Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
(1) Steam puts itself in the systray thing if you just click the X to close it. To make it actually shut down, you have to use the menus, which is Steam's own , but one repeated across many, many programs.
Steam actually runs as a service, which is why it's able to install games and stuff like .NET frameworks and DirectX and C++ runtimes without needing to ask for elevation.
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@ben_lubar said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
(1) Steam puts itself in the systray thing if you just click the X to close it. To make it actually shut down, you have to use the menus, which is Steam's own , but one repeated across many, many programs.
Steam actually runs as a service, which is why it's able to install games and stuff like .NET frameworks and DirectX and C++ runtimes without needing to ask for elevation.
Yes, I know. I meant the Steam *UI*.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@ben_lubar said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
(1) Steam puts itself in the systray thing if you just click the X to close it. To make it actually shut down, you have to use the menus, which is Steam's own , but one repeated across many, many programs.
Steam actually runs as a service, which is why it's able to install games and stuff like .NET frameworks and DirectX and C++ runtimes without needing to ask for elevation.
Yes, I know. I meant the Steam *UI*.
The UI runs at the same time as the service and shuts down at the same time as the service.
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@ben_lubar said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@ben_lubar said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
(1) Steam puts itself in the systray thing if you just click the X to close it. To make it actually shut down, you have to use the menus, which is Steam's own , but one repeated across many, many programs.
Steam actually runs as a service, which is why it's able to install games and stuff like .NET frameworks and DirectX and C++ runtimes without needing to ask for elevation.
Yes, I know. I meant the Steam *UI*.
The UI runs at the same time as the service and shuts down at the same time as the service.
Which is funny because I've had the steam bootstrapper-whatever request escalation when installing a game.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Which is funny because I've had the steam bootstrapper-whatever request escalation when installing a game.
I suspect that might happen when a game insists on installing in some odd location rather than the default installation location. Or if publisher thinks the installer needs to do something weird like adding in extra device drivers (for “anti-piracy” reasons).
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@dkf said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Which is funny because I've had the steam bootstrapper-whatever request escalation when installing a game.
I suspect that might happen when a game insists on installing in some odd location rather than the default installation location. Or if publisher thinks the installer needs to do something weird like adding in extra device drivers (for “anti-piracy” reasons).
The most recent example was a game called Rumu, which was apparently compiled in .Net < 4. The Features On Demand installer totally freaked but eventually kinda worked.
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@ben_lubar said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@ben_lubar said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
(1) Steam puts itself in the systray thing if you just click the X to close it. To make it actually shut down, you have to use the menus, which is Steam's own , but one repeated across many, many programs.
Steam actually runs as a service, which is why it's able to install games and stuff like .NET frameworks and DirectX and C++ runtimes without needing to ask for elevation.
Yes, I know. I meant the Steam *UI*.
The UI runs at the same time as the service and shuts down at the same time as the service.
If you uncheck the "start when Windows starts" button in the Steam UI, the Steam UI does not start when you log in. If you play a game or look at the library or whatever, the Steam UI stays running unless you give it the "Exit" command from the "Steam" menu - the X in the corner of the window is interpreted to mean "minimise to the system tray / notification area". If you do that, and then do a "normal" shutdown of FCU (normal for FCU, that is), the Steam UI that you told not to start when Windows starts, um, well, it starts when Windows starts.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
the Steam UI that you told not to start when Windows starts, um, well, it starts when Windows starts.
That's because Windows did not start. Windows resumed. Your Web browsers also (probably) aren't run on startup but users find it convenient that they're back when they log back in.
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@heterodox said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
the Steam UI that you told not to start when Windows starts, um, well, it starts when Windows starts.
That's because Windows did not start. Windows resumed. Your Web browsers also (probably) aren't run on startup but users find it convenient that they're back when they log back in.
Except that it didn't resume. It was shut down and started again. It then resumed the applications that were running before. (That does make it ... interesting to see how to "clean-start" a running application without explicitly killing it with Task Manager.(1))
Everything else about the start looks like an old-style start, except that the running stuff is still running. That produces cognitive dissonance because the brain expects (through long habit) that stuff that I tell not to start when Windows starts ends up running when Windows starts.
Short version: it's a gross violation of the Principle of Least Astonishment, at least until we get used to checkboxes that say "Start when Windows starts" becoming meaningless. (Unless there's a way for applications to refuse to be bookmarked...)
(1) Example: if the application does something like some old versions of Firefox would do, you could have problems. It was far from unheard-of for it to end up in a state where it had no open windows but wouldn't quit, and trying to launch a new one merely added a new window to the running stub. These wouldn't work correctly, AND closing the window wouldn't quit the damaged instance. Restarting Windows was 100% reliable in clearing this, but not any more. Only Task Manager can fix it.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
"normal" shutdown of FCU (normal for FCU, that is), the Steam UI that you told not to start when Windows starts, um, well, it starts when Windows starts.
It doesn't do that for me.
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@marczellm Same. I may have unticked the "X minimizes to the status bar" option though.
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@benjamin-hall said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@marczellm Same. I may have unticked the "X minimizes to the status bar" option though.
There isn't a way to do that, as far as I can find in the Steam Beta client. I've long since trained myself to Steam/Exit it.
As far as Windows 10 FCU goes, it does try to restart applications on normal restarts. It might not always happen, though. (There's a lot of weirdness in Windows 10, unfortunately.) I don't like that in the Insider builds they tied the option to not do this to the option to finalize updates after a reboot using your login info; hopefully they'll separate these before the next update, but I doubt it.
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@marczellm said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
"normal" shutdown of FCU (normal for FCU, that is), the Steam UI that you told not to start when Windows starts, um, well, it starts when Windows starts.
It doesn't do that for me.
So you leave Steam running in the task bar tray, and do a normal shutdown of FCU, and it doesn't restart the Steam UI when you start the machine again?
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@parody @Steve_The_Cynic I have Windows FCU and it does not try to restart any application after a shut down.
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@marczellm said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@parody @Steve_The_Cynic I have Windows FCU and it does not try to restart any application after a shut down.
Hmm.. Interesting. How are you shutting it down?
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@marczellm said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@parody @Steve_The_Cynic I have Windows FCU and it does not try to restart any application after a shut down.
Hmm.. Interesting. How are you shutting it down?
One of the following:
- Hit Alt+F4 to have the following dialog appear:
and hit Enter - Use the power button at the bottom left of the Start menu
- Hit Alt+F4 to have the following dialog appear:
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Principle of Least Astonishment,
Varies (often diametrically opposed) between first time users and long time users....
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@marczellm said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@marczellm said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@parody @Steve_The_Cynic I have Windows FCU and it does not try to restart any application after a shut down.
Hmm.. Interesting. How are you shutting it down?
One of the following:
- Hit Alt+F4 to have the following dialog appear:
and hit Enter - Use the power button at the bottom left of the Start menu
Huh. That's what I do. Of course, I only see the restarted-applications thing if I leave something running, which I'm getting pretty religious about not doing any more. Or I just use my shortcut to
shutdown.exe
with the right flags on it.
- Hit Alt+F4 to have the following dialog appear:
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@thecpuwizard said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Principle of Least Astonishment,
Varies (often diametrically opposed) between first time users and long time users....
A good point, but there are lots and lots and lots of long time users.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
A good point, but there are lots and lots and lots of long time users.
What, maybe 0.1% of the worlds population who are significant enough users to have developed an accurate long term memory model?
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@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@marczellm said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@marczellm said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@parody @Steve_The_Cynic I have Windows FCU and it does not try to restart any application after a shut down.
Hmm.. Interesting. How are you shutting it down?
One of the following:
- Hit Alt+F4 to have the following dialog appear:
and hit Enter - Use the power button at the bottom left of the Start menu
Huh. That's what I do. Of course, I only see the restarted-applications thing if I leave something running, which I'm getting pretty religious about not doing any more. Or I just use my shortcut to
shutdown.exe
with the right flags on it.I push the power button on the box.
- Hit Alt+F4 to have the following dialog appear:
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I remember how I've once found an old PC with Windows 98 installed in my storage, and after booting it restored some random Explorer window from decade ago. You say it's back?
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@gąska said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
I remember how I've once found an old PC with Windows 98 installed in my storage, and after booting it restored some random Explorer window from decade ago. You say it's back?
Since it never went away, I'd say... yes?
I do believe you can find that option on 95 too, but I don't have a working VM to check...
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@tsaukpaetra ... You hide extensions for known file types?
Why on Earth would you do this?
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra ... You hide extensions for known file types?
Why on Earth would you do this?It doesn't bother me enough to change the default.
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@tsaukpaetra You will eventually open a malicious executable that looks like something else.
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra You will eventually open a malicious executable that looks like something else.
I've literally never done this.
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@tsaukpaetra There's a first time for everything, and it only has to happen once.
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra There's a first time for everything, and it only has to happen once.
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@tsaukpaetra You've spent far longer explaining why it's not really necessary to take the time to do it than it takes to uncheck the checkbox and hit OK.
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra You've spent far longer explaining why it's not really necessary to take the time to do it than it takes to uncheck the checkbox and hit OK.
I've spent longer never clicking on things that aren't what they seemed than explaining why it's not necessary to take the time to uncheck the checkbox and hit OK, time that ill always exceed the time explaining why it's not really necessary to take the time to do it and the time it takes to uncheck the checkbox and hit OK, so is it really worth the investment?
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@tsaukpaetra Yes, for the same reason that one avoids bullets when they're wearing bulletproof armor.
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra Yes, for the same reason that one avoids bullets when they're wearing bulletproof armor.
No, for the same reason one doesn't go into a battlefield in the first place.
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@tsaukpaetra i.e. never download anything ever?
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra i.e. never download anything ever?
Yep! I let my browser to that for me!
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@thecpuwizard said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@steve_the_cynic said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
A good point, but there are lots and lots and lots of long time users.
What, maybe 0.1% of the worlds population who are significant enough users to have developed an accurate long term memory model?
That's still 7 million people. And it's surely more than that. And people do easily remember simple patterns like "every time I use Shut Down when it starts again nothing's running", even if they wouldn't ever study patterns or even pay particular attention to them. The response is likely to be "Windows did one of those update things and now it doesn't work like it did" rather than anything "reasoned", but they will notice this.
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New behavior after the latest updates (not sure which exact one is responsible). Office 2013 opens and then closes immediately, the root cause is a licencing malfunction.
Trying to do an Online Repair results in Office fully uninstalling and then...nothing. Or not quite nothing, you can't reinstall Office as 'an installation is already in progress'. Thankfully there is a Fixit for this that then allows you reinstall Office.
This has happened on three computers now, Online Repair has worked properly in the past when I've had to use it.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
so is it really worth the investment?
It's one of the first things I do on every Windows install, along with turning off the alt+shift "accidentally change keyboard layout" shortcut.
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@hungrier said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
the alt+shift "accidentally change keyboard layout" shortcut.
Ah... I don't have multiple 🎹 layouts, oven never encountered this issue.
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra ... You hide extensions for known file types?
Why on Earth would you do this?The real question is:
WHY THE FUCK IS THIS THE DEFAULT
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@timebandit said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra ... You hide extensions for known file types?
Why on Earth would you do this?The real question is:
WHY THE FUCK IS THIS THE DEFAULT
Because Microsoft believed that plebs would be too confused if they let the user see something that should have been metadata as part of the file name.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@timebandit said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra ... You hide extensions for known file types?
Why on Earth would you do this?The real question is:
WHY THE FUCK IS THIS THE DEFAULT
Because Microsoft believed that plebs would be too confused if they let the user see something that should have been metadata as part of the file name.
a) Seeing the Extension is important. Spurious extensions are one common vulnerability point.
b) "a" notwithstanding, far too many users are confused by them....
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@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra ... You hide extensions for known file types?
Why on Earth would you do this?It doesn't bother me enough to change the default.
Obviously you don't do C++. Project.cpp, project.h, project.rc, project.idl (and more) - hmm which is which? DAMMIT, I don't remember what the damn icons mean!
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@dcon said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra ... You hide extensions for known file types?
Why on Earth would you do this?It doesn't bother me enough to change the default.
Obviously you don't do C++. Project.cpp, project.h, project.rc, project.idl (and more) - hmm which is which? DAMMIT, I don't remember what the damn icons mean!
The ones with the
h
icon are .h files. The ones with the++
are .cpp files. That gets me through 97% of my needs right there. ;)
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@tsaukpaetra And the other 3% just sit there nagging you and impeding productivity.
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra And the other 3% just sit there nagging you and impeding productivity.
Nagging? How so?
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@tsaukpaetra Needs that aren't being met don't nag you?
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra Needs that aren't being met don't nag you?
What needs?
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@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
The ones with the
h
icon are .h files. The ones with the++
are .cpp files. That gets me through 97% of my needs right there. ;)