makes me genuinely baffled and part of the “holy shit how did you even”. So what if BernieTheBernie’s username features Bernie? I guess it never occurred to you that Bernard could actually be someone’s name without it being a fucking political reference.
You were pretending that I have a dossier that lists every user by their political affiliation. In reality, I had literally nothing to go on to guess @BernieTheBernie's political affiliation.
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@cvi said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
How does he know there's going to be more power outages?
While visiting a different country for a week or so, energy supply was the #1 item in the national news. Voluntary measures were discussed. Industry was called to identify critical infrastructure, to come up with plans to reduce energy consumption, and to come up with fallback plans in case of outages. People were asked to prep at home for rolling outages for a few hours as well (at least to some degree, e.g., have light; this is in a city, where there probably hasn't been a significant length outage for a while).
Not exactly a far fetched conclusion that there might be power outages in the near future.
I didn't say it was a bad prediction.
But it would be dumb of me, or of him, or of you, or of @Arantor, to pretend that part of the argument for shutting down fossil fuels and nuclear generation was that it wouldn't cause shortages.
Recognizing the shortages is recognizing that the Greens who told you to shut down power generation are causing you to suffer.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear except there was none of any of that in the first post.
The first post was simply “there is a power cut and there are going to be more power cuts”.
There is literally nothing about Green policy (let alone where that might be, since that’s highly relevant) until the second post.
I agree with you that everything ELSE in this topic is a Garage leak. I just don’t agree that the first post had to be, because to me there is insufficient context for it to be political!
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@Arantor said in It has started:
There is literally nothing about Green policy (let alone where that might be, since that’s highly relevant) until the second post.
What's the Green policy stuff in the second post?
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@GuyWhoKilledBear the push for electric vehicles?
Though, if you’re asking me what the green policy is, one wonders if it was there to start with… and if you’re asking me because you can’t see it in the second, maybe it’s not in the first either?
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in It has started:
Now, seriously... has anyone seen any numbers about the difference those 14 reactors would make? Obviously, there would be less gas burnt in the gas plants, so at the very least the prices would not be that high, but would it be enough difference to offset the current lack of gas from one particular source?
I seriously doubt it. Of course, paying 800% is better than paying 1100% more, but it still sucks.
The "less gas burnt" part is kind of important, since that gas also has industrial uses. Powering and heating all the homes is well and good until the time comes to order some spare parts for, say, the water treatment plant. Then the parts factory tells you to hand them some gas so they can make some parts.
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Speaking of "less gas burnt", is there any talk of jump-starting gas production in Germany again, yet? Or anywhere in Europe for that matter?
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
Seriously, I have no idea what you think the algorithm for "This belongs in the Garage" ought to be. If you only answer one part of this post, please tell me how you think I'm supposed to look at a post I've written and decide whether to post it in General or The Garage.
I would also like to know how people here would answer this question.
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@Arantor said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear the push for electric vehicles?
Though, if you’re asking me what the green policy is, one wonders if it was there to start with… and if you’re asking me because you can’t see it in the second, maybe it’s not in the first either?
Seriously? You don't get the parallel?
The second post is about increased demand for electric vehicles [which is caused by Green politicians pushing for electric vehicles.]
The first post is about blackouts [which are caused by Green politicians demanding that fossil fuel and nuclear power generation get shut down.]
In both cases, the part in the brackets isn't in the actual post. That's context I'm adding in.
For some reason, you think the brackets in the second post are fair but the brackets in the first post are unfair. I don't see the difference.
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@acrow said in It has started:
Speaking of "less gas burnt", is there any talk of jump-starting gas production in Germany again, yet?
Yes, the Bavarian politicos continue true to their form and demanded:
"We need to start fracking now (anywhere outside of Bavaria)!"
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@antiquarian my “is it Garage” filter kicks in at either:
a) things that have been discussed before which I know are heated, whether validly or not, e.g. electric vehicles seems to irrationally upset people, I don’t know why, but safe to say anytime the conversation touches things like EVs, time to visit the Garage
b) when the conversation goes into the why, the how, and motives therein of a thing, especially in the matters of what should br done about it, where the thing is contentiousSo, previous case in point, I posted a link to a story about Musk buying Twitter. I offered no commentary on it beyond “that’s a thing that’s happening now” and I was informed this was political, or rather that I “knew” it would get political. The former is wrong (it was simply “this is happening”) and I had no idea the latter would actually result, because I simply put no more effort in thinking than “well, this is happening now”.
To me, that wasn’t political until the question was raised about why he did it, and even then it seemed shy of the line while it was “maybe he just wants more money” but went full tilt when we got to the “he’s doing it for the censorship”.
Here, the pending post seemed to be just wry commentary on “now there are power cuts” without getting into any of the how or why, or what should be done about it.
Had the first post talked about energy policy, war in Ukraine or some other domestic or international reason for these power cuts, that would be political. Had it suggested ways to tackle this beyond “maybe I need a battery backup/generator”, again that would be political.
It’s that line between “what is” and “why is” for me. I can think a thing is stupid and for that to be entirely not political even if the underlying cause is.
Tell you what though. I’d be OK with politics discussions outside the Garage if they were kept on topic, didn’t come with some pre-baked assumptions in them and weren’t always tossed around like loaded hand grenades.
E.g., I think it should be possible to have a discussion on electric vehicles, without descending into the usual realms of pissfighting that results.
Other forums seem to manage this.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear how do you arrive at that context for the first post? If the subject is Germany, I’d be far more inclined to look at “shit the Russians have turned off our gas supply” as a proximate factor, and nothing to do with green energy policy.
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@Arantor said in It has started:
Other forums seem to manage this.
Any ideas about how they do it?
By the way, your standard seems reasonable and I would be okay with us adopting it if I had a vote.
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@Arantor said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear how do you arrive at that context for the first post? If the subject is Germany, I’d be far more inclined to look at “shit the Russians have turned off our gas supply” as a proximate factor, and nothing to do with green energy policy.
That's still kind of political though.
@antiquarian said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
Seriously, I have no idea what you think the algorithm for "This belongs in the Garage" ought to be. If you only answer one part of this post, please tell me how you think I'm supposed to look at a post I've written and decide whether to post it in General or The Garage.
I would also like to know how people here would answer this question.
The whole thing should have been in the garage. (E: Probably. I can see the reasoning about it being a mere "Status" post, just expected how it'll turn out.)
However, it wasn't and nobody jeffed it, so it felt like that was accepted and I expected people to keep it mild. The discussion did seem mostly focused around facts (but I might misremember that) and less about political finger-pointing.The post where I pointed to the garage felt like crossing the line further. I note that you don't think that's possible to begin with and that, since "Blakey was an ass everywhere", that's not a garage criterion. Still, despite the accusation, I didn't point it out just because "I disagreed with it". I've disagreed with several earlier posts. I pointed it out because it felt like it was escalating.
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@acrow said in It has started:
Or anywhere in Europe for that matter?
Netherlands confirmed that they won't be reducing gas pumping due to the current situation way back when everyone was still flying
flags.I guess they will simply plan to patch up the ruptured buildings with
flags. (because that was the reason for the scheduled reducing in the pumping).
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@antiquarian a good many forums forbid expressly full on political discussions (I.e. shit directly attached to politicians, governments, policies), but are more than happy to facilitate discussions where a thing is discussed and the “why’s that” is a footnote in passing.
If this topic had happened on other forums I’m on, with the first post as is, the second post would have been a “that sucks, do you have a generator” and maybe the context of why the power cuts would have been a one line as to why.
The other thing that is key is moderation. This is not about restructing discussion inasmuch as it is directing the flow of energy. You want to discuss electric vehicles? Sure, on the caveat that when you get into debates about government policies beyond “this is what is happening” (which is factual and may be relevant but not “inherently” political), you move it.
If the wall is there between the Garage and outside, it needs enforcing, consistently. This topic is an example of “a topic that turned political and was allowed to fester”, the longer it stayed out of the Garage (in part or in whole), the more people assumed it was OK.
On the other side, that is not to say that every “infraction” needs to be responded to heavy-handedly, that’s just counterproductive. People make mistakes, errors of judgement etc, and people can be responsible and even accountable for making mistakes without blame or poking a stick about it.
A community is like a garden, you have to plant it, you have to nurture it and sometimes you have to prune things to ensure the health of the whole.
I think what would help is that if we see a topic going off the rails, to actually flag it. If the moderators then decide, eh, no biggie, that should be the end of it unless it escalates. That’s really the job of a moderator: to be the gardener, and to decide at what point enough is enough, and for that person or persons to have the authority not just from Alex but from the rest of us too to enact. This is also why backseat moderation is a problem, because carping on about something can legitimise it instead of doing something about it.
Perhaps it simply needs to be this: if you’re (general you) going to complain about a topic having gotten political, why not try flagging it instead and then… not saying how you think it’s political? If several people all agree, then maybe it’s time to move it.
I also think part of the problem is that different people have different perceptions of what the Garage “is” versus what it “should be”. I’m still figuring this one out.
What is clear to me is that different people view that distinction radically differently, and I’d even note there are Garage topics that I wouldn’t necessarily have made Garage topics from the off, even if they later might have ended up there.
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@Arantor said in It has started:
electric vehicles seems to irrationally upset people
Uh...
Don’t ask me, just damn near every time it comes up, some subset of everyone gets angry and rowdy! I don’t know why it would though.
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@Arantor said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@Arantor said in It has started:
electric vehicles seems to irrationally upset people
Uh...
Don’t ask me, just damn near every time it comes up, some subset of everyone gets angry and rowdy! I don’t know why it would though.
Oh, so irrational == "angry and wordy." Got it.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
The second post is about increased demand for electric vehicles [which is caused by
Green politicians pushing for electric vehicleselectric vehicles becoming more available and economic.]Or, you know, any combination of factors. But I guess it's easier to point fingers at some group and blame them.
Besides, wasn't there just a discussion in this thread that we're looking at an energy crisis, of which electricity is just one part (and availability of fossil fuels is part of the problem)?
The first post is about blackouts [which are caused by Green politicians demanding that fossil fuel and nuclear power generation get shut down.]
Depending on where you live, there's relatively broad support for at least the former. And not everybody is shutting down nuclear power plants either.
In fact, if you want some hyperbole, reducing the dependence on fossil fuels that most European countries have to import, seems like a very good idea given recent events. Just should have done it earlier...
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@boomzilla not quite. My point is that people get angry and shouty for little apparent reason just because EVs come up in conversation. I dint know what it is about EVs in particular that seems to make people angry - even before we talk politics (the mere idea seems to upset for some reason).
Result, we can’t talk about a thing because we just know it’s going to kick off, even when we should be able to discuss it without it kicking off.
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@Arantor said in It has started:
@boomzilla not quite. My point is that people get angry and shouty for little apparent reason just because EVs come up in conversation. I dint know what it is about EVs in particular that seems to make people angry - even before we talk politics (the mere idea seems to upset for some reason).
Result, we can’t talk about a thing because we just know it’s going to kick off, even when we should be able to discuss it without it kicking off.
I think that sometimes disagreement is interpreted as irrational anger.
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@boomzilla HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT
In other news, yes. Text is also awful for not properly supporting sarcasm as a feature.
At least in the Garage you can infer that sarcasm is the default.
But there’s a thought: wouldn’t it be good if people didn’t assume anger and politics by default? Would take a lot of heat outside of the non Garage.
Also, would it be worth finding a background picture for the Garage like there is for the Lounge? It might help with being a visual cue for “these two things are not the same”.
I suggest a biohazard symbol and an apocalyptic wasteland
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@cvi said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
The second post is about increased demand for electric vehicles [which is caused by
Green politicians pushing for electric vehicleselectric vehicles becoming more available and economic.]Or, you know, any combination of factors. But I guess it's easier to point fingers at some group and blame them.
@Arantor described that post as inappropriately political. It's not inappropriately political unless you insert the part in the brackets.
The first post is about blackouts [which are caused by Green politicians demanding that fossil fuel and nuclear power generation get shut down.]
Depending on where you live, there's relatively broad support for at least the former.
That's not what apolitical means.
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@acrow said in It has started:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in It has started:
Now, seriously... has anyone seen any numbers about the difference those 14 reactors would make? Obviously, there would be less gas burnt in the gas plants, so at the very least the prices would not be that high, but would it be enough difference to offset the current lack of gas from one particular source?
I seriously doubt it. Of course, paying 800% is better than paying 1100% more, but it still sucks.
The "less gas burnt" part is kind of important, since that gas also has industrial uses. Powering and heating all the homes is well and good until the time comes to order some spare parts for, say, the water treatment plant. Then the parts factory tells you to hand them some gas so they can make some parts.
Well, duh, obviously. The question remains the same: do the electricity from 14 reactors make enough difference, or would we need something more?
@acrow said in It has started:
Speaking of "less gas burnt", is there any talk of jump-starting gas production in Germany again, yet? Or anywhere in Europe for that matter?
Yes, I have wondered about that too. I am old enough to remember coal gas and wondered if we could just start making it again. But apparently the differences in the infrastructure are too big.
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@cvi said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
The second post is about increased demand for electric vehicles [which is caused by
Green politicians pushing for electric vehicleselectric vehicles becoming more available and economic.]Or, you know, any combination of factors. But I guess it's easier to point fingers at some group and blame them.
Location-dependent. In some places electric cars are still heavily subsidized.
The first post is about blackouts [which are caused by Green politicians demanding that fossil fuel and nuclear power generation get shut down.]
Depending on where you live, there's relatively broad support for at least the former. And not everybody is shutting down nuclear power plants either.
In any given location, most of the populace simply doesn't care. As long as the lights turn on when they flick a switch, their opinion is whatever was sain on evening news. News on fossil fuels has been heavy on climate change, and light on how our fertilizer production is dependent on them.
I predict the next couple of years to see a great shift in public opinion. An possible unrest, if the populace feels they've been lied to.
In fact, if you want some hyperbole, reducing the dependence on fossil fuels that most European countries have to import, seems like a very good idea given recent events. Just should have done it earlier...
Earlier? Maybe. But much, much slower. You have to let the industry settle once in a while, or surprises will pop up.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear I don’t see “is political” as a binary. I see it as a float.
But for me the Garage-o-meter tripped because the EV discussion is polarised far more than I had any specific political objections to it.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in It has started:
Well, duh, obviously. The question remains the same: do the electricity from 14 reactors make enough difference, or would we need something more?
Depends on the definition of "enough". Based on the above comments, there is now enough for heating all apartments through the winter, if private gas stores are nationalized. Meaning, the industry would still be left hanging. Or, if property rights are respected, then some industry will get some, and some people will need to co-habit. Some industry already shut down.
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@Arantor said in It has started:
Perhaps it simply needs to be this: if you’re (general you) going to complain about a topic having gotten political, why not try flagging it instead and then… not saying how you think it’s political? If several people all agree, then maybe it’s time to move it.
Why are we here?
The current edition of the running gun battle you and I have been in since March started yesterday when a Left-aligned posters bullied a Right-aligned poster into deleting a post from this topic because, they claimed, the post belonged in the Garage.
I pointed out that the post was indistinguishable from lots of others in this topic and that it's fine that anyone posts whatever in here because this entire topic is a giant Garage leak.
And then you, who correctly pointed out the same thing two weeks ago, showed up to split weird hairs and put words in my mouth.
I am suspicious that the other sites you're talking about are the utopia of people being able to talk about politics without getting heated. In my experience, and in the experience of a lot of other Garage members, a lot of those sites claim to be like that but are really Left Wing Echo Chambers - basically a mirror image of the Garage.
Fish don't have a word for water, and if you're in a Left Garage somewhere else, you might not realize it.
I don't understand the substantive difference between the post you said is OK and the post you said you didn't. And at this point I don't care.
What I do understand is that you have said that you'd like to get rid of the hard no politics rule and replace it with a nebulous rule about the energy of the post.
That will not work for this site. We have about five Left Garage Members who are responsible for 95% of the Garage leaks that think that their shitty politics makes them first class citizens and they can post whatever they want and that Right Garage Members are second class citizens and have to hold their tongue.
If we change the rules so that "Politics is only allowed in the Garage" is no longer a hard and fast requirement, what we're going to wind up with is two separate echo chambers.
I think you want that, and you know what?
Fine. Take it.
You've successfully chased me out of the Lounge and General categories.
Congratulations. Feel good about yourself.
.Enjoy your Left Garage, asshole.
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-sigh-
It’s not the “politics” part I had a problem with that I thought needed to be in the Garage, it’s the “getting pissed at people” part. It’s the “sarcasm by default” and especially the flame war part.
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I did not instruct
to try to persuade 
to become a member of the Tories. And now that things are clear, let us continue to do some
about energetic 
s.Newspapers here are full of doomsday blackouts to be expected in the near future. Just like (paywalled):
Strommangel: Experte warnt vor großflächigen Stromausfällen
Der Krisenvorsorge-Fachmann Herbert Saurugg warnt vor einem großflächigen Stromausfall. Fehler seien mindestens ein Jahrzehnt lang gemacht worden, die Energiewende bezeichnet er als realitätsfern.
TFA tells us it's not only because of raw materials (gas, oil) etc lacking, but also there were not enough investments during more than a decade into the distribution network, storage, backups, etc.
Let me remind you of the planned (!) shutdown of a big power line in Germany which caused non-planned outages even in Morocco. Long ago, you could say, and you're
.
Or do you remember the fuckup of a data center with their USVs? During a blackout, their computers switched to the USVs. Then they started their diesels. So all computers were switched to that source. And USVs started re-charging. But their diesels were not powerful enough for these two loads, and computers went back to the USVs, and ...So, when electricity will be shut down in one area, what will happen when it comes back?
Oh, of course, everyone just unplugged their fridge which would otherwise start. And their electrical heating. And ...
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
You've successfully chased me out of the Lounge and General categories.
Does that mean I can hope to win the Wall'o'Text award again?
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@remi said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
You've successfully chased me out of the Lounge and General categories.
Does that mean I can hope to win the Wall'o'Text award again?
Dunno man. How do you feel about ranked-choice instant runoffs?
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@Arantor said in It has started:
-sigh-
It’s not the “politics” part I had a problem with that I thought needed to be in the Garage, it’s the “getting pissed at people” part. It’s the “sarcasm by default” and especially the flame war part.
Highgrounding!
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
Enjoy your Left Garage, asshole.
And tell me where it is please.
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@Gribnit Your garage is where you left it.
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More precisely, it's Right where you Left it.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
If we change the rules so that "Politics is only allowed in the Garage" is no longer a hard and fast requirement
We might as well have changed the rules seeing as they're not actually enforced anyway.
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So, in summary, you have the choice between getting yelled at for not telling people to keep it in the garage or getting yelled at for telling “the wrong people” to keep it in the garage?
Fine, whatever.
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@BernieTheBernie said in It has started:
I did not instruct
to try to persuade to become a member of the Tories. And now that things are clear, let us continue to do some
about energetic s.Newspapers here are full of doomsday blackouts to be expected in the near future. Just like (paywalled):
Strommangel: Experte warnt vor großflächigen Stromausfällen
Der Krisenvorsorge-Fachmann Herbert Saurugg warnt vor einem großflächigen Stromausfall. Fehler seien mindestens ein Jahrzehnt lang gemacht worden, die Energiewende bezeichnet er als realitätsfern.
TFA tells us it's not only because of raw materials (gas, oil) etc lacking, but also there were not enough investments during more than a decade into the distribution network, storage, backups, etc.
Let me remind you of the planned (!) shutdown of a big power line in Germany which caused non-planned outages even in Morocco. Long ago, you could say, and you're
.
Or do you remember the fuckup of a data center with their USVs? During a blackout, their computers switched to the USVs. Then they started their diesels. So all computers were switched to that source. And USVs started re-charging. But their diesels were not powerful enough for these two loads, and computers went back to the USVs, and ...So, when electricity will be shut down in one area, what will happen when it comes back?
Oh, of course, everyone just unplugged their fridge which would otherwise start. And their electrical heating. And ...
Yeah, and even so, it's by far preferable to shut the grid down on purpose than to have to get it all up again after it falls over on it's own.
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@antiquarian said in It has started:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in It has started:
Seriously, I have no idea what you think the algorithm for "This belongs in the Garage" ought to be. If you only answer one part of this post, please tell me how you think I'm supposed to look at a post I've written and decide whether to post it in General or The Garage.
I would also like to know how people here would answer this question.
TBQH it's more based on how likely the post is to provoke a strong reaction (how
it is, say) than whether or not it's expressing a political opinion - as demonstrated, nearly any opinion can be political. Unfortunately it is sometimes difficult to predict what people will have a reaction to.
If you can discuss politics calmly without insults, I'm fine seeing that out here. That's apparently where these things inevitably lead, though, it seems.
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@Bulb said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
What I'm saying is that nukes are are having a very bad effect on France's grid right now and Germany is compensating for it. I guess that's undisputed?
But they are having bad effect because they are not operating, don't they? And they are not operating not because they are nuclear, but because they are either broken down or short of cooling water.
Which is because they're thermal. It bears mentioning that lack of cooling water is a problem some generators just don't have.
Now my understanding is that the reason they are broken down is that, given the recent political climate in which it was expected the EU will order them closed any day now, the operators had little incentive to invest in them.
As of the end of August 2022, 32 units were offline. Fourteen of those were either undergoing repair or investigation of corrosion problems that were first detected at Civaux 1 in December 2021 (for more information see below), and 18 were offline for routine maintenance. Many planned outages were delayed or reduced in scope in 2021 due to the Covid-19 pandemic.
(about as pro-nuke as you can get as a source)
Security-critical parts usually have a maximum life time prescribed by some regulation or other, and you don't just routinely change them before that unless something indicates you have to. They didn't even detect corrosion problems before the end of last year and it's not very likely they would have spent money to replace those corroded parts before if they didn't have any problem, independently of EU policy.And as for cooling water, it depends on how open or closed the cooling circuit is. But it is exceptional drought this year, and it is complicating things, because we have two problems at the same time.
Sure, but those problems exist in Germany just the same, so I don't see why we should assume that if Germany had more nukes, they would be producing more than their French cousins do.
Now if anyone is saying more nukes would have a positive effect on Germany's grid, they need to explain why they expect German nukes to behave differently from French nukes.
It depends on whether they'd work. Which is back to the strategic mistakes. Not this summer. In last ten or more years. This summer was too late to really fix anything. These things won't change in a year.
The strategic mistakes were certainly huge, but phasing out nuclear power isn't one of them. Phasing it out and not installing neither enough plants nor necessary infrastructure to replace it was.
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@Bulb said in It has started:
so decomissioning the nuclear powerplants wasn't good planning (green politicians don't plan well:
).What green politicians? Merkel?
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@boomzilla said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@GOG said in It has started:
I thought Applied-Mediocrity's post was mild enough by forum standards - it didn't even clock 0.5 on the Blakeyrant scale, and Blakey used to do that all the time, everywhere, about everything.
I don't get how it's political. The whole point of this thread is the energy crisis in Europe. Not having electricity to charge a car seems like a pretty obvious problem no matter how much denial one pours into European Energy Policy in the face of lack of capacity.
Has anybody been denying that there is a a lack of capacity?
Not exactly, but kind of, when people were saying that there was plenty for charging electric cars.
That's not the same thing. You have a capacity problem if at any point in time there is more demand than the installed plants can deliver. Neither the load curve nor the demand curve for BEV are flat, however, and vehicles tend to stand idle about 95% of the time. Particularly at times when there is (and despite the high average price there is at times) plenty of cheap solar.
It's not identical, as I said, but I'm curious where this "cheap solar" exists given that the places currently warning about charging cars is where solar could potentially work pretty well given the amount of sunlight are telling people not to charge while the sun is up and shining. That this is a regular ritual and not some weird confluence of events tells us that there really is a serious capacity problem.
Utilities announcing their price is fundamental to finding the price for electricity, so yes, those prices are public. There have been a few times last year where solar alone was powering 100% of the demand in Germany.
I can't really comment on why that may be different in other places. When those places warn people not to charge, do they give any reason? Because experience tells people being told not to do something they're entitled to for no reason at all tends to work at best for people who've spend too much of their life in the army.Your Gribnit impersonation is getting better.
Fuck off to the garage.
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@LaoC said in It has started:
The strategic mistakes were certainly huge, but phasing out nuclear power isn't one of them. Phasing it out and not installing neither enough plants nor necessary infrastructure to replace it was.
Not to mention securing the fuel sources for whatever plants there are. The solar and wind installations always need gas or hydro to fill the gaps when it's not windy and sunny enough. Hydro you can't really build any more of, in Europe. So drilling for gas in Europe becomes a necessity.
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@LaoC said in It has started:
The strategic mistakes were certainly huge, but phasing out nuclear power isn't one of them. Phasing it out and not installing neither enough plants nor necessary infrastructure to replace it was.
Well, thats pretty tightly connected. Also, don't forget that the replacement plans were based on the plentiful availability of natural gas from a trusted source. And I need to say: technically, the option is still here. Most of the crisis can be avoided if Germany just said "fuck Ukraine, we stand with Russia". And there are quite a number of people who actually promote this, but this is pretty much Garage.
Another thing: there are actually countries that want to switch TO nuclear, or at least to MORE nuclear (from coal). In most of them, it's a ... mess. Even in those that are OK with getting their nuclear plants from the same totally trusted source as Germany gets its cheap gas from.
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@acrow said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
The strategic mistakes were certainly huge, but phasing out nuclear power isn't one of them. Phasing it out and not installing neither enough plants nor necessary infrastructure to replace it was.
Not to mention securing the fuel sources for whatever plants there are. The solar and wind installations always need gas or hydro to fill the gaps when it's not windy and sunny enough. Hydro you can't really build any more of, in Europe. So drilling for gas in Europe becomes a necessity.
Just do what vattenfall did when they built the hydro power plants; give the displaced families and their descendants free electricity forever. I don't know if they succeeded in reversing that but they have tried because apparently it is getting more costly every generation.
But that helps with getting the people out of the valleys fairly easily.
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@LaoC said in It has started:
Of course all of that is inherently political. You can still choose to either exchange arguments or say, in effect, "
haha u dumb, u suffer, sucker!".I tend to be in the point and laugh crowd. I post articles I'm pointing and laughing at for other people to point and laugh at. Europe and their global warming shambles is the current topic. A few weeks back it was Europe funding Russia to bomb Ukraine. Last couple weeks has being the UK prime minister race. In a few weeks it will be American midterms.
My experience has being people don't want to exchange arguments. They want to be told their arguments are right and want to be told they're clever for having stated them. God forbid you should laugh at them.
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@acrow said in It has started:
Hydro you can't really build any more of, in Europe.
Look, there is the Big Rhine River. What about building a high, but not at all wide, dam some where on that river between Rüdesheim and Koblenz?
Should not be much higher than some 200 meters, as otherwise the water would just find its way into Lahn river near Giessen.
Germany would then have a Great Big Lake, reaching almost Basle (Switzerland) in the South. And at an average of 1,000 cubic meters per second, that should yield some power.
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@LaoC said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@LaoC said in It has started:
@boomzilla said in It has started:
@GOG said in It has started:
I thought Applied-Mediocrity's post was mild enough by forum standards - it didn't even clock 0.5 on the Blakeyrant scale, and Blakey used to do that all the time, everywhere, about everything.
I don't get how it's political. The whole point of this thread is the energy crisis in Europe. Not having electricity to charge a car seems like a pretty obvious problem no matter how much denial one pours into European Energy Policy in the face of lack of capacity.
Has anybody been denying that there is a a lack of capacity?
Not exactly, but kind of, when people were saying that there was plenty for charging electric cars.
That's not the same thing. You have a capacity problem if at any point in time there is more demand than the installed plants can deliver. Neither the load curve nor the demand curve for BEV are flat, however, and vehicles tend to stand idle about 95% of the time. Particularly at times when there is (and despite the high average price there is at times) plenty of cheap solar.
It's not identical, as I said, but I'm curious where this "cheap solar" exists given that the places currently warning about charging cars is where solar could potentially work pretty well given the amount of sunlight are telling people not to charge while the sun is up and shining. That this is a regular ritual and not some weird confluence of events tells us that there really is a serious capacity problem.
Utilities announcing their price is fundamental to finding the price for electricity, so yes, those prices are public. There have been a few times last year where solar alone was powering 100% of the demand in Germany.
I can't really comment on why that may be different in other places. When those places warn people not to charge, do they give any reason? Because experience tells people being told not to do something they're entitled to for no reason at all tends to work at best for people who've spend too much of their life in the army.Your Gribnit impersonation is getting better.
Fuck off to the garage.
LOLGF
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@acrow said in It has started:
Hydro you can't really build any more of, in Europe.
Yes and no, I think. Big dams that flood entire valleys, you're right, that's not gonna happen. But you can still do a lot of small "on stream" plants that don't have as much impact, and that have the added benefit of being feasible even on fairly calm rivers (and sometimes even when river levels are low, though of course they will be affected).
Of course a single one is not going to matter, but then again this is exactly the same for oil & gas, a single well is not going to matter. And in the same way as oil & gas projects are (relatively) low-investment projects (compared to e.g. nuclear), they are relatively cheap to build.
Also of course they are not going to solve everything and have some drawbacks, but they could play a role and contribute a bit. And I think generally speaking it sounds smarter to me to diversify as much as possible the sources, to avoid any specific issue that targets one source creating too much of a problem.
