I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit
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@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
Why bother comment on a dying ecosystem?
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@jbert said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Mind you, Oracle's Java has a somewhat similar lunacy now that they're making frequent major releases.
We have too much going on right now with de-integrating one COTS package and integrating another to worry about that right now. I'm sure our hair will be on fire over that soon, though.
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@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@pie_flavor yeah, except the Rust ecosystem is still a mess, so for most use cases, you have to write almost everything from scratch. There are DB drivers, there are HTTP servers, there are templating engines, but there's nothing that could connect them all together. Also, how futures work is about to change completely (technically not a breaking change, because until now, they were provided by 3rd party library). I'd give it 2 more years before using it for web.
You clearly aren't looking.
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater Why'd you even start using it. It should have been obvious from day one how much a cluster fuck this would turn into.
Lo and behold, it has.
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
That's because the kind of people who like open source are used to this, because ALL their software is this shitty.
If you've lived your entire life in a toilet bowl, you're going to be real excited to see a cleaner toilet bowl. If you're anybody else, you look and just see a big turd floating around.
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Why'd you even start using it. It should have been obvious from day one how much a cluster fuck this would turn into.
I did it cos this was the latest lightweight platform and I thought this would be ASP .NET's awesomeness plus some more improvements.
@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
That's because the kind of people who like open source are used to this, because ALL their software is this shitty.
I've seen open source blakeyrants here and there but what's the origin story on when you started hating open source? I sense strong hate for anything OSS.
@unperverted-vixen said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
They've actually managed to make it worse than I would have ever guessed.
1.1 was fucky and I waited for them to fix stuff and then 2.0 came out and I thought okay maybe they ironed out a few wrinkles and things are fine now. Which they were, the whole thing should have been left at 2.0 with just bug fixing. But No, let's make 2.1. Now everything in the docs has gone into a state of limbo between 2.0 and 2.1 with the bug fixes for the latter coming in 2.2.0 preview with 3.0 on the horizon. I'm not informed enough to tell whether the core framework is fucked but I'm pretty sure the docs are fucked. The same thing happened with Azure functions from one version to the other version. Somebody sneakily updated something and now shit won't work and I had to wank to github Issues for an hour to figure out how to do it. Fuck this shit.
@magnusmaster said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Well, so far it's been a week and I'm still stuck with the login page, because configuring ASP.NET Identity Core
I hope to god you're using 2.0 cos if you're using 2.1 and if you chose individual accounts then you are fucked. The Identity scaffolded pages like Login, Logout etc., are not controllers and views, they are RAZOR CLASS LIBRARIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You cannot see the views or controller functions for authentication it's all in a class library lulz. This was not the default behaviour in 1.x or 2.0. Oh If you want to see these pages, then scaffold and create the pages again. Somebody decided hiding goddamn Authentication controllers and pages in a class library makes things less magical and friendlier for the user. I don't even.
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@boomzilla said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Why bother comment on a dying ecosystem?
What ecosystems are not dying in your opinion?
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@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Rocket - Simple, Fast, Type-Safe Web Framework for Rust
I've had to deal with so much dynamically typed languages I get a boner when I see Type-Safe. Assuming that means statically typed.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Oh If you want to see these pages, then scaffold and create the pages again. Somebody decided hiding goddamn Authentication controllers and pages in a class library makes things less magical and friendlier for the user. I don't even.
I don't think they ever said "less magical", just "friendlier". Seeing as how they keep changing them with each release, putting the defaults in a library so users get automatic updates makes sense to me. If you want to alter them, you can always scaffold and take ownership for keeping them in sync.
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@unperverted-vixen said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
I don't think they ever said "less magical", just "friendlier".
IMO, anything that's not less magical does not tend to be friendlier. The more the magic, the difficult it is to use.
@unperverted-vixen said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Seeing as how they keep changing them with each release, putting the defaults in a library so users get automatic updates makes sense to me.
You're assuming they're gonna get updates.
@unperverted-vixen said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
If you want to alter them, you can always scaffold and take ownership for keeping them in sync.
You can do that. What happens if there is a breaking change between your scaffolded pages and the class library when it receives its next update. Things get borked then. These were scaffolded out to controllers and views since 1925. Now they've changed it and everyone who scaffolds out (which I am sure people will) the Identity controllers and views have the overhead of making sure things work according to the latest update when the Class libary receives one. Yeah seems like no big deal to me.
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All the Rust programmers out there, I'm looking at it and seems nice. Typed and all that. How is the development experience on windows? Glitchy? Can anyone comment?
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@stillwater I'm not using VS 2017, we don't have the license for that. I'm using VS Code so fortunately I don't have to deal with any insanity on the scaffolded pages. But it was a pain to set up everything manually and I still have to deal with finding a way to read jwt tokens on the front-end to make sure I can hide/unhide stuff based on roles. But seriously hiding everything behind a dll is INSANE. What if you want to make modifications or learn how the account controllers are made?
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@magnusmaster Get ready for a few WTFs
@magnusmaster said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
I'm using VS Code so fortunately I don't have to deal with any insanity on the scaffolded pages.
If you are using VS Code then you gotta manually scaffold things using the dotnet command line tool and the scaffolding it generates is not quite the same as the one generated by VS 2017. Also the scaffolding might not work without a particular tool being installed, which is not mentioned in the documentation but umm.... it's there in the Github Issue. Also the suggested way was to go with the VS 2017 scaffolding mechanism and not the dotnet command line way, so if you are using VS Code, I am not sure what's the way to go forward to make things easy.
@magnusmaster said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
have to deal with finding a way to read jwt tokens on the front-end to make sure I can hide/unhide stuff based on roles.
Ummm, one of the Github threads I linked in the OP has someone from MS say Roles is not the way going forward instead it might have to be replaced with claims based auth or something along those lines. So yeah, check for any WTFs.
@magnusmaster said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
But seriously hiding everything behind a dll is INSANE
Yes it is.
@magnusmaster said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
What if you want to make modifications or learn how the account controllers are made?
You go and scaffold the Identity from the solution explored and scaffold the respective DBContext if you are using EF and then you get to fuck around to see how account controllers are made. By default, we're gonna hide a very important part of your application inside a DLL cos lolz.
@magnusmaster said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
I'm not using VS 2017, we don't have the license for that. I'm using VS Code so fortunately
Are you using .NET Core at work?!
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Rocket - Simple, Fast, Type-Safe Web Framework for Rust
I've had to deal with so much dynamically typed languages I get a boner when I see Type-Safe. Assuming that means statically typed.
It does. With generic specialization.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
All the Rust programmers out there, I'm looking at it and seems nice. Typed and all that. How is the development experience on windows? Glitchy? Can anyone comment?
The challenge is finding the right IDE. https://areweideyet.com/ Widespread adoption is still relatively new and they haven't nailed down incremental compilation quite yet. However the actual programming is smooth as butter and everything integrates perfectly. Writing Rust is like writing a high-level language even though it's the functionality of C++ without the object orientation.
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@el_heffe said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
The comments section are far more interesting than the actual post wtf cross platform circle jerk make it stop someone pls
The comment lulz start immediately:
Dude: Dose this mean we are oona have wpf on linux?
Microsoft Guy: There is no support for Linux or macOS. This is covered in the post.
Uhh… he's not wrong.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
someone from MS say Roles is not the way going forward instead it might have to be replaced with claims based auth
Wait, what?
I spent way too much time getting Roles working, they're going to invert that now?
:table_flip:
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@tsaukpaetra
Thread at https://github.com/aspnet/Identity/issues/1813Yes at the end of the day the only thing roles did was end up adding a Role claim permission, we feel claims based authorization is the direction we want to encourage going forward, you can still accomplish the Role permission via the user claims api
Either I'm misinterpreting this shit and understood it all wrong which I'm hoping is the case or your table-flip ends up being justfied!
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@tsaukpaetra
Thread at https://github.com/aspnet/Identity/issues/1813Yes at the end of the day the only thing roles did was end up adding a Role claim permission, we feel claims based authorization is the direction we want to encourage going forward, you can still accomplish the Role permission via the user claims api
Either I'm misinterpreting this shit and understood it all wrong which I'm hoping is the case or your table-flip ends up being justfied!
Yeah, see, the problem here is that, unless you write up your own token invalidation mechanism (which I had to do for this exact failure) your claims and roles don't update on users that are already logged in, and this applies to both cookies and jwt tokens.
Which means that, so long as the token is valid, if it had, say, admin privileges, there's no way (in the default stateless system) for the application to know it's been revoked unless you check it manually, since it assumes that a successfully decrypted token is totally trustworthy (so long as it's not expired) and won't attempt to check for permissions updates.
Whatever, I'll log a JIRA for this, it may be addressed when we start having more roles than "User" and "Admin" in the system...
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@tsaukpaetra said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
JIRA
NO!
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
Oh wait, that doesn't translate...
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@tsaukpaetra Everytime someone who was new to Git did not get how to do something in it, it was customary to go "Hey know what I LL show you how to work with JIRA." and then eventually they realize Git ain't that bad.
Also I had an amazing manager once who told us Guys we're moving to JIRA and then after a week or so went "Know what we're sticking to the old homegrown system. JIRA is not usable.". This man had worked on extremely broken legacy integration shit all his life and to see him say that blew our mind.
But finally when we moved to JIRA, I could not figure it out so it was logging hours in Google sheets and printing it out once every month :/
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@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@pie_flavor yeah, except the Rust ecosystem is still a mess, so for most use cases, you have to write almost everything from scratch. There are DB drivers, there are HTTP servers, there are templating engines, but there's nothing that could connect them all together. Also, how futures work is about to change completely (technically not a breaking change, because until now, they were provided by 3rd party library). I'd give it 2 more years before using it for web.
You clearly aren't looking.
Can I replace my Rails/Django/Flask already?
Well, probably not yet. While the basics are there, many of the handy utility libs that make working with many popular frameworks so quick and easy are still missing. If your service primarily provides an API to be consumed by other computers, requires little external services and you are happy with writing most SQL yourself, then Yes, You Can! Otherwise, we would not recommend it just yet.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
But finally when we moved to JIRA, I could not figure it out so it was logging hours in Google sheets and printing it out once every month
About that...
Yeah, I built up JIRA interfacing to our homebrew time clock system (that I also had to fix, long story, probably mentioned it in the Status Thread a few years ago) with the explicit intent of properly logging hours against JIRA tickets.
Nobody does it though.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
All the Rust programmers out there, I'm looking at it and seems nice. Typed and all that. How is the development experience on windows? Glitchy? Can anyone comment?
The only free IDE worth looking at is IntelliJ IDEA with Rust plugin, and it lacks debugger support (you can do it in command line, or you can pay for CLion license which has all the same features, plus debugger). But other than that, it's very nice for pre-alpha product. Before that, I've used Notepad++ and command line, and had no problems getting it working too. In general, setting up Rust on Windows is easier than setting up open-source C projects. Oh, and you don't have to care about dependencies because Cargo does everything for you.
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@tsaukpaetra HOLY SHIT! Wait a sec if we have to go to absurd lengths to use JIRA how the fuck is it successful? What's happening here?!
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@gąska Back when I tried Rust a few years back it was just the CLI and sublime text. Setting up is what I was worried about cos anytime I think about installing stuff that is not windows ish I compare it to getting theano and cuda to work on Windows holy shit balls that's an experience!
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@stillwater s/JIRA/git or server-side Javascript or Docker or XML or <insert pretty much any technology of the last 20 years>
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@stillwater back when I first tried Rust on Windows a few years back (v. 0.12-pre), everything Just Worked. And now it's even better.
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@gąska ummm but aren't we supposed to CONTAINERIZE ALL THE THINGS?!!!!!! I got rejected out of an interview cos I hadnt had any CONTAINERIZING experience previously.
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@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
Well, I'm pretty sure @blakeyrat has been saying that.
@el_heffe said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Notice over on the right, the words "Cross Platform" under the Apple and Linux logos. Which leads to people asking about cross platform stuff and Microsoft Guy responding with a lot of WTF-ery.
I also like that the "Windows only" side has one item labelled "EF6 (cross-plat.)" If it's cross-platform, why do you have it on the "Windows only" side?
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@boomzilla said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Why bother comment on a dying ecosystem?
What ecosystems are not dying in your opinion?
That was just a joke. @cartman82 posted a thread with ".Net is dying" or similar at one point.
However, I believe that neither .Net nor Java are dying.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
JIRA is not usable...But finally when we moved to JIRA, I could not figure it out so it was logging hours in Google sheets and printing it out once every month
Wha?????....I mean, there are some little things that annoy me but I cannot figure out where this is coming from.
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@scarlet_manuka said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
I also like that the "Windows only" side has one item labelled "EF6 (cross-plat.)" If it's cross-platform, why do you have it on the "Windows only" side?
It works on every edition of Vista #pdk
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@boomzilla said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
JIRA is not usable...But finally when we moved to JIRA, I could not figure it out so it was logging hours in Google sheets and printing it out once every month
Wha?????....I mean, there are some little things that annoy me but I cannot figure out where this is coming from.
I don't remember the exact specifics but different people in the team had different ways they wanted tasks logged in JIRA and there were things workflows and projects and when we logged something under a category somebody wanted at the level which would be more granular or less granular and figuring out how to do shit differently was a PITA. YMMV but it was unintuitive AF and the UX sucked.
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This post is deleted!
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@tsaukpaetra said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
I spent way too much time getting Roles working, they're going to invert that now?
Roles have always been a great simplification of the space of security models, and they're very much not a way of addressing every security requirement. Sometimes you need the user's actual identity (especially true if you're creating something for them that they will then “own”). Claims-based security is much more flexible, especially since you can model roles and identities and delegation within it; delegation is especially nice, as you can assert that you're an agent working on behalf of another identity instead of having to screw around with asserting that you are them (which is impersonation, and in general a bad idea) and the other side merely needs to figure out whether they trust you to make that assertion.
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@boomzilla said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Wha?????....I mean, there are some little things that annoy me but I cannot figure out where this is coming from.
They're using it for timesheets and complex issue-flow tracking, as far as I can see. Which is the sort of thing that makes me go “nuh-uh” as it gets really nasty even with very good integration and low workflow impedance. Everyone who wants to do that sort of thing needs a custom tool that actually encodes their organisational workflow as it is on the ground, not in some theoretical ivory tower run by management consultants. But for just tracking the actual state of issues themselves, JIRA isn't too bad; it's better than many of the alternatives that I've tried.
Only when you get into the business of integrated resource tracking do issue systems become total horrors.
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@dkf said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
They're using it for timesheets and complex issue-flow tracking
Complex is an understatement omg the horrors. Things went out of control so fast people jumped ship before they would go insane.
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@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
There are DB drivers, there are HTTP servers, there are templating engines, but there's nothing that could connect them all together
What more connection do you need? Web devs and their need for complexity.
Function pageHandler(httpRequest){
db.readStuff()
httpRequest.respond(PageTemplate.render(stuff))
}
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@dkf said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
But for just tracking the actual state of issues themselves, JIRA isn't too bad; it's better than many of the alternatives that I've tried.
Asides from being a slow, Java-based pile of crap.
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@anonymous234 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
There are DB drivers, there are HTTP servers, there are templating engines, but therejs nothing that could connect them all together
What more connection do you need? Web devs and their need for complexity.
Function pageHandler(httpRequest){
db.readStuff()
httpRequest.respond(PageTemplate.render(stuff))
}Maintaining sessions. Access control. Front-end integration and AJAX. Million other things I know nothing about because I've never done web but every web developer curses about on daily basis. Everything looks simple if you only do simple things - and most commercial applications/websites are very complex.
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@unperverted-vixen said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@dkf said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
But for just tracking the actual state of issues themselves, JIRA isn't too bad; it's better than many of the alternatives that I've tried.
Asides from being a slow, Java-based pile of crap.
Also. Who the fuck made the decision to set time tracking precision to SECONDS!?
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@gąska Looks like a case of the default hh mm ss datetime field representation on the UI and the dev just went meh fuck it I'll leave it as it is. Or maybe it was put intentionally?
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@stillwater they haven't changed it for at least five years.
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@gąska So that UX is consistent. Sweet!
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After spending a couple years at JIRA-using companies then moving to a VSTS-using company... meh. Both are pretty crappy. I'm not sure one is significantly more crappy than the other.
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@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@pie_flavor yeah, except the Rust ecosystem is still a mess, so for most use cases, you have to write almost everything from scratch. There are DB drivers, there are HTTP servers, there are templating engines, but there's nothing that could connect them all together. Also, how futures work is about to change completely (technically not a breaking change, because until now, they were provided by 3rd party library). I'd give it 2 more years before using it for web.
You clearly aren't looking.
Can I replace my Rails/Django/Flask already?
Well, probably not yet. While the basics are there, many of the handy utility libs that make working with many popular frameworks so quick and easy are still missing. If your service primarily provides an API to be consumed by other computers, requires little external services and you are happy with writing most SQL yourself, then Yes, You Can! Otherwise, we would not recommend it just yet.
I mentioned I was having success writing a forum in it.
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@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
All the Rust programmers out there, I'm looking at it and seems nice. Typed and all that. How is the development experience on windows? Glitchy? Can anyone comment?
The only free IDE worth looking at is IntelliJ IDEA with Rust plugin, and it lacks debugger support (you can do it in command line, or you can pay for CLion license which has all the same features, plus debugger). But other than that, it's very nice for pre-alpha product. Before that, I've used Notepad++ and command line, and had no problems getting it working too. In general, setting up Rust on Windows is easier than setting up open-source C projects. Oh, and you don't have to care about dependencies because Cargo does everything for you.
VS Code also works, and for a while I couldn't get IDEA autocompletion to work so I rolled with VS Code. It also supports debugging.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@gąska Back when I tried Rust a few years back it was just the CLI and sublime text. Setting up is what I was worried about cos anytime I think about installing stuff that is not windows ish I compare it to getting theano and cuda to work on Windows holy shit balls that's an experience!
Everything works seamlessly on Windows (except for a couple of third party libraries that insist on doing things Their Way). The only extra step on Windows is that to install Rust you have to install the VS 2013 libraries, which you can actually download independent of VS 2013.