The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card)
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
wide range of prices that people will pay."
Yeah, the range below iPhone prices.
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It's all in the carefully selected wording.
(http://fortune.com/2017/09/11/apple-tim-cook-education-health-care/)
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@Benjamin-Hall said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Just trying to troll here, pay no mind.
I guessed that. I thought that my best response was to describe Apple's products as being Chinese, given that's where they're made anyway.
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@Bulb said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
There is somewhat well known example of a wrist-watch maker ( looking up the name; IIRC it was in Germany) who was making pretty good and relatively cheap watches. But the sales were low. So they increased the price. A lot; like 10 times. The number sold increased (and the profit obviously did so massively). Because wrist-watches is another such item that people are willing to buy for insane price just to show off they can afford it.
Same thing with alcohol. I think it's Sidney Frank who has a reputation for buying brands like Grey Goose and making billions of dollars off of them by advertising them successfully as luxury brands and pricing them for that market. There are several interesting interviews and books on that subject.
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@heterodox said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@Bulb said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
There is somewhat well known example of a wrist-watch maker ( looking up the name; IIRC it was in Germany) who was making pretty good and relatively cheap watches. But the sales were low. So they increased the price. A lot; like 10 times. The number sold increased (and the profit obviously did so massively). Because wrist-watches is another such item that people are willing to buy for insane price just to show off they can afford it.
Same thing with alcohol. I think it's Sidney Frank who has a reputation for buying brands like Grey Goose and making billions of dollars off of them by advertising them successfully as luxury brands and pricing them for that market. There are several interesting interviews and books on that subject.
'Luxury goods' behave like that, they have negative price elasticity of demand.
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In a sane world Apple would not be able to get away with their exorbiantly high prices if we compare with this other upcoming flagship. Here's the iPhones for comparision:
Here's the upcoming Sony Xperia XZ3, which costs a third of the iPhone XS (in Sweden at least).
- 6" OLED display with HDR
- 2880 x 1440 resolution
- 19MP rear camera (with HDR photos and 4K HDR videos)
- 13MP front camera
- Qualcomm Snapdragon 845
- 4GB RAM
- Fingerprint sensor
- USB-C connector
- QI-based wireless charging
- IPS 65/68 water resistance
- 64GB built-in storage, up to 512GB microSD
- Proper dual SIM
- Up to 1.2Gbps LTE
- Bluetooth 5.0
- Android 9.0
So, yeah. There is absolutely zero way for Apple being able to motivate their prices based off the hardware in the iPhone XS. So the added cost for the privilege of having an on your phone is now over $400. Insane.
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@MrL said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
'Luxury goods' behave like that, they have negative price elasticity of demand.
Right. The only thing that fascinates me about that is the quotes. In a lot of cases, luxury goods are only luxury goods because we say they are. Whoever can say that really emphatically gets the market.
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
In a sane world Apple would not be able to get away with their exorbiantly high prices if we compare with this other upcoming flagship. Here's the iPhones for comparision:
Here's the upcoming Sony Xperia XZ3, which costs a third of the iPhone XS (in Sweden at least).
- 6" OLED display with HDR
- 2880 x 1440 resolution
- 19MP rear camera (with HDR photos and 4K HDR videos)
- 13MP front camera
- Qualcomm Snapdragon 845
- 4GB RAM
- Fingerprint sensor
- USB-C connector
- QI-based wireless charging
- IPS 65/68 water resistance
- 64GB built-in storage, up to 512GB microSD
- Proper dual SIM
- Up to 1.2Gbps LTE
- Bluetooth 5.0
- Android 9.0
So, yeah. There is absolutely zero way for Apple being able to motivate their prices based off the hardware in the iPhone XS. So the added cost for the privilege of having an on your phone is now over $400. Insane.
Most people don't look at price tags, or backwards compatibility, or camera quality, or anything like that. They know two things:
- The iPhone is much sleeker in every way than Android, meaning it's more advanced
- Texting loses almost all its features when you text someone with Android
So iPhone is the obvious choice.
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@pie_flavor said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Most people don't look at price tags, or backwards compatibility, or camera quality, or anything like that. They know two things:
- The iPhone
isfeelsmuchsomewhat sleeker inevery waysome ways than Android, meaning it'sappears more advanced - Texting loses almost all its features when you text someone with Android because iPhones use their own messaging app instead of following the standards
The problem is that the iPhone ecosystem is so far behind Android in every way by now that the only way Apple can pretend superiority is by putting themselves as a luxury brand through pricing, not by offering a better product. They need to at least reach feature parity with Android and high-end Android phones before they can try to motivate their prices.
- The iPhone
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@pie_flavor said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
- Texting loses almost all its features when you text someone with Android because iPhones use their own messaging app instead of following the standards
Most iPhone users are like @blakeyrat. You could talk about implementation details all day, but they don't give a shit how it works as long as it works.
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@pie_flavor said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Most iPhone users are like @blakeyrat. You could talk about implementation details all day, but they don't give a shit how it works as long as it works.
The iPhone market share is large enough that there won't be major drag on the availability of apps in the App Store for a while, at least not for consumer-oriented ones, but the writing is on the wall: there are cheaper devices that are 95% equivalent (in things that people care about) and there's enough people with somewhat precarious finances that cheaper will win out over time. Commoditization, ahoy! (Corporate use will decline harder; not needing to submit to the app store process for purely internal apps will definitely make Android tablets far more attractive, especially with the prices being keener.)
Apple need to establish some more USPs that consumers care about.
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
In a sane world Apple would not be able to get away with their exorbiantly high prices if we compare with this other upcoming flagship. Here's the iPhones for comparision:
Here's the upcoming Sony Xperia XZ3, which costs a third of the iPhone XS (in Sweden at least).
- 6" OLED display with HDR
- 2880 x 1440 resolution
- 19MP rear camera (with HDR photos and 4K HDR videos)
- 13MP front camera
- Qualcomm Snapdragon 845
- 4GB RAM
- Fingerprint sensor
- USB-C connector
- QI-based wireless charging
- IPS 65/68 water resistance
- 64GB built-in storage, up to 512GB microSD
- Proper dual SIM
- Up to 1.2Gbps LTE
- Bluetooth 5.0
- Android 9.0
So, yeah. There is absolutely zero way for Apple being able to motivate their prices based off the hardware in the iPhone XS. So the added cost for the privilege of having an on your phone is now over $400. Insane.
Yeah but most people don't look at the specs in that detail when buying a phone, because most people don't care.
@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
The problem is that the iPhone ecosystem is so far behind Android in every way by now
How?
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@pie_flavor said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@pie_flavor said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
- Texting loses almost all its features when you text someone with Android because iPhones use their own messaging app instead of following the standards
Most iPhone users are like @blakeyrat. You could talk about implementation details all day, but they don't give a shit how it works as long as it works.
Yes. Unlike my computer, I don't program on my phone. I just want it to work, what the hell is wrong with that?
EDIT: I missed the context in which you said that.
Of course, it's relevant how iMessage works and I'd prefer it if they opened that up.
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@topspin said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
I don't program on my phone
But it's easier if you have a real keyboard. ;)
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@loopback0 Pretty much all hardware you can get equivalent or better on Android. There are better cameras for example, and the screen resolutions are a joke on iPhone. That segment on Android is all 1440p or better now while iPhone’s new Super Retina is somewhere inbetween 1080p and 1440p.
And Apple keeps on pretending they are inventing new and great features for every single thing that Android has had for years. They ran LCD screen on their phones up until the iPhone X, because ”the technology wasn’t ready”. Which is total bullshit, OLED has been ready since at least 2012 when I got my first OLED device. Fastcharging? Last year. Something I got with my Nexus 5X 3 years ago. Apple has not been innovating in the smartphone sector for over 6 years by now. They’re no longer driving innovation, they just implement stuff after they’ve already became a standard in the Android ecosystem. So, yes, Apple is very much behind.
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
They’re no longer driving innovation, they just
implementinvent stuff after they’ve already became a standard in the Android ecosystem.FTF Apple's marketing
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
They’re no longer driving innovation, they just implement stuff after they’ve already became a standard in the Android ecosystem.
Probably at the point when their Chinese suppliers start to tell them there'll be an extra charge for all that old tech they're using…
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Pretty much all hardware you can get equivalent or better on Android. There are better cameras for example, and the screen resolutions are a joke on iPhone. That segment on Android is all 1440p or better now while iPhone’s new Super Retina is somewhere inbetween 1080p and 1440p.
Yeah but so what? It's only nerds who get boners over specifications who care about that. The rest of us just want a screen that looks good.
No-one's going to look at the screen on an iPhone X and go "I wish this had more pixels", and there's more to pixel count anyway. I've just looked up the resolution of my 6S - it's not even 1080p, yet it looks significantly better than my Galaxy S5 which is 1080p and that is what matters.The Android market has so many competitors that they have to play the stupid numbers game to differentiate one flagship from another, where the Samsung has a 3mm larger screen than an LG, which has 4seconds more battery than a Sony, which has 100 more pixels than a Huawei, which has a better camera than the Samsung.
Apple has its market, the people who actually care whether the screen is 1440p or not aren't buying iPhones anyway.@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
... Apple has not been innovating in the smartphone sector for over 6 years by now ...
Whether people agree with changes like "the notch" or removal of the headphone socket, they're appearing on Android now. This works both ways. If a feature is popular in the market, any company which didn't copy it would be stupid.
Yes, it's stupid Apple act like they invented things they blatantly copied but they're a marketing company who happens to make electronics - and it's something else to make jokes about other than Windows Update.
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I'm quite happy with my moto g4 that you can buy for 120 us$ in the usa. Anything more expensive than that is bullshit IMO.
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@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
it's not even 1080p, yet it looks significantly better […] and that is what matters
It's probably doing more sub-pixel drawing. Apple's been pretty good at that for a long time.
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@heterodox said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@Bulb said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
There is somewhat well known example of a wrist-watch maker ( looking up the name; IIRC it was in Germany) who was making pretty good and relatively cheap watches. But the sales were low. So they increased the price. A lot; like 10 times. The number sold increased (and the profit obviously did so massively). Because wrist-watches is another such item that people are willing to buy for insane price just to show off they can afford it.
Same thing with alcohol. I think it's Sidney Frank who has a reputation for buying brands like Grey Goose and making billions of dollars off of them by advertising them successfully as luxury brands and pricing them for that market. There are several interesting interviews and books on that subject.
Like every marketing textbook (ok, that's the general subject, not the specifics of that guy).
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Seriously, I look at a spec comparison, and can't think why people pay 10X the price, for slightly better spec
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@sockpuppet7 Most people don't care about the spec of their phone.
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@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@sockpuppet7 Most people don't care about the spec of their phone.
Instead, they care about the ego boost from having a status symbol (the apple logo). Much more rational.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Instead, they care about the ego boost from having a status symbol (the apple logo).
Some must, sure.
I don't know a single person who thinks an iPhone is a status symbol, and yet I know several people with iPhones.
It's a crazy idea but some people just prefer an iPhone, in the same way some people just prefer a Samsung and other people prefer still using a Nokia from 10 years ago.@Benjamin-Hall said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Much more rational.
No-one's claiming that.
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@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@Benjamin-Hall said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Instead, they care about the ego boost from having a status symbol (the apple logo).
Some must, sure.
I don't know a single person who thinks an iPhone is a status symbol, and yet I know several people with iPhones.
It's a crazy idea but some people just prefer an iPhone, in the same way some people just prefer a Samsung and other people prefer still using a Nokia from 10 years ago.@Benjamin-Hall said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Much more rational.
No-one's claiming that.
I was mostly just
I'm prejudiced against Apple, since I have to use it for work (and am surrounded by Apple devotees constantly as a result).
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@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
I don't know a single person who thinks an iPhone is a status symbol,
They are associated with rich people here
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@Atazhaia Trade wars and inflation will do that...
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@Jaloopa said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
So XS stands for excess, not extra small?
extra 'spensive?
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How´s the iStore ecosystem these days? Among many others the prices of the phones drove me away but GooglePlay is godawful: terrible look and visual design, not being able to see the price up front or having to bother with ads forced down one's throat... sometimes I think access to the iStore is what you truly pay for but if Windows is any indications I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's catched with Android's shittyness instead.
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@Haloquadratum welcome back, lurker!
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@Haloquadratum said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
not being able to see the price up front
Excuse the colors, I theme my phone
If it's not free there's a price right there under the icons...
@Haloquadratum said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
bother with ads forced down one's throat.
One would argue that's the purpose of a store, but again, not sure what you mean by "shoved down your throat". Do you mean you get fullscreen un-skip-able ads when you visit the Google Play store? Or something else?
Because the only thing I can see that marginally screams "forced down your throat" to me is that some apps get shoved to the top of search results (and have this little "ad" icon on them) and the "recommendations for you" section is literally based on ad data...
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@Haloquadratum said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
How´s the iStore ecosystem these days? Among many others the prices of the phones drove me away but GooglePlay is godawful: terrible look and visual design, not being able to see the price up front or having to bother with ads forced down one's throat... sometimes I think access to the iStore is what you truly pay for but if Windows is any indications I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's catched with Android's shittyness instead.
... wat? There's nothing wrong that I can tell with Play's visual design or look & feel, you can see the prices of all apps up front, and I can't tell whether you mean third-party ads in apps or ads for apps in Play but you get both with the App Store too. When was the last time you owned a cell phone?
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@pie_flavor said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
When was the last time you owned a cell phone?
He doesn't need to own a cellphone to know that he doesn't like 'em! He also wears an onion on his belt…
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Apple is fond of their marketing lies. (News at 11, i know, I know...) "The strongest glass ever in a smartphone." scratches at the same level as pretty much every other mid/high-end phone
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@Atazhaia Careful; your brain wants to put 'smartphone' but really they just say 'iPhone' most of the time. 'The highest camera resolution ever on an iPhone.'
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@pie_flavor Yes but that's one where they actually say "the most durable glass ever in a smartphone".
There are some drop tests where the results suggest it survives dropping better than others, but in the end it's still glass.
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@loopback0 I wouldn't doubt it if it were true. I haven't experienced much outside of Samsung but with my phone I think they went out of their way to make it more breakable so it'd be cheaper to replace. Something about double layered glass.
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@pie_flavor I went through a period of about 18 months where I smashed the screens on 3 phones (Galaxy S3, Nexus 5, Galaxy S5). My 6S has survived more drops than all of them, but no idea how much of that is due to the glass maybe being different and how much is the case doing a better job of protecting it.
Ultimately it's still glass no matter how good Apple claim it is, it's not indestructible, and I've no idea who thought it was a good idea to make the back out of glass too.
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@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
I've no idea who thought it was a good idea to make the back out of glass too.
Somewhere at Apple...
You know how our phones screens tend to break?
Yeah?
And how our customers then buy a new phone from us?
...Yeah?
Why don't we use glass for the back as well, and double the chance they have to buy a replacement?
But how will we justify it?
Oh, that's the easy part. Johnny will tell them something about "incredible design" or whatever, and they'll believe him.
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@pie_flavor said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
you can see the prices of all apps up front,
There are a fair few 'free' apps which reveal that 95% of the content is gated off once you run them.
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@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
I've no idea who thought it was a good idea to make the back out of glass too.
Most likely to enable wireless charging, as it would have to be either plastic or glass, and as for which one is feeling more exclusive...
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@Atazhaia said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
Most likely to enable wireless charging, as it would have to be either plastic or glass
It's not the first iPhone with a back glass, but it's the first one with wireless charging
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@TimeBandit said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
but it's the first one with wireless charging
The iPhone 8 was the first with wireless charging. I thought the iPhone 8 had a metal back but I've just checked and it's glass so maybe that is the reason.
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@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
maybe that is the reason
Didn't the 5s got a back made of glass?
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@Zerosquare My 7 year old 4S has a glass back. It got 4 years of daily use before I retired it to a music player, and there's no breaks in the front or back.
The magic? A $3 thin Chinese silicone case
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@TimeBandit said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@loopback0 said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
maybe that is the reason
Didn't the 5s got a back made of glass?
Not the whole back, just the top and bottom.
On the topic of the 5S - this 5 year old model is still officially supported on the new version of iOS that just came out. That is something Apple do better than the Android manufacturers.
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@topspin The one time a phone of mine fell and something broke, the glass was just fine.
It was the display itself which cracked under the glass. The crack was only visible at a certain angle against the light.
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@topspin said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
The magic? A $3 thin Chinese silicone case
You forgot that $3 is about $30 in Apple dollars. You can't expect them to give away the equivalent of $30 on a product which razor-thin margins!
@Rhywden said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
It was the display itself which cracked under the glass.
Make sure the glass can't break on this model!
But boss, it's a matter of physi...
I don't want to hear your science mumbo-jumbo! Just fix it!2 weeks later...
Have you solved the glass problem?
Sure did, boss. The glass won't break anymore
Good! Told you it could be done if you tried harder.
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@Zerosquare said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
@topspin said in The iPhone XS (will) Max (out your credit card):
The magic? A $3 thin Chinese silicone case
You forgot that $3 is about $30 in Apple dollars. You can't expect them to give away the equivalent of $30 on a product which razor-thin margins!
Well of course I didn't buy that from Apple but from eBay. They did sell silicone cases but they were worse and way more expensive, but at least they had a cut-out to show the Apple logo.