WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else
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@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
The days of having a graphics server in the hardware sense and desktops being kinda thin clients to it is old now, but that was what X was designed for - and I suspect Wayland and friends ignore all that. Even if it has some advantages (e.g. letting you access your machine from another without futzing around with VNC)
X is sort of backwards to what you say. The rendering is done locally, on the machine that you're at. The remote machine, where the application runs, sends drawing commands. If you were doing heavy graphics, you'd want the local machine to be beefy (and not a thin clienty thing). E.g. a silicon graphics workstation or so.
X terminology seems a bit backward in that sense. If you have two machines, local_desktop and remove_server, you run the X server on local_desktop. The X server handles drawing and displaying, so talking to your display, graphics card etc.. If you run an application on remote_server, you can make it connect to the X server. These days, you'd probably tunnel through SSH, but that's not necessary. In this example, the application on remote_server is the client. It sends commands to the server and receives data about events and so on in return.
OpenGL was originally designed towards this. Remote program would send OpenGL commands to your machine. Your machine would execute those commands, potentially on your local GPU. (It still works sort of, but shifting large amounts of data via the network or even just a local socket is not a good idea(tm), which is why stuff like direct rendering exists.)
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@cvi ah TIL.
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@cvi which is also why OpenGL sucked massively on the (not uncommon) setup @Arantor described: beefy Unix/Linux multi-user server with thin-client terminals. The GPUs of the thin clients (at least those I used) were underpowered for simple 3D stuff any ordinary desktop wouldn’t have blinked about.
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@cvi said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
shifting large amounts of data via the network or even just a local socket is not a good idea
On unix, a local socket is no different than a file, so I don't see how that would be very different then other means
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@TimeBandit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@cvi said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
shifting large amounts of data via the network or even just a local socket is not a good idea
On unix, a local socket is no different than a file, so I don't see how that would be very different then other means
The better performing one is shared memory.
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@TimeBandit Sockets are probably better than plain files, because the data can stay in RAM. But there's a lot of overhead in terms of serializing commands and copying data around. A draw call would be something like Application -> Serialize to socket -> Deserialize from socket -> X11 server -> GPU driver -> GPU and so on. You'd be crossing into kernel space twice (once when writing to the socket, once when issuing commands to the GPU driver). The whole thing is rather bad if you need to shift large-ish amounts of data (e.g., stream textures or vertex data).
With direct rendering, you're talking more directly to the GPU driver, something like Application [via OpenGL/Vulkan]-> GPU driver -> GPU and so on. If you're doing things reasonably (e.g., not mega-ancient OpenGL), you ask your graphics API to provide you buffers to load data into, which ideally avoids having to copy that data around more than absolutely necessary (e.g., from RAM to VRAM, though mapping in VRAM into the program's address space can be done). There are also fewer transitions into kernel space (and I believe drivers often try to minimize them further in their user-land components).
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@PleegWat afaict, all the frameworks building on top of it are actually rendering stuff themselves and just blitting bitmaps to X anyway. Except for some stuff directly interacting with X and looking like it’s from the 80s, nothing draws UI elements by sending lines, rectangles, etc. over the X protocol.
Part of that is because any time someone suggested moving the rendering of those complex things to the server, there was a bunch of screeching that clients should be using Wayland instead. Direct drawing on a framebuffer or twiddling the graphics driver is only efficient when you have things memory mapped into the client process. Otherwise it is ghastly slow. But direct framebuffer access has many complications.
Many of the real problems with Wayland came from the way that its authors didn't understand what was good about X, and so made a bunch of really terrible design decisions. Some of those things have been patched over with "optional" protocols, except that for a number of things there are multiple competing protocols...
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@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Arantor I've heard it said the problem with X is that all individual draw operations are sent to the server (the device which does the rendering, your desktop), possibly as blocking calls, and that ends up a performance bottleneck.
They're normally non-blocking calls unless you need a response (such as the content of a property). All the drawing calls are async; the client library batches them. X was designed to be reasonably fast on a 10base2 network with latency in the range of 100ms and endpoint processors having clock speeds less than 100MHz...
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
protocols
Goddamn I have a nervous tick when I hear that word now, after listening to a talk from someone about them, and the arguing about how necessary an "optional" protocol needs to be to be included by default. Like, the fuck, doesn't optional mean it's not critically required? Fuck, man!
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Arantor I've heard it said the problem with X is that all individual draw operations are sent to the server (the device which does the rendering, your desktop), possibly as blocking calls, and that ends up a performance bottleneck.
They're normally non-blocking calls unless you need a response (such as the content of a property). All the drawing calls are async; the client library batches them. X was designed to be reasonably fast on a 10base2 network with latency in the range of 100ms and endpoint processors having clock speeds less than 100MHz... and framebuffers still measured in kilobytes
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
But direct framebuffer access has many complications.
These days you wouldn't really need that, most things run through a compositor anyway. So each client gets a private buffer. In X, there's a separate compositor which grabs all the image contents and puts them on screen.
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I honestly thought this was hard drive branching out first.
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Ah, there it is.
@boomzilla said in I hate printers, with a passion:
@BernieTheBernie said in I hate printers, with a passion:
This could go into many many threads her
But as noted, only two so far! #RookieNumbers
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@DogsB You will own only one HP printer and will be happy about it
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@TimeBandit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@DogsB You will own only one
HPprinter and it will identify as HP and will be happy about it
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Status: Somehow this guy managed to completely rip out Microsoft Terminal Services Client (aka Remote Desktop Connection) from his Windows 11 install. Like, gone, no file associations, no exe or dll files, zilch.
Hoping a
dism
will get him back otherwise it's off to the rebuild station with this joker!
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@Tsaukpaetra Some users are very ... creative.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra Some users are very ... creative.
They deserve nuke/pave operations.
: But my files!
:
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra Some users are very ... creative.
They deserve nuke/pave operations.
: But my files!
:That's effectively what I told him. If it doesn't fix, you will be getting a rebuild.
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
: But my files!
: You did back them up, right?
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
: But my files!
: You did back them up, right?
Tell me you’ve never done user support without telling me
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@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
: But my files!
: You did back them up, right?
Tell me you’ve never done user support without telling me
: My last ten years on this computer!
: And I'll refer you to SOP document 4, subsection 12, which details that anything considered important to the functioning of your position shall be kept under regular tested backup. Oh, you've never seen this? Ah, I'll just check up on your compliance training, which says you affirmed having read them, oh, two months ago?
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@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Tell me you’ve never done user support without telling me
You seem to think that question wasn't rhetorical and sarcastic. (Hint: it was.)
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Status: Lol
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Why does Microsoft want Windows 11 to suck as much as absolutely possible? Seriously, what is the motivation here?
In Explorer, the right-click context menu has all the useful functions hidden under "Other Options". You can get back the old Windows 10 style context menu by adding a key to the registry, but, every now and then Windows 11 deletes it.
What.The.Fucking.Fuck.
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@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
You can get back the old Windows 10 style context menu by adding a key to the registry, but, every now and then Windows 11 deletes it.
(It hasn't deleted that key. Yet.)
Don't know if I've mentioned it here yet, but W11 seems to have fucked up the print dialog. I set my preference in my program to Landscape (printer default is portrait). Preview is fine. Click Print and W11 says "fuck you, I'm using Portrait". Works properly in Win10.
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@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Why does Microsoft want Windows 11 to suck as much as absolutely possible?
To follow the trend of all previous versions of Windows
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
You can get back the old Windows 10 style context menu by adding a key to the registry, but, every now and then Windows 11 deletes it.
(It hasn't deleted that key. Yet.)
Same for me; it's been the old context menu for almost the entire life of this machine. Haven't had it revert yet.
Don't know if I've mentioned it here yet, but W11 seems to have fucked up the print dialog. I set my preference in my program to Landscape (printer default is portrait). Preview is fine. Click Print and W11 says "fuck you, I'm using Portrait". Works properly in Win10.
The new Print dialog or the old one? I haven't had this issue, but I told the system to prefer the old one for basically the same reason as I told it to use the old context menu.
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At some point someone is going to do a cost benefit analysis: do I want to pay for antivirus that will hamper the performance of my PC and might make it unusable or risk getting infected but have a mostly functional pc.
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@DogsB that cost benefit analysis was done by your corporate IT. There is no limit to how much antivirus crap is allowed to prevent you from getting anything done, as long as they can check a cover-your-ass box somewhere in their policy.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@DogsB that cost benefit analysis was done by your corporate IT. There is no limit to how much antivirus crap is allowed to prevent you from getting anything done, as long as they can check a cover-your-ass box somewhere in their policy.
The box that they will undoubtedly need, when catastrophic security breach caused by their retarded polices happen.
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@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@DogsB that cost benefit analysis was done by your corporate IT. There is no limit to how much antivirus crap is allowed to prevent you from getting anything done, as long as they can check a cover-your-ass box somewhere in their policy.
The box that they will undoubtedly need, when catastrophic security breach caused by their retarded polices happen.
Fun things like required corporate AV product deciding that HTTPS is too hard for downloading definitions and that it should do everything unsecured and unverified. In the NT kernel. (I forget which one(s) that was...)
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@DogsB that cost benefit analysis was done by your corporate IT. There is no limit to how much antivirus crap is allowed to prevent you from getting anything done, as long as they can check a cover-your-ass box somewhere in their policy.
The box that they will undoubtedly need, when catastrophic security breach caused by their retarded polices happen.
Fun things like required corporate AV product deciding that HTTPS is too hard for downloading definitions and that it should do everything unsecured and unverified. In the NT kernel. (I forget which one(s) that was...)
AV products that won't even install without hoop-jumping because they have an MD5 signed package and cannot be bothered to produce one with a newer signature.
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@DogsB Why is so much anti-malware software just as bad, if not worse, than the malware it's ostensibly protecting against?
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
The new Print dialog or the old one? I haven't had this issue, but I told the system to prefer the old one for basically the same reason as I told it to use the old context menu.
It's probably the new one - since it looks different. I didn't know there was an option...
edit: Yup. I just set the magic registry key (
reg add "HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Print\UnifiedPrintDialog" /v "PreferLegacyPrintDialog" /d 1 /t REG_DWORD /f
) to get the old dialog, and printing works as expected. I also found others reporting the same issue in .Net apps.
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
the magic registry key (
reg add "HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Print\UnifiedPrintDialog" /v "PreferLegacyPrintDialog" /d 1 /t REG_DWORD /f
)So obvious and discoverable!
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
the magic registry key (
reg add "HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Print\UnifiedPrintDialog" /v "PreferLegacyPrintDialog" /d 1 /t REG_DWORD /f
)So obvious and discoverable!
Intuitive interfacing at its finest.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
the magic registry key (
reg add "HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Print\UnifiedPrintDialog" /v "PreferLegacyPrintDialog" /d 1 /t REG_DWORD /f
)So obvious and discoverable!
Clearly far superior to having to edit some text file under
/etc
.
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@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
the magic registry key (
reg add "HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Print\UnifiedPrintDialog" /v "PreferLegacyPrintDialog" /d 1 /t REG_DWORD /f
)So obvious and discoverable!
Clearly far superior to having to edit some text file under
/etc
.Especially if it isn't really a text file and instead an api disguised as a text file.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@DogsB Why is so much anti-malware software just as bad, if not worse, than the malware it's ostensibly protecting against?
Because it was written by the virus writers who wanted to go legit
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@DogsB said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
At some point someone is going to do a cost benefit analysis: do I want to pay for antivirus that will hamper the performance of my PC and might make it unusable or risk getting infected but have a mostly functional pc.
20 something years ago when I worked for Siemens Medical Solutions... The ISO 9000 guys were expected at our site. Siemens told us to make sure that they enjoy their work, e.g. always have hot coffee and snacks ready for them, etc.
And then there was special point where the head of the Quality Team told us to make sure that our PCs have best performance when we had to show them whatever on our machine - close all unnecessary programs.
And switch off the virus scanner.
Yes.
Reality went beyond Dilbert level satire.
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@BernieTheBernie said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
20 something years ago when I worked for Siemens Medical Solutions... The ISO 9000 guys were expected at our site. Siemens told us to make sure that they enjoy their work, e.g. always have hot coffee and snacks ready for them, etc.
And then there was special point where the head of the Quality Team told us to make sure that our PCs have best performance when we had to show them whatever on our machine - close all unnecessary programs.
And switch off the virus scanner.
Yes.
Reality went beyond Dilbert level satire.Reminds me of a story I was told just today, about a response to a security incident. Apparently, the security incident response team hired a company to do vulnerability testing and log scanning... but didn't tell anyone. The company promptly emailed miscellaneous sysadmins to ask them to give them root access without much further explanation beyond "in relation to the security incident", only to promptly be told to go to hell because granting a bunch of random outsiders that sort of access to things with properly sensitive data on it definitely would be a security incident!
At least they could say for sure that the training on resisting phishing worked as it should.
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
but didn't tell anyone
As it should be. Only a few key players should know, for best situation management.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
but didn't tell anyone
As it should be. Only a few key players should know, for best situation management.
Shhhh! It's a secret! Mustn't tell
the enemystaffsame picture...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
but didn't tell anyone
for best situation management.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@DogsB Why is so much anti-malware software just as bad, if not worse, than the malware it's ostensibly protecting against?
Because it doesn't have to be good, it only needs good salesmen to convince clueless managos that it checks the ass-covering box.
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
but didn't tell anyone
As it should be. Only a few key players should know, for best situation management.
Shhhh! It's a secret! Mustn't tell
the enemystaffsame picture...It's a hostile work environment.
This activity merely serves to (try to) turn the antagonistical focus outward.
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@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
managos
Managers who are fruits? Managers who are sweet and juicy? Managers who are secret Trump supporters?
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
managos
Managers who are fruits? Managers who are sweet and juicy? Managers who are secret Trump supporters?
I call them managos frequently. Sounds spanish. And I hate mangos.
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@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I hate mangos.
I'd say, more for me, but I shouldn't eat them (or most other fruit) any more, because of the sugar. However, by sheer coincidence (I made it before I saw your post), I am currently drinking Republic of Tea mango Ceylon tea.