Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
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@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Case in point: I believe the reason we don't have mandatory vaccines in France (though we have a more and more restrictive "vaccine pass", but it's still not quite the same thing, morally speaking) is that there is a presidential election coming up, and Macron knows that such mandatory vaccination measure would cost him some votes (more than other measures, see my comment elsewhere (?) about his emmerder les non-vaccinés comment).
The reason for not making the vaccine straight-up mandatory is more likely one or all of the following:
- The order could be successfully challenged in court of some level. And the consequences of government losing the court case would be severe; egg on face all around.
- The person giving the order would also take responsibility for any and all consequences that pop up later. Like if it turns out to give everyone kidney cancer. And everyone now getting hammered by the myocarditis could sue.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
- The order could be successfully challenged in court of some level.
The courts are supposed to say something along the lines of “this looks like trying to make it mandatory without saying it aloud, so we'll treat it as if it was called mandatory anyway”.
And the consequences of government losing the court case would be severe; egg on face all around.
Unfortunately that's not what's happening, at least hear. At least half of the measures were struck down by court around here, but the government mostly ignored the rulings and just re-issued them in exactly the same broken form.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
And the consequences of government losing the court case would be severe; egg on face all around.
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@Zerosquare said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I've been reading about that for a few months now. Apparently, the Pretorius team is working on developing better diagnostic tools for clinicians so that Long Covid can be more definitively detected. I've seen anecdotes that people with it have "thick blood" despite normal serulogical test results, so microclots would be a potential explanation. (It fits with assertions from radiologists that Covid is mainly a blood disease despite being transmitted via aerosols. A really evil combo if proven.)
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
assertions from radiologists that Covid is mainly a blood disease
Not just radiologists. Clotting has been mentioned as important factor in the complications basically from the start.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I've seen anecdotes that people with it have "thick blood" despite normal serulogical test results, so microclots would be a potential explanation.
Meaning, we're so used to automated blood tests that nobody thought to take a good look at the samples with a microscope?
( I'm assuming that blood clots can be seen with a microscope, yes. )
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@acrow think of the implications for research of other diseases.
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@Gąska Think of the money, rather. If you run now, you can still file a patent for automated blood clot quantifitizer for medical diagnosis of COVID and other diseases. Y'know, before anyone else steals the idea.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gąska Think of the money, rather. If you run now, you can still file a patent for automated blood clot quantifitizer for medical diagnosis of COVID and other diseases. Y'know, before anyone else steals the idea.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I've seen anecdotes that people with it have "thick blood" despite normal serulogical test results, so microclots would be a potential explanation.
Meaning, we're so used to automated blood tests that nobody thought to take a good look at the samples with a microscope?
( I'm assuming that blood clots can be seen with a microscope, yes. )Normally the lab just runs the requested set of tests, whether automatic or manual. When trying to confirm or rule out known diseases, it works just fine, and the lab in average county hospital is not equipped or used to do anything more. But here we are dealing with a new disease, at least some of the samples should have been sent to a proper research lab for thorough analysis much sooner.
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@Bulb FWIW- the publication with the research results was officially published in August. I don't know what their turn-around time is, but typically, I'd say that 2 months is short and one year is not unheard of (especially if any revisions were required). That all happens after the research has taken place.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Meaning, we're so used to automated blood tests that nobody thought to take a good look at the samples with a microscope?
( I'm assuming that blood clots can be seen with a microscope, yes. )Normally (outside of selected research labs) you use automated tests as much as possible, as they're much more repeatable; being able to say that all the tests you do are done exactly the same way is a huge benefit. It's the difference between R&D and Production. Usually even the human parts are not much more than can be done fairly easily with an AI trained via ML (assuming someone's put enough effort in to doing the training) except that there's usually a desire for a higher level of explainability than you typically get out of ML methods.
As I understand it, the problem is that the normal method of testing for abnormal clotting is through fibrinolysis (probably followed by some sort of chemical assay to detect the soluble breakdown products), and these microclots were unusually resistant to that. I've no idea why this is the case in long covid, but if it is so then other methods are needed. My main hope is that there be some reasonably consistent method of properly determining a clinically useful signal for what seems to be a horrible and quite disabling long-term disease.
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I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?
On the positive side, deaths have basically not moved during the current wave, and it's been going for long enough to start showing upp, so... Yeayy I guess? Down to bad cold or mild flu mortality now I guess?
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
On the positive side, deaths have basically not moved during the current wave, and it's been going for long enough to start showing upp
That's what happened here too. Massive increase in cases, deaths stayed flat.
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@loopback0 said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
On the positive side, deaths have basically not moved during the current wave, and it's been going for long enough to start showing upp
That's what happened here too. Massive increase in cases, deaths stayed flat.
Yeah, going by the incline on the current increase, we're gonna get a peak at 2-3 times as much as currently per day. That seems like fun.
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@loopback0 said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Massive increase in cases
Doesn't help that people (at least in the US) are swarming the testing centers and there just aren't enough tests (either at home or lab tests) to go around. So massive increase in testing, plus less lethal (on average) virus == cases and deaths go completely different directions.
One odd thing about those graphs--that second one, with the deaths? Both waves had the same peak (eyeballed) and roughly the same primary width (faster growth on Alpha, because no one had any idea it was coming), although the delta wave has a longer tail after dropping off most of the way. I'd have to look at other countries, but my impression is that it's roughly the same. Which tells me that NPIs aren't worth much.
Not sure where vaccination kicked in for Sweden, so no comments on that front.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Which tells me that NPIs aren't worth much.
Huh? I didn't find any meaning of NPI that makes sense in this context.
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@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Which tells me that NPIs aren't worth much.
Huh? I didn't find any meaning of NPI that makes sense in this context.
Non Pharmaceutical Interventions. Masks, social distancing, lockdowns, etc.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@loopback0 said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Massive increase in cases
Doesn't help that people (at least in the US) are swarming the testing centers and there just aren't enough tests (either at home or lab tests) to go around. So massive increase in testing, plus less lethal (on average) virus == cases and deaths go completely different directions.
One odd thing about those graphs--that second one, with the deaths? Both waves had the same peak (eyeballed) and roughly the same primary width (faster growth on Alpha, because no one had any idea it was coming), although the delta wave has a longer tail after dropping off most of the way. I'd have to look at other countries, but my impression is that it's roughly the same. Which tells me that NPIs aren't worth much.
Not sure where vaccination kicked in for Sweden, so no comments on that front.
Yeah, one annoying thing is our new prime minister, the one that failed first, and then got it on the second try, seems to have a boner for authoritarianism, because even though the intensive care cases are at 1/3rd of the previous waves, she's banging the big drum about how hospitals are going under from the load. So I'm guessing the next month or two are going to be annoying.
On the plus side, voices about the efficacy of countermeasures have started to be raised, since there is ample data saying that they do fuck all to the spread of covid. The waves look the same no matter what rules have been in place. I'm guessing the PM is a sacrificial one and she's gonna get tossed out in election later this year.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I'm guessing the PM is a sacrificial one and she's gonna get tossed out in election later this year.
I might suggest a more, um, expeditious and possibly more effective sort of sacrifice. Perhaps modeled along the lines of the Aztecs.
I might suggest such a thing, but I won't, because it might be construed as a terroristic threat, or something of the sort.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Doesn't help that people (at least in the US) are swarming the testing centers and there just aren't enough tests (either at home or lab tests) to go around.
I caught pinkeye over the weekend, so I went to urgent care this morning. There were 8 people in line in front of me, every one there for a test.
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@antiquarian You don't have any covid testing centres set up? The labs have set up special testing points all over the place around here.
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@Bulb We do have testing centers, so I have no idea why people are going to urgent care instead.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@antiquarian You don't have any covid testing centres set up? The labs have set up special testing points all over the place around here.
From what I've seen around me (looking on social media), those special testing points are one (or both of)
- full up themselves
- lacking test capacity and materials. They're basically out of test kits, and supply chain issues are making that even harder to resupply.
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@Bulb said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@antiquarian You don't have any covid testing centres set up? The labs have set up special testing points all over the place around here.
Testing has ruined urgent care here in NYC. Luckily, some urgent care issues can be handled virtually.
There are testing centers but they run out within the hour. There's little point in us trying to get testing.
I looked at the ones that require appointment, no appointments available, at all.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Those numbers a weird if I'm reading that right as "cases per day". As per Swedish number formats, the scale should go up to 25 cases, with an application for the Useless Use Of Decimals Award. That would be impossibly low so I assume it's US format and 25,000 cases, which on the other hand is extremely fucking high. Without vaccination, pretty much everybody gets chickenpox exactly once, so cases should be about one birth cohort a year, supposed to be somewhere between 90,000 and 120,000 per year in Sweden (scb.se and Statista have rather different numbers). Four days at this rate is almost the number expected for the full year. Even if there's some backlog from kids who haven't gotten it due to lockdowns, that seems awfully high. That last wave, too, looks like a bit over 100 days at an average of around 3,000 a day? At least 3 times what you'd expect for a normal year.
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@Karla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Testing has ruined urgent care here in NYC. ...
It literally ruined one urgent care that also had office space for the related clinic. They converted it to a testing center by taking apart the cubicles in the office space so they had a place to store the desks and equipment from the urgent care. The flooring was removed as well, leaving a bare concrete floor from one door to one mostly empty exam room and (looping around some building structure) then to the other door to go back out.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Did it start just days apart from the Omicron wave? Happening in just one municipality? Because that would indicate someone at a COVID sampling site is a super-spreader.
Imagine if the pox infections went lock-step with the COVID results, but were spread nationwide. You'd have to suspect the nasal swab factory...
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Those numbers a weird if I'm reading that right as "cases per day". As per Swedish number formats, the scale should go up to 25 cases, with an application for the Useless Use Of Decimals Award. That would be impossibly low so I assume it's US format and 25,000 cases, which on the other hand is extremely fucking high. Without vaccination, pretty much everybody gets chickenpox exactly once, so cases should be about one birth cohort a year, supposed to be somewhere between 90,000 and 120,000 per year in Sweden (scb.se and Statista have rather different numbers). Four days at this rate is almost the number expected for the full year. Even if there's some baccases klog from kids who haven't gotten it due to lockdowns, that seems awfully high. That last wave, too, looks like a bit over 100 days at an average of around 3,000 a day? At least 3 times what you'd expect for a normal year.
Yeah, 25000 new cases per day. We've got slightly above 70% vaccination cover here as well, so that apparently does fuck all for spread reduction. Omicron started showing up a couple of weeks ago, and it's supposedly better at spreading than delta, so that's probably what caused the spread.
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Did it start just days apart from the Omicron wave? Happening in just one municipality? Because that would indicate someone at a COVID sampling site is a super-spreader.
Imagine if the pox infections went lock-step with the COVID results, but were spread nationwide. You'd have to suspect the nasal swab factory...
I think it's multiple municipalities. We've had christmas and new years eve, and people didn't care one bit that coronadoom is still ongoing, so that's probably what happened, lots of movement in the country, lots of 20-30 groups of people indoors.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Those numbers a weird if I'm reading that right as "cases per day". As per Swedish number formats, the scale should go up to 25 cases, with an application for the Useless Use Of Decimals Award. That would be impossibly low so I assume it's US format and 25,000 cases, which on the other hand is extremely fucking high. Without vaccination, pretty much everybody gets chickenpox exactly once, so cases should be about one birth cohort a year, supposed to be somewhere between 90,000 and 120,000 per year in Sweden (scb.se and Statista have rather different numbers). Four days at this rate is almost the number expected for the full year. Even if there's some baccases klog from kids who haven't gotten it due to lockdowns, that seems awfully high. That last wave, too, looks like a bit over 100 days at an average of around 3,000 a day? At least 3 times what you'd expect for a normal year.
Yeah, 25000 new cases per day. We've got slightly above 70% vaccination cover here as well, so that apparently does fuck all for spread reduction. Omicron started showing up a couple of weeks ago, and it's supposedly better at spreading than delta, so that's probably what caused the spread.
@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Did it start just days apart from the Omicron wave? Happening in just one municipality? Because that would indicate someone at a COVID sampling site is a super-spreader.
Imagine if the pox infections went lock-step with the COVID results, but were spread nationwide. You'd have to suspect the nasal swab factory...
I think it's multiple municipalities. We've had christmas and new years eve, and people didn't care one bit that coronadoom is still ongoing, so that's probably what happened, lots of movement in the country, lots of 20-30 groups of people indoors.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Did it start just days apart from the Omicron wave? Happening in just one municipality? Because that would indicate someone at a COVID sampling site is a super-spreader.
Imagine if the pox infections went lock-step with the COVID results, but were spread nationwide. You'd have to suspect the nasal swab factory...
Yeah, like I said, I think it's because of christmas and new years eve. People in sweden move around a lot to meet people indoors in groups of 20-30 people for both those events, and it's several different such groups, so perfect for spread. I think it's multiple municipalities too.
@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Those numbers a weird if I'm reading that right as "cases per day". As per Swedish number formats, the scale should go up to 25 cases, with an application for the Useless Use Of Decimals Award. That would be impossibly low so I assume it's US format and 25,000 cases, which on the other hand is extremely fucking high. Without vaccination, pretty much everybody gets chickenpox exactly once, so cases should be about one birth cohort a year, supposed to be somewhere between 90,000 and 120,000 per year in Sweden (scb.se and Statista have rather different numbers). Four days at this rate is almost the number expected for the full year. Even if there's some backlog from kids who haven't gotten it due to lockdowns, that seems awfully high. That last wave, too, looks like a bit over 100 days at an average of around 3,000 a day? At least 3 times what you'd expect for a normal year.
Yeah, 24000 or so new cases per day. It's an odd spike. But probably some sort of perfect storm of conditions in combination with omicron being better at virusing than the previous waves.
Also, you can catch corona multiple times.
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@acrow said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Did it start just days apart from the Omicron wave? Happening in just one municipality? Because that would indicate someone at a COVID sampling site is a super-spreader.
Imagine if the pox infections went lock-step with the COVID results, but were spread nationwide. You'd have to suspect the nasal swab factory...
I think it's probably the christmas and new years eve happening, since swedes move around a lot, and meet up indoors in groups of 10-30 people. Combined with a more viral version I guess that's what's happened. And I think it's multiple municipalities.
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@LaoC said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I just checked the statistics for the chinkenpox in Sweden, and there is a very odd spike for the current wave that is twice as high the previous waves in infections per day.
I have no fucking idea what that is. Possibly the result of Christmas and New Years eve movement in combination with Omicron taking off?Those numbers a weird if I'm reading that right as "cases per day". As per Swedish number formats, the scale should go up to 25 cases, with an application for the Useless Use Of Decimals Award. That would be impossibly low so I assume it's US format and 25,000 cases, which on the other hand is extremely fucking high. Without vaccination, pretty much everybody gets chickenpox exactly once, so cases should be about one birth cohort a year, supposed to be somewhere between 90,000 and 120,000 per year in Sweden (scb.se and Statista have rather different numbers). Four days at this rate is almost the number expected for the full year. Even if there's some backlog from kids who haven't gotten it due to lockdowns, that seems awfully high. That last wave, too, looks like a bit over 100 days at an average of around 3,000 a day? At least 3 times what you'd expect for a normal year.
Yep, 24000 or so new cases per day. But you can catch covid multiple times. We've had 1.2 million recorded cases so far, I think the actual number is a few hundred thousand higher, but that's still far from the full population.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Yeah, 24000 or so new cases per day. It's an odd spike. But probably some sort of perfect storm of conditions in combination with omicron being better at virusing than the previous waves.
Also, you can catch corona multiple times.I took that for a typo and thought you were looking at correlations
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Took a look at the covid statistics today again, and it looks fairy much like the holidays of traveling to meet friends and family is behind the spike. It's going back down again now. Here's a picture with a closer zoom so it's easier to see.
The spike is possibly also because people didn't bother getting tested during the holidays, and went and got themselves tested before going back to work or something, causing the middle fingery spike there.
Still about twice as many infections per day as the previous worst though, so omicron is doing it's jerb.
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@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Took a look at the covid statistics today again, and it looks fairy much like the holidays of traveling to meet friends and family is behind the spike. It's going back down again now. Here's a picture with a closer zoom so it's easier to see.
The spike is possibly also because people didn't bother getting tested during the holidays, and went and got themselves tested before going back to work or something, causing the middle fingery spike there.
Still about twice as many infections per day as the previous worst though, so omicron is doing it's jerb.Yeah. I stopped paying attention to daily numbers because there were always spikes and dips around holidays and weekends, entirely due to reporting and testing.
One thing I hate about this all is that the data is just so awful. Collected poorly and inconsistently, displayed poorly, etc.
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Professor Ehud Qimron: “Ministry of Health, it’s time to admit failure”
Professor Ehud Qimron, head of the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at Tel Aviv University and one of the leading Israeli immunologists, has written an open letter sharply criticizing the …
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@lolwhat let me ask questions and don’t wait for the answer. What a bunch of twisted shit.
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@lolwhat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Professor Ehud Qimron: “Ministry of Health, it’s time to admit failure”
Professor Ehud Qimron, head of the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at Tel Aviv University and one of the leading Israeli immunologists, has written an open letter sharply criticizing the …
Two years late, you finally realize that a respiratory virus cannot be defeated and that any such attempt is doomed to fail.
Well, this one, at least. It depends on how infectious it is. Stuff like the original SARS and MERS were kept reasonably contained.
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@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@lolwhat let me ask questions and don’t wait for the answer. What a bunch of twisted shit.
That puffed up fuck doesn't answer questions. This is not the first time Paul tries to make him admit what he clearly said or done.
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@antiquarian said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Bulb We do have testing centers, so I have no idea why people are going to urgent care instead.
Because the ER said "get outta here".
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@MrL guessing you don't mean Saul-who-was-still-Saul, so you must be talking about PPPaul
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
One thing I hate about this all is that the data is just so awful. Collected poorly and inconsistently, displayed poorly, etc.
Welcome to the real world. We have cookies. For now. I can guarantee that there will be fewer cookies later on.
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@dkf said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
One thing I hate about this all is that the data is just so awful. Collected poorly and inconsistently, displayed poorly, etc.
Welcome to the real world. We have cookies. For now. I can guarantee that there will be fewer cookies later on.
That'd be nice, but I'd settle for not badgering me into acknowledging them all the damn time.
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