Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations
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@Rhywden you may have your edit history hidden, but it's real obvious which part was edited.
also:@Rhywden said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I don't see why you're complaining when I merely used his own advice.
the 32768 character limit is insufficient to insert the correct number of .
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I certainly don't have a full picture on WTF is going on cause I haven't been round these parts in a while and I'm trying to piece things together.
@apapadimoulis The only, unsolicited, free nickle worth of advice(s) I would give is: "If you meet a jerk, that person is a jerk. If every person you meet is a jerk, you may be the jerk. Apply to all users." "Free speech according the US Constitution doesn't mean you get to yell and shit on my living room carpet, Free Speech according to the US Constitution means you can tell the government to go fuck itself, with a giant purple cactus, and use Lotus notes; they can't imprison you for that."
Maybe the forums needs the Bambi rule for the short term. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Or better, "If you think you can't express a difference of opinion without being a dick, re-write your post to not be a dick."
I know being an asshole is a feature of these forums but it seems things have reached the natural conclusion of "Everyone is an asshole and they ate Taco Bell!" Everyone is full of shit and it's leaking EVERYWHERE.
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@topspin said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@pie_flavor said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin But a newspaper is a bad example, because there is a big difference between a space built for you to talk in and a space built for others to talk in.
Both have house rules and decide what they want and what they don't. Invoking freedom of speech when you get told "this is an IT forum, keep your harassment of people who like pineapple on pizza out of here" is just bullshit. That we even have a garage instead of 4chan wild west all on the main forum is proof of that.
One issue I see is that people have different standards for what it means to be an "asshole". For Ben of lamented memory, any discussion he didn't like was proof that one was a bigot and needed to be purged. Others have much more tolerant attitudes. And thus, if you have a hard "don't be an 'asshole'" policy, you're at the mercy of the strictest of the moderators.
And on the flip side, you can be bullied, harassed, and threatened without repercussions.
Just like anything, you can only be bullied, harassed, or threatened to the degree that you hang around. Moderation policies (beyond very heavy handed "on topic only" moderation), IMX, don't actually stop such things. All they do is change who gets bullied and how.
So you've got two options. Either make a hard "this is a tech site, only tech stuff can be posted, and only the most anodyne and helpful stuff" rule and enforce it to the hilt, no playing favorites, no exceptions or realize that there are jerks out there and try to clean up the worst of it by shoving it into a separate, mostly hidden category and only deleting the absolutely most abusive (ie doxxing, true threats, and things like child porn or other flat out illegal stuff). I know which one I'd prefer.
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@sloosecannon said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Rhywden said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall Actually, what it does actually change is "Who's in and who's out". Basically, you're favouring assholes over non-assholes to put it succinctly.
That policy writ large kind of explains your country.
This last sentence is pure garage bait. Please cease it at once.
Before you can get to any of that, you have to define what it means to be an asshole. Which has huge issues of its own, and which I don't trust any of you (speaking of the forum at large or even much of the world at large) to do with any measure of sanity.
@pie_flavor said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Rhywden said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
That policy writ large kind of explains your country.
Boy, talk about Exhibit Fucking A. Here I was posting about how you did it in a thread you directed me to, and you go and do it in the thread I'm complaining about you doing it in.
You are a gem of a human being.Guys, guys. I'd flag for moving to the Garage but I don't think that's really the process right now. Could ya keep it civil in the "let's figure out the future of the forums" thread, please?
I thought that I was being civil in calling out bad (to me) behavior. In a case where even the standard rules said that was over the line. I certainly had a lot more personal of things that I wanted to say, but refrained.
Edit: I will also note that this very thing is evidence for my point. That "civility" is too broad a standard, with too many disparities in understandings, to base moderation judgements on safely, unless you're willing to go real hard core and enforce super-heavy-handed policies. Which, IMO, are just as bad as the "incivility" on display here, at least for the purposes I come to the forum for.
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@sloosecannon said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@sloosecannon said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Rhywden said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall Actually, what it does actually change is "Who's in and who's out". Basically, you're favouring assholes over non-assholes to put it succinctly.
That policy writ large kind of explains your country.
This last sentence is pure garage bait. Please cease it at once.
Before you can get to any of that, you have to define what it means to be an asshole. Which has huge issues of its own, and which I don't trust any of you (speaking of the forum at large or even much of the world at large) to do with any measure of sanity.
@pie_flavor said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Rhywden said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
That policy writ large kind of explains your country.
Boy, talk about Exhibit Fucking A. Here I was posting about how you did it in a thread you directed me to, and you go and do it in the thread I'm complaining about you doing it in.
You are a gem of a human being.Guys, guys. I'd flag for moving to the Garage but I don't think that's really the process right now. Could ya keep it civil in the "let's figure out the future of the forums" thread, please?
I thought that I was being civil in calling out bad (to me) behavior. In a case where even the standard rules said that was over the line. I certainly had a lot more personal of things that I wanted to say, but refrained.
Edit: I will also note that this very thing is evidence for my point. That "civility" is too broad a standard, with too many disparities in understandings, to base moderation judgements on safely, unless you're willing to go real hard core and enforce super-heavy-handed policies. Which, IMO, are just as bad as the "incivility" on display here, at least for the purposes I come to the forum for.
Oops, I meant to include Rhywden in there not you. My bad....
Phew. For a moment there I was really really confused. I've done my level best not to name names or call out individuals who weren't already participating, as well as keeping things constructive. I'll admit to getting het up somewhat easily, but that was as anodyne as I could think of how to respond. Which I'm not doing in the future--my policy will just be downvote and flag.
Edit: And I'm going to do my best to be even handed with that. No more giving garage bait the benefit of the doubt as to its garage-bait nature just because I might agree with the idea.
Second Edit: And I do ask that people do the same for me. I'd especially like people to either call me out or message me if they think I've crossed the line. Otherwise I can be a bit imperceptive of that sort of thing.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Phew. For a moment there I was really really confused. I've done my level best not to name names or call out individuals who weren't already participating, as well as keeping things constructive. I'll admit to getting het up somewhat easily, but that was as anodyne as I could think of how to respond. Which I'm not doing in the future--my policy will just be downvote and flag.
Yeah, I personally feel like that was calmly worded enough
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Edit: And I'm going to do my best to be even handed with that. No more giving garage bait the benefit of the doubt as to its garage-bait nature just because I might agree with the idea.
Yeah. My rule has been if I flag something, I usually make sure to flag the opposing side as well, because almost always if there's an argument, it's caused by at least two people.
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@sloosecannon said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Phew. For a moment there I was really really confused. I've done my level best not to name names or call out individuals who weren't already participating, as well as keeping things constructive. I'll admit to getting het up somewhat easily, but that was as anodyne as I could think of how to respond. Which I'm not doing in the future--my policy will just be downvote and flag.
Yeah, I personally feel like that was calmly worded enough
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Edit: And I'm going to do my best to be even handed with that. No more giving garage bait the benefit of the doubt as to its garage-bait nature just because I might agree with the idea.
Yeah. My rule has been if I flag something, I usually make sure to flag the opposing side as well, because almost always if there's an argument, it's caused by at least two people.
TBH, I've very rarely flagged posts. Mainly because I just scroll past it and ignore it, for the most part. But I have been guilty of noticing one side's (whichever one I disagree with more) inflammatory remarks more than the other. That's something I'm trying to do better at.
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@topspin said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@pie_flavor said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin But a newspaper is a bad example, because there is a big difference between a space built for you to talk in and a space built for others to talk in.
Both have house rules and decide what they want and what they don't. Invoking freedom of speech when you get told "this is an IT forum, keep your harassment of people who like pineapple on pizza out of here" is just bullshit. That we even have a garage instead of 4chan wild west all on the main forum is proof of that.
All of them but #5 apply here.
Give #5 time. It's coming.
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@topspin said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@pie_flavor said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin But a newspaper is a bad example, because there is a big difference between a space built for you to talk in and a space built for others to talk in.
Both have house rules and decide what they want and what they don't. Invoking freedom of speech when you get told "this is an IT forum, keep your harassment of people who like pineapple on pizza out of here" is just bullshit. That we even have a garage instead of 4chan wild west all on the main forum is proof of that.
One issue I see is that people have different standards for what it means to be an "asshole". For Ben of lamented memory, any discussion he didn't like was proof that one was a bigot and needed to be purged. Others have much more tolerant attitudes. And thus, if you have a hard "don't be an 'asshole'" policy, you're at the mercy of the strictest of the moderators.
And on the flip side, you can be bullied, harassed, and threatened without repercussions.
Where?
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@Polygeekery said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@pie_flavor said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@topspin But a newspaper is a bad example, because there is a big difference between a space built for you to talk in and a space built for others to talk in.
Both have house rules and decide what they want and what they don't. Invoking freedom of speech when you get told "this is an IT forum, keep your harassment of people who like pineapple on pizza out of here" is just bullshit. That we even have a garage instead of 4chan wild west all on the main forum is proof of that.
One issue I see is that people have different standards for what it means to be an "asshole". For Ben of lamented memory, any discussion he didn't like was proof that one was a bigot and needed to be purged. Others have much more tolerant attitudes. And thus, if you have a hard "don't be an 'asshole'" policy, you're at the mercy of the strictest of the moderators.
And on the flip side, you can be bullied, harassed, and threatened without repercussions.
Where?
I guess back-and-forth verbal fighting equals no repercussions. Just don't think about jeffing, that doesn't count as a repercussion because it doesn't affect anything.
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@Rhywden said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
moderators (as in: There's a reason why those rods in nuclear reactors are also called thus).
no, the control rods are called control rods. neutron moderators increase the neutron cross-section of the fuel so as to enable criticality, and in most reactors this moderator is the water the reactor is immersed in.
edit: if 1986 taught us anything, it’s that putting a moderator on your control rods is a very bad idea indeed.
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@Polygeekery said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Zecc said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
A-hem.
Where?
Ha! I honestly hadn't noticed the second part that you highlighted in yellow until just now I thought you were referring to a post I had made between when I said what you were quoting.
You may not believe it, but that was an honest mistake.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
So you've got two options. Either make a hard "this is a tech site, only tech stuff can be posted, and only the most anodyne and helpful stuff" rule and enforce it to the hilt, no playing favorites, no exceptions or realize that there are jerks out there and try to clean up the worst of it by shoving it into a separate, mostly hidden category and only deleting the absolutely most abusive (ie doxxing, true threats, and things like child porn or other flat out illegal stuff). I know which one I'd prefer.
This is something we'll discuss in the Sekret nomination talks. Not here (in this thread), but anyone is welcome to open a new one and discuss it civily.
My thoughts are this. You raise a good point with "two options", and it's a situation I've seen other communities (offline, online) try to address.
I've seen some conference communities try to address the "jerks" by going so far as to regulate/restrict unsanctioned activities (like, the discussions at the hotel bar). They ultimately wanted to eliminate the "old boys club" culture as it were, and it worked.
However, "the old boys club" was comprised of the speakers that the majority of attendees came to see, and the attitude of "watch what you say at the bar with your friends" was equally unwelcome. There was a middle ground, and I think the organizers should have just asked "the old boys club" to be more considerate, as it made enough attendees felt unwelcome.
On the other hand, having a community-sanctioned den of iniquity seems just as problematic. That might be happened here, but I don't know. There is a middle ground, somewhere.
As a community, we need to accept that some people will simply not be welcome as a result of their on- and/or off-site activities. We will not come up with specific examples, because then just ends up like a law school discussion from the text book, and it might even encourage "jerks" to push things to that line.
In all cases, banning regulars must be done with careful consideration, consensus, and support of the administrators. Temporary bans are interesting, but I don't know what those do as far as a community is concerned; I worry it's seen as a badge of honor or something. In any case, this is why finding administrators who can work together is important.
And speaking of being heavy-handed, I deleting of stuff in this topic in response to some flags. It seemed off-topic and uncivil. Deleting is fun for now, but I may grow tired of it.
If it feels like I keep deleting the same members's posts, I may try out the ban function to save me time. I don't think you get notified of which posts are deleted and I'm not providing a reason. I let my feelings and temperament in the moment guide my moderation.
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@Polygeekery said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Polygeekery said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Where?
Ha! I honestly hadn't noticed the second part that you highlighted in yellow until just now I thought you were referring to a post I had made between when I said what you were quoting.
You may not believe it, but that was an honest mistake.
I believe you. I've noticed the yellow highlight isn't that apparent in some screens.
Edit: I hadn't noticed this thread was locked. Sorry for the mod abuse. It was not my intention to talk after @apapadimoulis. Also, my thanks for the heads-up to member of the @Gaska group who shall remain nameless.
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@Zecc said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I hadn't noticed this thread was locked. Sorry for the mod abuse. It was not my intention to talk after @apapadimoulis.
Groveling acknowledged, and accepted!