So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
if you focused less on your hallucinations that people hate naming things and want to replace them with meaningless numbers
I think you're the one that wanted to replace paths and file descriptors with meaningless numbers, and shove that into metadata instead. Or have I also been completely misreading the last several hundred posts?
No, you're more or less right. But you also seem to think that filenames and paths are synonyms. Because why else would you quote me talking about filenames and reply with something about paths? No, they're not synonyms. They're very different concepts.
Your filenames are worthless without all the rest of the hierarchical data. Just like filenames in a path name are worthless without the rest of the hierarchical data in a path.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
At this point I wonder why were even talking about this thing-we-don't-want-and-shouldn't-want-and-won't-be-made.
It's what we do.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
There will be no command line.
Blakey, at least, will be exceedingly happy.
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
I have a feeling you've lost track of what problems it's even supposed to solve. So please tell me - which problems that my concept doesn't actually fix do you have in mind, exactly?
Stuff like spaces in paths being misinterpreted.
Yes. And how does the problem of spaces in paths gets reintroduced in my concept?
Spaces in your hierarchies. Unless you were really serious about only allowing GUI selection of files, I guess.
Well, not necessarily GUI. But there absolutely shouldn't be any way to directly convert arbitrary string into file handle.
And if you actually really still have paths in order to be able to share files with other systems but you just don't let users directly use those, I guess.
For network shares (and for local partitions also - so it's not a network-only problem but something you have all the time), all you really need is a single level of unique IDs, in addition to partition-specific file ID. Like drive letters on Windows when you map network drives. Since it's always 1 level deep, and never more than 1 level deep, and never less than 1 level deep, and (in my concept) not in text form, it doesn't really have much in common with actual paths.
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Note that I said human-written. An ID-based ecosystem would most likely (well, almost certainly) rely much more on dedicated tooling rather than random text files everywhere. So you'd select the certificate from GUI, and the server would save its ID to config for future reference, but you as the user would never have to see this ID.
E_NUKE_FROM_ORBIT
You know, I'm starting to think Blakey was right that you're still stuck in 1970s.
You're just too enamored of
shiny
to be able to see when you're repeating history or ignoring its lessons.Has there previously been an actual working system that got away with file paths entirely? I haven't heard of any. If you know one, I'd be glad if you shared it here.
Or are you talking about general life lessons of "never try to replace the old with the new no matter what, ever"? Because it's a very valuable and practical rule that helps a lot in life, but it doesn't really tell anything about what's wrong with my design.
This is like that Joel article about rewriting software and you end up having to go through and fix a lot of the bugs that were fixed in the old code that made it so ugly in the first place and then you end up with something just as ugly because your original pristine concept was so shiny that it blinded you to all of the things that the old code had to do.
If we didn't put any actual dev hours in it, no harm's done, right? It's exactly because I want to avoid this specific scenario that I'm putting it up for discussion.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Has there previously been an actual working system that got away with file paths entirely? I haven't heard of any. If you know one, I'd be glad if you shared it here.
CP/M?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
there will absolutely be no backward compatibility whatsoever.
On a system you don't actually want to see implemented? Gotcha.
At this point I wonder why were even talking about this thing-we-don't-want-and-shouldn't-want-and-won't-be-made.
Because it lets us explore alternative designs unconstrained by the legacy of all the bad decisions we've made in the past. "How could C look like if we knew back in the 70s everything about programming language design that we know today?", etc. It's usually way more interesting than just talking about what we can do right here right now, and while such discussions aren't immediately useful, sometimes an interesting idea springs up that actually can be used in real world.
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@Gąska You still haven't even attempted to answer my question. How would this work for HTML, specifically?
As I said, I have a bias because I used it under circumstances that are the next best thing to this proposal. And it sucked. Horribly. And when there's a proposal that can only work if everyone, everywhere buys into it 100%...it's a null proposition because it can never happen. Ever.
If you can't get there incrementally, it's not worth even discussing.
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@Zerosquare said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Has there previously been an actual working system that got away with file paths entirely? I haven't heard of any. If you know one, I'd be glad if you shared it here.
CP/M?
/r/iamverysmart
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@Benjamin-Hall I'll get back to you later, I promise. But a quick preview of what I'm going to write: it's hard; it would probably be easier if it wasn't HTML; packages/archives/containers might help.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Has there previously been an actual working system that got away with file paths entirely? I haven't heard of any. If you know one, I'd be glad if you shared it here.
Early computers barely had a filesystem to start with. In fact, you often had effectively Partition 0 File 0 for each device.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Benjamin-Hall I'll get back to you later, I promise. But a quick preview of what I'm going to write: it's hard; it would probably be easier if it wasn't HTML; packages/archives/containers might help.
But HTML is everywhere. If the proposal can't handle this, it's functionally useless.
Requiring blessed, extra tooling is a non-starter. And means that new learners have to learn yet another tool just to write the first thing. I see walled gardens everywhere. And I've been in one for 6 years now (we're an Apple school with one-to-one iPads). Ugh. No thanks.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Because it lets us explore alternative designs unconstrained by the legacy of all the bad decisions we've made in the past.
Then you should never have started the conversation with "Let's get rid of %LEGACY_CONCEPT%" and instead "What would be a good way to X"
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Oh, and speaking of differentiating files based on name, Windows apparently has no problem with two files named exactly the same. Behold!
Look, ma! I've done it on accident!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Because it lets us explore alternative designs unconstrained by the legacy of all the bad decisions we've made in the past.
Then you should never have started the conversation with "Let's get rid of %LEGACY_CONCEPT%" and instead "What would be a good way to X"
Do you really think it would be any different if I started with "what would be a good way to guarantee no program ever fucks up file/directory references, or at least in 99.99% of cases"?
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Because it lets us explore alternative designs unconstrained by the legacy of all the bad decisions we've made in the past.
Then you should never have started the conversation with "Let's get rid of %LEGACY_CONCEPT%" and instead "What would be a good way to X"
Do you really think it would be any different if I started with "what would be a good way to guarantee no program ever fucks up file/directory references, or at least in 99.99% of cases"?
Threads are free, and you're welcome to try it and find out.
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@Tsaukpaetra I specifically asked what you think.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra I specifically asked what you think.
What I think is irrelevant. It's results that matter.
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@Tsaukpaetra and what do you think the result would be?
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra and what do you think the result would be?
Civilised Discourse.
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@Tsaukpaetra it's hard to take you seriously when you only reply with memes.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra it's hard to take you seriously when you only reply with memes.
Why would you take me seriously on a forum meant to make fun of curious perversions in technology? I'm thinking you're starting out on the wrong assumptions here...
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@Tsaukpaetra well, you gave me a tip on what I should've done. At this point, I'm pretty sure I should never follow your tips as they're intentionally bad.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra well, you gave me a tip on what I should've done. At this point, I'm pretty sure I should never follow your tips as they're intentionally bad.
He can be taught!Though, since you didn't follow this up with "outside the Help categories" I suppose more teaching may be in order...
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@Tsaukpaetra is it really teaching if I'm only doing what I've always done?
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra is it really teaching if I'm only doing what I've always done?
By some measure, yes.
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@Tsaukpaetra you're using a really weird measuring system.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Tsaukpaetra you're using a really weird measuring system.
It's not that hard when there is no unit.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Or are you talking about general life lessons of "never try to replace the old with the new no matter what, ever"? Because it's a very valuable and practical rule that helps a lot in life, but it doesn't really tell anything about what's wrong with my design.
This was a general statement regarding you accusing me of being stuck in the 1970s. It has nothing specifically to do with anything else in this thread, in and of itself. I've already covered the problems with your design elsewhere.
If we didn't put any actual dev hours in it, no harm's done, right? It's exactly because I want to avoid this specific scenario that I'm putting it up for discussion.
That's good. Now help me help you.
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Or are you talking about general life lessons of "never try to replace the old with the new no matter what, ever"? Because it's a very valuable and practical rule that helps a lot in life, but it doesn't really tell anything about what's wrong with my design.
This was a general statement regarding you accusing me of being stuck in the 1970s.
Given your allergic reaction to anything GUI, what else could I say?
It has nothing specifically to do with anything else in this thread, in and of itself.
And neither did my 1970s remark.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Or are you talking about general life lessons of "never try to replace the old with the new no matter what, ever"? Because it's a very valuable and practical rule that helps a lot in life, but it doesn't really tell anything about what's wrong with my design.
This was a general statement regarding you accusing me of being stuck in the 1970s.
Given your allergic reaction to anything GUI, what else could I say?
Now you're putting words in my mouth?
It has nothing specifically to do with anything else in this thread, in and of itself.
And neither did my 1970s remark.
I figured you were just on a roll with being wrong, actually.
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Hmm...are you actually
inon @tart_savor'sworldplanet?would make sense
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Or are you talking about general life lessons of "never try to replace the old with the new no matter what, ever"? Because it's a very valuable and practical rule that helps a lot in life, but it doesn't really tell anything about what's wrong with my design.
This was a general statement regarding you accusing me of being stuck in the 1970s.
Given your allergic reaction to anything GUI, what else could I say?
Now you're putting words in my mouth?
I stand corrected. You absolutely never ever said, quote unquote, "E_NUKE_FROM_ORBIT", with no further explanation, in response to my suggestion that what's traditionally done via myriad of random text configs could also be done with GUI controls.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
Or are you talking about general life lessons of "never try to replace the old with the new no matter what, ever"? Because it's a very valuable and practical rule that helps a lot in life, but it doesn't really tell anything about what's wrong with my design.
This was a general statement regarding you accusing me of being stuck in the 1970s.
Given your allergic reaction to anything GUI, what else could I say?
Now you're putting words in my mouth?
I stand corrected. You absolutely never ever said, quote unquote, "E_NUKE_FROM_ORBIT", with no further explanation, in response to my suggestion that what's traditionally done via myriad of random text configs could also be done with GUI control.
So you're saying that "all things GUI" is the same as "the only way to ever refer to a file is to use an OS provided file lookup widget."
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@boomzilla I'm saying that if you only reply with a meme, don't expect anything more than a meme in response.
What's wrong with OS-provided file lookup widget?
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla I'm saying that if you only reply with a meme, don't expect anything more than a meme in response.
Meme better.
What's wrong with OS-provided file lookup widget?
I never said anything was wrong with it. Think about why you think I did and then think about what I wrote: "the only way to ever refer to a file is to use an OS provided file lookup widget."
That's one of the Jeffest ideas I've heard in a long time.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
At this point I wonder why were even talking about this
but ... somebody is WRONG ... on the INTERNET !
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@boomzilla if you shudder at the thought that OS-provided file lookup widget is the only way to ever refer to a file (that your application hasn't created and hasn't learned of in any other way - say, by talking to another application), then clearly there must be something about the OS-provided file lookup widget that makes it not a good choice for your use case - as in, something wrong.
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@Luhmann You forgot to link
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla if you shudder at the thought that OS-provided file lookup widget is the only way to ever refer to a file (that your application hasn't created and hasn't learned of in any other way - say, by talking to another application), then clearly there must be something about the OS-provided file lookup widget that makes it not a good choice for your use case - as in, something wrong.
So saying that a hammer is the wrong tool for driving a screw is equivalent to saying that there's something wrong with the hammer? dude? You're smarter than this.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
only reply with memes
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@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla if you shudder at the thought that OS-provided file lookup widget is the only way to ever refer to a file (that your application hasn't created and hasn't learned of in any other way - say, by talking to another application), then clearly there must be something about the OS-provided file lookup widget that makes it not a good choice for your use case - as in, something wrong.
So saying that a hammer is the wrong tool for driving a screw is equivalent to saying that there's something wrong with the hammer? dude? You're smarter than this.
Look who's being pedantic about overly literal word definitions now.
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
you gave me a tip
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
you're using a really weird measuring system
duh ... imperial
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla if you shudder at the thought that OS-provided file lookup widget is the only way to ever refer to a file (that your application hasn't created and hasn't learned of in any other way - say, by talking to another application), then clearly there must be something about the OS-provided file lookup widget that makes it not a good choice for your use case - as in, something wrong.
So saying that a hammer is the wrong tool for driving a screw is equivalent to saying that there's something wrong with the hammer? dude? You're smarter than this.
Look who's being pedantic about overly literal word definitions now.
No one? You're making dumb generalizations and ridiculous inferences. Personally, I think you realize that I was right all along and don't know how to gracefully get out of this situation, but I doubt we'll ever know.
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I'm campaigning to become mod in 2020
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@Luhmann You expect one of the existing mods or (god forbid) the admins to promote someone?
Wouldn't that be work?
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@boomzilla okay, okay, calm down. Let me ask again.
What's
wrong withnot very good about OS-provided file lookup widget?
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
@boomzilla okay, okay, calm down. Let me ask again.
What's
wrong withnot very good about OS-provided file lookup widget?Sometimes you don't even have a GUI. Sometimes it's easier to type a path name than to select a file in a GUI. How does that work on a CLI?
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@Gąska said in So I decided to try to update part of my toolchain...:
OS-provided file lookup widget
I think it might be about the fact that it will be the only tool.
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Man, you guys are so passionate about filesystems that even 's ability to grow threads would be challenged.