Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@Bulb I'm not saying that it isn't. I'm just saying that some of the excess deaths (including traffic deaths) in the US are attributable to something other than that. Not directly nor indirectly. The numbers are a lot smaller than for COVID, of course, but they're real. But it's not really a topic for in here.
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@boomzilla where do we talk about That which is Restrained beneath the Pentagon?
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@Gribnit You're restrained beneath the Pentagon.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
too coarse to indicate which measures helped and which actually hurt
And actually confounding those two totally different things is what they really intend to do.
"See: Covid was sooo baaad: so many people died" (because of governments' miserable handling).
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@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage It includes even more than that. A bit shoddy reporting by the BBC it seems - the WHO news item and data presentation actually mentions this explicitly:
Excess mortality includes deaths associated with COVID-19 directly (due to the disease) or indirectly (due to the pandemic’s impact on health systems and society) [...]
That's a fine pair of brass balls on the the WHO.
"Indirect excess mortality" is nothing else than a polite way of saying "people died because everyone lost their collective shit over Covid and implemented a bunch of ultimately useless, but otherwise quite harmful 'interventions', with the WHO cheering them on".
The two should absolutely not be conflated. The "indirect" death toll, per these numbers is twice the "direct" death toll. This strongly suggests the "cure" was worse than the disease.
There was nothing inevitable about the pandemic response, the governments (and in many cases, large portions of societies - including members of this very forum) chose to disregard the entirety of pre-2020 pandemic experience, knowledge, and planning. We're only now starting to fully apprehend just how utterly insane that was - mostly because it's only now becoming permissible to actually talk about it.
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@Gribnit said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla where do we talk about That which is Restrained beneath the Pentagon?
The first rule... no I've said too much already.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
"Indirect excess mortality" is nothing else than a polite way of saying "people died because everyone lost their collective shit over Covid and implemented a bunch of ultimately useless, but otherwise quite harmful 'interventions', with the WHO cheering them on".
The two should absolutely not be conflated. The "indirect" death toll, per these numbers is twice the "direct" death toll. This strongly suggests the "cure" was worse than the disease.This assumes that 1) these "indirect" numbers are a direct result of the "interventions" and not an indirect result of what happened due to covid, and 2) that without these measures the "direct" covid numbers would have stayed the same.
Which does not follow from just looking at "direct" vs. "indirect" numbers.
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@topspin No, it doesn't. Fortunately, we don't have to go solely by the numbers because we just lived through the whole thing.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin No, it doesn't. Fortunately, we don't have to go solely by the numbers because we just lived through the whole thing.
: We're still living it. I heard in the radio news this morning that we still have Corona deaths among the elderly. Apparently Omicron-2 is only now making its way through them. Says MTV news.
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@acrow We're gonna have Corona deaths among the elderly until we run out of elderly, because we sure as hell aren't gonna run out of Corona.
The disease is endemic and was probably endemic by late 2020, if not sooner. It's not like we've never had respiratory tract infections before 2020, and - yes - those killed people every year (and were much less skewed towards the old and infirm).
What is over, in my neck of the woods, at least, is the State of Pandemic - a purely human creation that, in my view, ended up being worse than the disease it was meant to combat. The primary reason for this is that, rather than seek to minimise disruption to societal functioning, we basically upended everything - starting with normal healthcare provision - and continued to do so after it turned out that (a) the disease wasn't nearly as dangerous as we initially thought; (b) the preventive measures weren't working at containing it.
Honestly, the closest parallel I can think of is Russia's current "military operation" in Ukraine. They miscalculated and now proceed to double down, despite the fact that the possible payoff (status quo ante bellum) is in no way worth the cost.
The important thing, to my mind, is to ensure that this never happens again - in my lifetime, at least (future generations will have to take care of themselves).
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The important thing, to my mind, is to ensure that this never happens again - in my lifetime, at least (future generations will have to take care of themselves).
Hurry up with this ensuring, you have time until autumn at best.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Hurry up with this ensuring, you have time until autumn at best.
No we don't.
The plans for severe winter of illness and death are already in motion.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Hurry up with this ensuring, you have time until autumn at best.
No we don't.
Yeah, we get this preparatory fear mongering here too. We'll see how much our government will bend to please covidians. They did a lot of insane stuff in last 2 years, but not all that insane compared to the rest, and enforcement was lax, as always.
Seems like you are already fucked, though.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yeah, we get this preparatory fear mongering here too. We'll see how much our government will bend to please covidians. They did a lot of insane stuff in last 2 years, but not all that insane compared to the rest, and enforcement was lax, as always.
It helps that covid concern in Poland is primarily coded "opposition" (our opposition being keen to ape the West in all things - the dumber, the better).
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yeah, we get this preparatory fear mongering here too. We'll see how much our government will bend to please covidians. They did a lot of insane stuff in last 2 years, but not all that insane compared to the rest, and enforcement was lax, as always.
It helps that covid concern in Poland is primarily coded "opposition" (our opposition being keen to ape the West in all things - the dumber, the better).
True. As much as I despise current ruling party, I wonder what would opposition do to us during the pandemic if they had the reins. Those are not happy thoughts.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yeah, we get this preparatory fear mongering here too. We'll see how much our government will bend to please covidians. They did a lot of insane stuff in last 2 years, but not all that insane compared to the rest, and enforcement was lax, as always.
It helps that covid concern in Poland is primarily coded "opposition" (our opposition being keen to ape the West in all things - the dumber, the better).
True. As much as I despise current ruling party, I wonder what would opposition do to us during the pandemic if they had the reins. Those are not happy thoughts.
The healthcare situation probably wouldn't be worse, because that would actually be bloody hard to do (in terms of overall excess mortality we're the worst in Europe). Everything else, however...
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yeah, we get this preparatory fear mongering here too. We'll see how much our government will bend to please covidians. They did a lot of insane stuff in last 2 years, but not all that insane compared to the rest, and enforcement was lax, as always.
It helps that covid concern in Poland is primarily coded "opposition" (our opposition being keen to ape the West in all things - the dumber, the better).
True. As much as I despise current ruling party, I wonder what would opposition do to us during the pandemic if they had the reins. Those are not happy thoughts.
The healthcare situation probably wouldn't be worse, because that would actually be bloody hard to do (in terms of overall excess mortality we're the worst in Europe). Everything else, however...
I'm not sure if there would be any difference in excess mortality under different government. Our healthcare is corrupt to the core, criminally negligent and shielded from any responsibility for malpractice.
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@MrL I don't know if a different government would adopt a different approach, nor whether it would alter overall healthcare outcomes significantly. If it did, it would probably be for the better, because - like I said - making things worse is possible, but difficult.
No prizes for guessing who had the best results in terms of overall excess mortality.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
No prizes for guessing who had the best results in terms of overall excess mortality.
San Escobar.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
No prizes for guessing who had the best results in terms of overall excess mortality.
San Escobar.
Good guess. But wrong.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
No prizes for guessing who had the best results in terms of overall excess mortality.
San Escobar.
Good guess. But wrong.
Australia, surely.
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@MrL I actually wouldn't know about that (I'd need to check). I was still operating in the "in Europe" frame, established in my original statement, and Australia isn't in Europe.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Australia isn't in Europe.
Despite all the lederhosen and waltzes and so on?
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Australia isn't in Europe.
And I'm very glad it isn't. Not that I have anything against our upside-down members, but I definitely wouldn't want to encounter most of the animals that live there.
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@Zerosquare Yeah, that's a whole lotta critters I'm glad to have on the other side of an ocean, or three.
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@Zerosquare Having the upside-down mountains over here wouldn't be too bad. You could first ski down the normal slope, and then ski down the Australian one. Never have to take a lift again.
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@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Australia isn't in Europe.
Maybe somebody should tell Eurovision.
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@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GOG said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Australia isn't in Europe.
Maybe somebody should tell Eurovision.
I don’t know what you’re talking about.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Our healthcare is corrupt to the core, criminally negligent and shielded from any responsibility for malpractice.
Wait. I thought you live in Poland.
But you describe Germany.
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@BernieTheBernie said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Wait. I thought you live in Poland.
But you describe Germany.
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@Luhmann and ... what about ... ?
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@BernieTheBernie
healthcare is the best! they have the greatest software! ever!
just in case the boss is listening in ...
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@BernieTheBernie said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Our healthcare is corrupt to the core, criminally negligent and shielded from any responsibility for malpractice.
Wait. I thought you live in Poland.
But you describe Germany.He describes many countries. In fact I am wondering whether there is any he isn't describing.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@BernieTheBernie said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Our healthcare is corrupt to the core, criminally negligent and shielded from any responsibility for malpractice.
Wait. I thought you live in Poland.
But you describe Germany.He describes many countries. In fact I am wondering whether there is any he isn't describing.
The future nation @Izziontopia will be the pillar of salt and light in the Carribean
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@izzion said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The future nation @Izziontopia will be the pillar of salt
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@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@izzion said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The future nation @Izziontopia will be the pillar of salt
Well duh, gotta pay off my private island somehow
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@izzion said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The future nation @Izziontopia will be the pillar of salt and light in the Carribean
Does your future nation need any DBAs?
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@izzion said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
The future nation @Izziontopia will be the pillar of salt and light in the Carribean
Does your future nation need any DBAs?
That probably depends on what size of a harem he's aiming for.
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@izzion said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@BernieTheBernie said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Our healthcare is corrupt to the core, criminally negligent and shielded from any responsibility for malpractice.
Wait. I thought you live in Poland.
But you describe Germany.He describes many countries. In fact I am wondering whether there is any he isn't describing.
The future nation @Izziontopia will be the pillar of salt and light in the Carribean
So you're planning on getting a wife out of Kingston and making her turn around on purpose?
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@BernieTheBernie said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Our healthcare is corrupt to the core, criminally negligent and shielded from any responsibility for malpractice.
Wait. I thought you live in Poland.
But you describe Germany.
He describes many countries. In fact I am wondering whether there is any he isn't describing.There are countries without any real healthcare system (at least country-wide). Those are the only ones without deep and wide healthcare system problems.
<insert the appropriate meme, or ask you healthcare provider to get an appointment with meme specialist>
Now, seriously, this is the reason I personally don't like this kind of shit-talk. It can be (and quite often is) much, much worse.
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
My bugs never killed anyone.
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@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@BernieTheBernie said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Our healthcare is corrupt to the core, criminally negligent and shielded from any responsibility for malpractice.
Wait. I thought you live in Poland.
But you describe Germany.
He describes many countries. In fact I am wondering whether there is any he isn't describing.There are countries without any real healthcare system (at least country-wide). Those are the only ones without deep and wide healthcare system problems.
<insert the appropriate meme, or ask you healthcare provider to get an appointment with meme specialist>
But at least their taxes are lower!
Now, seriously, this is the reason I personally don't like this kind of shit-talk. It can be (and quite often is) much, much worse.
Seriously, wouldn't talk about it quite so much if a large-ish percentage of our salary didn't ostensibly go toward the upkeep of the non-care.
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
I don't believe anyone is ever forced to buy my software on pain of a tax-evasion conviction.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
My bugs never killed anyone.
that you know of.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
My bugs never killed anyone.
Are you sure? Depression and frustration are some of the most common causes of suicide. Suicide investigators don't often do root cause analysis beyond the immediate physical method, so your impact on the world at large may still lurk hidden in the statistics.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
My bugs never killed anyone.
I don't believe any trains have crashed as a result of mine.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
My bugs never killed anyone.
that you know of.
Given the software I write, if a bug ever killed anyone, they have only themselves to blame.
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@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
My bugs never killed anyone.
Mine could.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gribnit You're restrained beneath the Pentagon.
Only as long as the funding holds up...
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@MrL said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Kamil-Podlesak said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Also, as a software developers, I believe we should refrain from throwing any stones.
My bugs never killed anyone.
I don't believe any trains have crashed as a result of mine.
But what about the mounting evidence?