Initiative Q - Money from nowhere?
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@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
@weng said in Money from nowhere?:
My wallet contains 6 payment cards.
2
3
3
7Is your wallet like two inches thick holy crap!
About an inch and a quarter.
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@weng said in Money from nowhere?:
@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
@weng said in Money from nowhere?:
My wallet contains 6 payment cards.
2
3
3
7Is your wallet like two inches thick holy crap!
About an inch and a quarter.
So 1.069 inches?
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@lorne-kates said in Money from nowhere?:
Now how are you going to fill all those spaces with wireless internet?
My car broke down the other day, and I needed other transportation. It took me two frickin hours to install the Lyft app on my phone. I installed the app inside, where I had WiFi, but it needed confirmation by text message to prove the phone number I gave it was my phone, so I had to go outside and wander around the parking lot in search of a signal. Half an hour later, I finally managed to get confirmation by phone call, on the second try, because I never did get any texts. Go back inside to WiFi to continue creating the account. Read the TOS and privacy policy; accept them. Confirmation has expired. Back outside to try to find a cell signal again.
This was in the heart of Silicon Valley, the most technologically advanced place on the planet. If we don't have reliable wireless internet here, how do you think that's going to happen in Outer Bumfuckistan?
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@hardwaregeek said in Money from nowhere?:
This was in the heart of Silicon Valley, the most technologically advanced place on the planet.
When did that happen? Did all the douchey greedy assholes making useless companies to try and vacuum up dollars from other douchey greedy assholes all move away? Or are you posting this from a time portal into 1978?
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@lorne-kates said in Money from nowhere?:
Also, you're presenting a cookie notification, but no way to decline it. You don't understand what a cookie notification is for, do you?
Toby Faire, that's not unique; that criticism is true of 99.9% of the cookie notifications on the web.
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
I remember hearing how the car rental place would take a $50 surcharge on for unpaid tolls - don't know how that's handled now
Every car I've rented in the last few years has had FasTrack (or the local equivalent) installed. If you activate it, ever, they charge you $arbitrary/day, for every day of the rental, even if you never go near a toll booth.
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@twelvebaud said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Because you could go buy bread with it
When? Your Economic Theory page presupposes widespread adoption, and believes that it'll happen using cryptocurrency market valuation as justification, but actual adoption by vendors of Bitcoin was never significant (though some high-profile companies did so for a time) and now is practically nonexistent. Why would my local Super Duper Mart accept Q for a Nuka-Cola instead of the currency of the land, bottlecaps?
Because they can get more buyers when accepting Q.
and you could sell it to the Q monetary committee for US$.
When?
Once the system is live.
And what's going to stop a run on them if the realized market value of a Q goes below peg?
The Monetary Committee will manage reserves and provide incentives to deter a run - similar to how governments do it, with appropriate adjustments to our strengths and weaknesses.
@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
There are vast tracks of land that will never have wireless internet - unless we get full global satellite service.
We have that already. It has ridiculously slow speeds and data caps, and costs an arm and a leg for equipment ... so it's about at the same level as land-based providers.
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@djls45 said in Money from nowhere?:
@sockpuppet7 said in Money from nowhere?:
paper driver's license
Paper?! Not plastic? :/
"Plastics, please" wouldn't have the same ring to it, would it?
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:Excellent questions, that are discussed in detail in the Economic Model page. One important point is that Qs are released gradually to match economic activity, and can be sold to Q's monetary committee for ~$1.
Awesome. I wanna sell my Qs. Give me my money. Where's the link to that.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Of course, but having a payment network with an exclusive currency is what allows us to get wide adoption.
... hypothetically, since you don't have one yet.
Exactly. Hypothetically.
We just started. That's' why early users get 100 or 1000 times more Qs than those that will join where it already looks like this is going to succeed.@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
This is the first forum to discuss Q (remember we haven't officially launched yet, just sent the link to a few friends), so it's a great way for us to collect feedback.
Oh we have plenty of feedback.
For example, starting a business based on "I think people don't want cards" or "I think people want to pay with their phones" is bullshit if those thoughts aren't backed by any actual research.
And building a critical mass for X when nobody even knows exactly what X is is really dumb. If your business can't survive without a critical mass, it can't survive period. (Again: I bring up the example of Klout, which I hope you guys have studied.) It reminds me of the old classic from one of the earliest bubbles: "A company for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is". That's exactly what you're doing right now.
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that is exactly the vision: After you get to critical mass, get the world's top talent to design the ideal payment network, and have them focus on functionality and efficiency, rather than "how do I get users to adopt it, even though no one is using it yet".
If you don't think that will result in a far superior system, we'll agree to disagree.
But the most important feedback I have for you is: I want my goddamned money. Where's my fucking money? I got you 5 email addresses, you owe me $60,000 or something ridiculous, pay up.
Enough.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Money from nowhere?:
Initiative Qcheers,
I always take free moneys. It could not possibly be an e-mail adress gathering operation or so, nooo!
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
After you get to critical mass, get the world's top talent to design the ideal payment network, and have them focus on functionality and efficiency, rather than "how do I get users to adopt it, even though no one is using it yet".
How are you proposing to pay them to do this? Serious question, since while I can imagine there might be some VC groups that might fund ideas, I can't imagine there'll be a ton of them who'll throw tons of money at something that's JUST an idea without anything built up to support it yet, and top talent doesn't really come cheap.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that is exactly the vision: After you get to critical mass, get the world's top talent to design the ideal payment network, and have them focus on functionality and efficiency, rather than "how do I get users to adopt it, even though no one is using it yet".
If you don't think that will result in a far superior system, we'll agree to disagree.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Money from nowhere?:
something that's JUST an idea
That's the funniest part: there is no idea.
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@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@e4tmyl33t said in Money from nowhere?:
something that's JUST an idea
That's the funniest part: there is no idea.
Mmm...there's an idea there, just a really really vague one without many specifics.
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@e4tmyl33t said in Money from nowhere?:
@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@e4tmyl33t said in Money from nowhere?:
something that's JUST an idea
That's the funniest part: there is no idea.
Mmm...there's an idea there, just a really really vague one without many specifics.
No. "I want a perfect payment system" is not an idea. Just like "I want everyone to be happy" isn't.
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@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@weng said in Money from nowhere?:
@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
@weng said in Money from nowhere?:
My wallet contains 6 payment cards.
2
3
3
7Is your wallet like two inches thick holy crap!
About an inch and a quarter.
So 1.069 inches?
I think it's the diameter, not thickness, of a quarter.
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@weng said in Money from nowhere?:
@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
@weng said in Money from nowhere?:
My wallet contains 6 payment cards.
2
3
3
7Is your wallet like two inches thick holy crap!
About an inch and a quarter.
So 1.069 inches?
I think it's the diameter, not thickness, of a quarter.
Nope.
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@boomzilla I had a professor that would do that during lectures (And a miracle occurs). He did it when the long algebraic derivation wasn't all that important though. Here, it's more underpants gnome territory:
- have an idea
- get a critical mass
- ???
- Profit!
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@e4tmyl33t said in Money from nowhere?:
and top talent doesn't really come cheap.
But "top talent" does. And then you get things like this.
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@lorne-kates said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
There are currently 7 billion people (give or take a few) in the world.
You're proposing to let 7 million people go without the ability to participate in commerce?
We're not aiming to replace every single financial transaction in the world. Just to be the best solution for most.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Additionally, in small amounts you could allow transactions when internet is down.
So now you've added a whole other level of complexity not addressed by anything you've said so far. What is a small amount? If there was supposed to be a central server or something for validating transactions, does everyone now have to run a copy of the server's logic for these offline transactions? Who is responsible for transmitting the transactions when connected? How long until the offline transactions become stale? What if the transaction is NEVER completed?
How much is "small"? How many small transactions are allowed? How do you enforce this? What's to keep someone from double-spending? Or turning off wifi and nickle/diming an account dry, without ever tripping off an online security system?
What does a fraudulent transaction even look like?
What if someone does an offline transaction, then demands a refund or cancellation, but the buyer is offline?
Great questions, and there is no single answer how to best balance all the considerations. However, note that this is not a new concept: checks and carbon copy credit card are offline transactions.
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@lorne-kates said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
This is the first forum to discuss Q (remember we haven't officially launched yet, just sent the link to a few friends), so it's a great way for us to collect feedback.
You launched a currency plan without ever getting feedback?
Yes, because feedback can only be collected once in your lifetime.
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@lorne-kates said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Of course, but having a payment network with an exclusive currency is what allows us to get wide adoption.
What will you do when Q currency is traced to buying and selling child porn?
What will you tell the US when they find Q currency is being used to fund terrorism?
The same thing banks and PayPal do - Follow all regulations and report accordingly.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
However, note that this is not a new concept: checks and carbon copy credit card are offline transactions.
There's also this thing called money :gasp:
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as a bit of constructive idea:
look at the alternative payment system of the WIR Bank in Switzerland.
WIR-Währung
Sie suchen ein Netzwerk, das Sie unterstützt? Und Kredite, mit denen Sie Ihre Ziele erreichen? Dann kommen Sie ins stärkste KMU-Netzwerk der Schweiz.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that is exactly the vision:
I'm not saying I don't like it, I actually think it's kind of clever to run a company ass-backwards.
I'm just saying it's stupid.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
After you get to critical mass, get the world's top talent to design the ideal payment network, and have them focus on functionality and efficiency, rather than "how do I get users to adopt it, even though no one is using it yet".
The problem is none of the people you've signed up have signed up to use Q as a payment processor. They've all signed up because of your vague promise that you're going to give them money, no strings attached.
The only "critical mass" you have is people's email addresses. None of these people are interested in having a Q app on their cellphone, or putting a Q card in their wallet. (At least: they haven't demonstrated that interest.)
I signed up for your dumb free Q moneys, and I don't want a fucking Q app on my phone. I'm perfectly happy with my credit and debit cards. To give just one example.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
If you don't think that will result in a far superior system, we'll agree to disagree.
Well so far you don't have a lot to show for it.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Enough.
I know a quick and easy way you could shut me up about giving me my money, and it'd only cost 60 grand.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Everything you said applies to every bank, payment provider, PayPal etc.
Banks have FDIC insurance. So no, that is not true of banks.
I don't use shitty internet payment providers or PayPal as a store of value specifically because they don't. If you keep lots of money in PayPal, you're an idiot.
You are confusing unrelated issues. FDIC is for fractional reserve risks, not to protect from records being erased. No government insures citizens against their currency losing value.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
We, however, have a dedicated currency, and that could be manipulated the same way irresponsible governments fund their expenses by printing money. That's why we will give away that right to an independent committee chosen by all Q stakeholders.
Can I run for this committee under the "As Corrupt As Possible All The Money Comes to Me" political party?
You are aware that your monetary system is already being run by people that you indirectly voted for?
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Because you could go buy bread with it, and you could sell it to the Q monetary committee for US$.
I wanna sell it. Right now. Where's the page for that. I can't find it.
You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of time.
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
But "top talent" does. And then you get things like this.
Or the Ethereum programming language which has had so many corner cases and complications that, dozens of times, it's resulted in contracts that don't do what their programmers assume they will and let people steal money.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
If they push too much, sellers will abandon.
Right; but don't worry, they're 100% loyal to these Q people!!!!!
After all, VISA has only been propping up their business for 30 years. But these Q guys ran a pyramid scheme!
If and when the Q network is launched, there is already critical mass. That's the point.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
You are confusing unrelated issues. FDIC is for fractional reserve risks, not to protect from records being erased. No government insures citizens against their currency losing value.
Except Paypal does fractional reserve.
And you don't know yet whether you will or not, because you don't even yet have a product. How do I know you won't end up doing fractional reserve 3 months down the line?
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of time.
You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of fuck you give me money.
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@kurt-c-pause said in Money from nowhere?:
@sockpuppet7 said in Money from nowhere?:
Initiative Qcheers,
I always take free moneys. It could not possibly be an e-mail adress gathering operation or so, nooo!An e-mail database where you expect most of the people to be gullible. That'll probably have some value in the black market.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that is exactly the vision:
I'm not saying I don't like it, I actually think it's kind of clever to run a company ass-backwards.
I'm just saying it's stupid.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
After you get to critical mass, get the world's top talent to design the ideal payment network, and have them focus on functionality and efficiency, rather than "how do I get users to adopt it, even though no one is using it yet".
The problem is none of the people you've signed up have signed up to use Q as a payment processor. They've all signed up because of your vague promise that you're going to give them money, no strings attached.
The only "critical mass" you have is people's email addresses. None of these people are interested in having a Q app on their cellphone, or putting a Q card in their wallet. (At least: they haven't demonstrated that interest.)
They're not interested now, but they could become interested once Q registers millions of users, and additional Qs are reserved for installing the app. Step by step...
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
They're not interested now, but they could become interested once Q registers millions of users, and additional Qs are reserved for installing the app. Step by step...
So you're going to bribe people more internetpointzzz to install the app? By the time you start paying people you're going to be billions in the hole.
I just want to know when I get my damned payout.
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@kurt-c-pause said in Money from nowhere?:
as a bit of constructive idea:
look at the alternative payment system of the WIR Bank in Switzerland.
WIR-Währung
Sie suchen ein Netzwerk, das Sie unterstützt? Und Kredite, mit denen Sie Ihre Ziele erreichen? Dann kommen Sie ins stärkste KMU-Netzwerk der Schweiz.
Thank you!
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
But I remind you again, step 1 is: "associate our brand with a giant pyramid scheme that lies to people about how much money they'll ever get from it".
See, this is why so many people don't respect your arguments on here.
a giant pyramid scheme
A pyramid scheme is a system where, for example, you pay me $5 in order to gain the right to get a bunch of other people to pay you $5. That's not happening here; if you sign up with someone's link, it doesn't cost you anything, and if someone else signs up with your link, they don't pay you for it. Instead, Initiative Q is "paying" everyone directly, essentially making an investment in building out a network of people who are interested in using the Q payment network.
that lies to people about how much money they'll ever get from it
Seems to me they're completely up-front about it: they'll get a specific amount of Q, which will eventually be worth $1 each if they manage to get the system established. Where's the lie?
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
A pyramid scheme is a system where, for example, you pay me $5 in order to gain the right to get a bunch of other people to pay you $5. That's not happening here; if you sign up with someone's link, it doesn't cost you anything, and if someone else signs up with your link, they don't pay you for it. Instead, Initiative Q is "paying" everyone directly, essentially making an investment in building out a network of people who are interested in using the Q payment network.
So far they aren't paying in anything but IOUs.
@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
Seems to me they're completely up-front about it: they'll get a specific amount of Q, which will eventually be worth $1 each if they manage to get the system established. Where's the lie?
It's the same kind of lie when you buy a lottery ticket and the commercial's like "buy a lottery ticket and then have a 5-day vacation on the moon".
If the odds of something happening are practically zero, and you're out there ensuring people it'll happen any second now, I call that a lie. You're welcome to disagree with me.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Even if Initiative Q is wildly successful, it would be more than 10 years until it is used everywhere. Wireless internet should be ubiquitous by then.
Hahahaha right.
This doesn't seem like such an incredible prediction to me. It's been about a decade since the introduction of the iPhone brought smartphones into the mainstream, and today they're just about everywhere, worldwide. Another decade is plenty of time to fill in the margins.
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Excellent questions, that are discussed in detail in the Economic Model page. One important point is that Qs are released gradually to match economic activity, and can be sold to Q's monetary committee for ~$1.
Awesome. I wanna sell my Qs. Give me my money. Where's the link to that.
Did you ever watch Square One as a kid? Seeing some of the stuff you're posting on here, it reminds me of a specific scene from there, long long ago, depicting a clueless customer at a bank. The teller says that if they deposit their money at the bank, it'll earn interest, and over the course of a year it'll earn [this much]. So she gives the teller a thousand dollars, then immediately asks him for [1000 + this much] back, and never quite seems to grasp the explanation of why that won't work. (Bear in mind that this is a kids' show, and it's meant to be obvious to the children in the audience exactly what's wrong with this silly adult's demands.)
But the most important feedback I have for you is: I want my goddamned money. Where's my fucking money? I got you 5 email addresses, you owe me $60,000 or something ridiculous, pay up.
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@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
For example, a CD can theoretically hold on to information for about a decade if I recall correctly.Much longer if it's manufactured correctly.
Until you up longer have the technology that can read it.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
We're not aiming to replace every single financial transaction in the world. Just to be the best solution for most.
So now I have to use at least two currencies all the time?
:nope:
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
This doesn't seem like such an incredible prediction to me. It's been about a decade since the introduction of the iPhone brought smartphones into the mainstream, and today they're just about everywhere, worldwide. Another decade is plenty of time to fill in the margins.
People said the same thing about telephones in the 1930s. There were still unserved areas and "party lines" well into the 1980s.
People tend to underestimate how long the long tail actually is. Probably because the people making the decisions are sitting on the 37th floor of an office building in a hugely-dense city they've literally never left for any reason, and assume the entire US is the same way.
@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
Did you ever watch Square One as a kid? Seeing some of the stuff you're posting on here, it reminds me of a specific scene from there, long long ago, depicting a clueless customer at a bank. The tell
Blah blah blah, the "give me money" thing is obviously a joke. I don't actually expect them to give me money. Although it'd be great.
@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
Until you up longer have the technology that can read it.
One of the best Cowboy Bebop episodes is the one where they get mailed a video cassette, and have to go on this long-ass adventure through a flooded shopping mall full of creatures to find a VCR. When they do, they realize they got a Betamax VCR and can't play the tape anyway.
I laughed.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
I just want to know when I get my damned payout.
Chill! They have to build the pyramid sufficiently first.
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
But I remind you again, step 1 is: "associate our brand with a giant pyramid scheme that lies to people about how much money they'll ever get from it".
See, this is why so many people don't respect your arguments on here.
Those people are idiot morons themselves, then.
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I'm proposing we use air as money. Anyone interested just fill a balloon with air. When everyone has a balloon full of air, our target will be for it to be worth US$ 100.00
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
So far they aren't paying in anything but IOUs.
Which does not make it a pyramid scheme.
If the odds of something happening are practically zero, and you're out there ensuring people it'll happen any second now, I call that a lie. You're welcome to disagree with me.
This is true. It's also not representative of what's actually going on here. Some
seems to have told you a bunch of wild promises are being made that were never actually made. I find the discussion of this system to be quite straightforward and sober on the subject of this being a non-guaranteed venture that's likely to take several years to come to fruition.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
If and when the Q network is launched, there is already critical mass. That's the point.
I need to learn this weird marketing-speak language. No, not really
Translations for
critical mass? I'm thinking something like
fits the bill...
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
So you're going to bribe people more internetpointzzz to install the app? By the time you start paying people you're going to be billions in the hole.
Then fees will be 50%. But only temporarily.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
going to be billions in the hole.
K thought I read somewhere they already set aside two billion virtual dollars for this.
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
Another decade is plenty of time to fill in the margins.
Except there's no economic incentive. "Sure, we'll spend millions (or is that Billions?) of dollars so those 2 people in North Dakota can get on the internet!"
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@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
For example, a CD can theoretically hold on to information for about a decade if I recall correctly.Much longer if it's manufactured correctly.
Until you up longer have the technology that can read it.
I think you a word there...
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
Until you up longer have the technology that can read it.
One of the best Cowboy Bebop episodes is the one where they get mailed a video cassette, and have to go on this long-ass adventure through a flooded shopping mall full of creatures to find a VCR. When they do, they realize they got a Betamax VCR and can't play the tape anyway.
I laughed.
Incidentally, I actually recently watched that exact episode. Haven't seen any others, but I did see that one. Plus one for pop culture references!
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
@tsaukpaetra said in Money from nowhere?:
@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
For example, a CD can theoretically hold on to information for about a decade if I recall correctly.Much longer if it's manufactured correctly.
Until you up longer have the technology that can read it.
I think you a word there...
No, I autocorrects a word, there's a difference!
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