What programming language people are migrating to?
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@raceprouk Can you blame them?
In the early days of the Open Source movement, Microsoft was blatantly, gleefully evil all over the computer industry. (They were essentially the Facebook of the day.)
Things have changed a lot since the antitrust trial happened, and particularly since Bill Gates stepped down as CEO. They've done quite a bit to clean up their act, but old habits die hard, both on the Open Source guys' side (not trusting Microsoft) and on Microsoft's (occasionally doing something you wouldn't expect from anyone but a mustache-twirling cartoon villain.) So progress has been slow.
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@dse said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
The problem with C# is that it was open-sourced late.
It's been an open standard since 2002.
Oh and that idiotic open source-tards hate it because it was designed by Microsoft. To the point where, for years, they were even shitting hate on Mono project which was an open source implementation of an open standard since 2004. But no, that's not "open source enough!"
Seriously, that reasoning is bullshit.
@dse said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
You may be against the idea of OSS and you maybe right. However, programming languages (like science) will grow much better if open.
Java's been open source since, what, 2006? And not just open specification, but actual open source. It's just now, in 2017, approaching the features C# had in 2007.
So, again, your reasoning is bullshit.
@dse said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Even now I cannot get any C# and assume dotnet-core capable of running it.
That's because it's been headed by morons for the last 3 years who have absolutely no idea what they're doing with their stewardship of the language. Definitely a problem, but a recent one. At the time Mono.JS was first created, that problem did not exist.
3 years ago you could take any standard C# 3.0 app and Mono would run it perfectly fine. (Some OS-specific frameworks were missing, but the core language features ran fine.)
@dse said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
So yeah, it is a shame because C# is clearly a better language than JavaScript or Java.
And yet you come in here and ass-pull 3 lame reasons why not to use it. Why?
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Things have changed a lot since the antitrust trial happened, and particularly since Bill Gates stepped down as CEO.
Which BTW happened in 2000.
And people say I have a long memory. Sheesh.
@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Microsoft's (occasionally doing something you wouldn't expect from anyone but a mustache-twirling cartoon villain.)
Like what exactly?
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@blakeyrat said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Like what exactly?
You've been doing this flame war since forever, you know what the arguments are.
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@blakeyrat said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Java's been open source since, what, 2006? And not just open specification, but actual open source. It's just now, in 2017, approaching the features C# had in 2007.
It is because Java sucks. Being open helped, but at the end Java sucks.
And yet you come in here and ass-pull 3 lame reasons why not to use it. Why?
Shoulder aliens to blame? No I did not say that
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@dse said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
It is because Java sucks. Being open helped, but at the end Java sucks.
So open source helps programming languages advance faster, unless they're Java specifically.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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@blakeyrat said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
So open source helps programming languages advance faster,
unless they're Java specificallyhowever, poor initial design and a need to maintain backwards compatibility can significantly hinder this.FTFY
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Relevant:
What language proposals would benefit from CLR changes? · dotnet csharplang · Discussion #317
If we were to plan for one language feature that requires a revision of the CLR, then we might as well do as many of them at the same time as make sense. What changes would we consider that would b...
It's garnered over 50 replies in less than 4 months.
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
It's garnered over 50 replies in less than 4 months.
They should have posted it in
garage here and harvested 4000 replies instead.
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@magus said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@wharrgarbl So, "Okay, lots of factors mean we had to take JS off the list, but it's absolutely the thing that would have been in first place by any measurement if we hadn't"
Good. Fine.
Our world is doomed.
Can't we just have something more reasonable that compiles into javascript?
Then we'd get the benefit of the includes being on the new language side, this way only what's used goes on the site?
maybe that's what I'll dick around with from now on. Something that reflects over a C# library and builds javascript codefile from it.
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@xaade said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
maybe that's what I'll dick around with from now on. Something that reflects over a C# library and builds javascript codefile from it.
Available as a VS extension at this very moment.
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@darkmatter said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
that being said... if you've seen RPG, maybe you know why i love getting to work in Javascript!
?
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@darkmatter said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
that being said... if you've seen RPG, maybe you know why i love getting to work in Javascript!
???
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@magus said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@xaade said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
maybe that's what I'll dick around with from now on. Something that reflects over a C# library and builds javascript codefile from it.
Available as a VS extension at this very moment.
Fair enough, but it uses all the basic document stuff, get element by id and stuff.
Does it have the flexibility of jQuery?
I guess you could write something on the C# side, and end up with something much more lightweight.
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@blakeyrat said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
It's been an open standard since 2002.
Oh and that idiotic open source-tards hate it because it was designed by Microsoft. To the point where, for years, they were even shitting hate on Mono project which was an open source implementation of an open standard since 2004. But no, that's not "open source enough!"
Seriously, that reasoning is bullshit.The open-source community believed that if they adopted Mono, Microsoft would patent troll them into oblivion, that's why they avoided it like the plague for a long while.
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@magnusmaster said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
The open-source community believed that if they adopted Mono, Microsoft would patent troll them into oblivion, that's why they avoided it like the plague for a long while.
I still think it can happen.
Also, java isn't opensource friendly at all. See the lawsuit from Oracle against Google for proof.
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@masonwheeler I notice that someone proposed metaclasses ;) … which I think are both fun and subtle, but quite capable of weirding out a lot of programmers. They should effectively give you access to things that are usually considered to be language operators (e.g.,
new,is) and can let you roll all sorts of things. My use of metaclasses has typically been in ways that don't make a lot of sense in C# though, due to the really very different naming semantics.
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@dkf said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
I notice that someone proposed metaclasses ;) … which I think are both fun and subtle, but quite capable of weirding out a lot of programmers.
Meh. It's a new concept to a lot of people. They'll get weirded out for a few months as the new level of abstraction breaks their brains, then realize how awesome they can be once they start working with it a bit. (See also: generics, lambdas,
async, etc...)
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@dkf said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@masonwheeler I notice that someone proposed metaclasses ;) … which I think are both fun and subtle, but quite capable of weirding out a lot of programmers. They should effectively give you access to things that are usually considered to be language operators (e.g.,
new,is) and can let you roll all sorts of things. My use of metaclasses has typically been in ways that don't make a lot of sense in C# though, due to the really very different naming semantics.A great way to do some exit trolling on a company.
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
then realize how awesome they can be once they start working with it a bit.
meh
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
They'll get weirded out for a few months as the new level of abstraction breaks their brains, then realize how awesome they can be once they start working with it a bit.
The fun really starts once you use it to get rid of things like static methods.
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@blakeyrat said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
So open source helps programming languages advance faster, unless they're Java specifically.
Didn't help JavaScript...
/runs and hides
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@xaade said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Fair enough, but it uses all the basic document stuff, get element by id and stuff.
Does it have the flexibility of jQuery?News flash: if you know what you're doing you mostly use jQuery selectors just because it's less verbose and cross-browser compatibility. Yes, vanilla JS does support fancy CSS selectors, it's just that they are (IMHO) overly verbose, and there might be some slight differences between support for utility functions like
ElementCollection.forEachin different browsers.So yeah, vanilla JS ain't that bad on its own when it comes to DOM navigation these days. jQuery is just a nice way to avoid compatibility problems for me, I don't see why a transpiler from C# couldn't do the same.
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@raceprouk said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@dragnslcr said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
It's easier to have everything in one language
Only if you're sharing code between server and client.
And why do you have to use JS for that?
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@onyx said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
jQuery is just a nice way to avoid compatibility problems for me, I don't see why a transpiler from C# couldn't do the same.
That was my thought.
You could write some less verbose statements to call the default dom C# stuff. Then it's not including everything from jQuery, only what you need.
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@asdf said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
currently being the only viable solution if you want to use the same language on the server and the client
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These allow you to write AJAX applications in Java and then compile the source to highly optimized JavaScript
You simply cannot avoid it if you're doing anything in browsers.
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Why did you think I put
?EDIT: That being said, AFAIK Google themselves are moving more towards Angular work internally and GWT itself is just going to become a transpiler, no widgets at all.
I'm not even sure if GMail still uses GWT.
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@jazzyjosh Damn: I changed my usercard to 'Princess Covfefe'.
Oh well.
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@darkmatter said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
that being said... if you've seen RPG, maybe you know why i love getting to work in Javascript!
???i still insist that is the best entry in the series, bar none.
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@accalia Agreed. 9 was close, and Chrono Trigger was slightly better but it's not technically a FF game. Pretty much everything else that's come out since the PlayStation era began has been crappy to one degree or another. :(
Filed under: And yet we keep buying them, Hope springs eternal
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@dkf said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
They'll get weirded out for a few months as the new level of abstraction breaks their brains, then realize how awesome they can be once they start working with it a bit.
The fun really starts once you use it to get rid of things like static methods.
The fun is how django's model query API works.
No need to a separate language like LINQ when metaclasses can do a better job, in the same language.
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@accalia Agreed. 9 was close, and Chrono Trigger was slightly better but it's not technically a FF game. Pretty much everything else that's come out since the PlayStation era began has been crappy to one degree or another. :(
Filed under: And yet we keep buying them, Hope springs eternal
Chronotrigger is an honorary member. it gets to come to all the FF parties. i'll use it to replace the XV's
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@accalia said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
i'll use it to replace the
XV'sMMOs, because seriously, who ever thought that would be a good idea?FTFY.
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@accalia said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
i'll use it to replace the
XV'sMMOs, because seriously, who ever thought that would be a good idea?FTFY.
meh. i thought the idea of FF MMOs was interesting enough to be worth the shot. but yeah the execution...... almost worse than XV..... almost.
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@dse said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
The fun is how django's model query API works.
No need to a separate language like LINQ when metaclasses can do a better job, in the same language.
Upon a admittedly cursory examination, that document doesn't appear to say anything about metaclasses. What am I missing?
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@accalia said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
meh. i thought the idea of FF MMOs was interesting enough to be worth the shot. but yeah the execution...... almost worse than XV..... almost.
I don't get all the hate directed at XV, TBH. It wasn't amazing, but it felt like they're really trying. Which is more than can be said for VIII or X or XIII.
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@dse said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
The fun is how django's model query API works.
No need to a separate language like LINQ when metaclasses can do a better job, in the same language.
Upon a admittedly cursory examination, that document doesn't appear to say anything about metaclasses. What am I missing?
The data model is in Python, and uses metaclasses. Behind the code, it all is translated to SQL and joins, ...
The implementation is metaclasses, but it blends in so smoothly that there is no need to mention the fact.
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@accalia said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
meh. i thought the idea of FF MMOs was interesting enough to be worth the shot. but yeah the execution...... almost worse than XV..... almost.
I don't get all the hate directed at XV, TBH. It wasn't amazing, but it felt like they're really trying. Which is more than can be said for VIII or X or XIII.
/me hasn't played the game, was actually hoping for someone to come and defend it properly so that she would have a reason to play it.
Yeah, they did try with the latest one, but.... well i have a hard time trusting a game that actually makes it into lists of games that spent the longest time in development hell...... such a bad track record with those games.
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@accalia said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
/me hasn't played the game, was actually hoping for someone to come and defend it properly so that she would have a reason to play it.
OK, the two big complaints about it seem to be that the battle system is weird, and the plot is incoherent.
- Yeah, it's not the standard FF battle system we all know and love. Someone on the FF team seems to be a big Kingdom Hearts fan. If you've played the KH games, you'll do fine.
- There's a lot of missing exposition, because it assumes you've watched the supplementary materials already. My copy came with two discs: one was the game, the other was a movie. Watch the movie before playing the game, and the game will make a lot more sense.
Yeah, they did try with the latest one, but.... well i have a hard time trusting a game that actually makes it into lists of games that spent the longest time in development hell...... such a bad track record with those games.
Well, it's definitely not Duke Nukem Forever. (Never played that, but... I've heard the stories.) There are a bunch of things that could do with some improvement, but they're definitely making a real effort, (and they are improving things, with updates,) and the villain kind of reminds me of Kefka, in a "how can we make a villain that will remind the audience of Kefka without them accusing us of making a villain who's an obvious Kefka ripoff?" way. (If that doesn't make much sense, play the game and you'll see what I mean.)
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@accalia I think the biggest problem people have is that the game is a sequel to a movie that you need to have seen, and a bunch of stuff was missing at launch. People seemed confident that it would be better by now, but I haven't paid any attention since.
Now I want to go play through Chrono Cross again...
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@masonwheeler It was a great game. Possibly as good as the original, different as it is.
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@magus said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@masonwheeler It was a great game. Possibly as good as the original, different as it is.
Was that the shit heap that was on Playstation? The one with the big crazy marketing blitz? If so, you are wrong.
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@mikehurley Chrono Cross was on Playstation, but didn't have very much marketing and was pretty much overlooked by most people, who just wanted Final Fantasy. It has better reviews to this day than FFVII, and one of the best video game soundtracks of all time.
Having 40~ characters was probably a mistake, though.
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@magus said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@mikehurley Chrono Cross was on Playstation, but didn't have very much marketing and was pretty much overlooked by most people, who just wanted Final Fantasy. It has better reviews to this day than FFVII, and one of the best video game soundtracks of all time.
Having 40~ characters was probably a mistake, though.
I seem to remember seeing a lot of TV commercials for it when it was released, on a variety of channels (ending with the PS Robot Lady saying "Playstation!").
I remember the game itself being meh, but it was a mistake to sell it as a sequel to Chrono Trigger. The only links I really remember were the world and a vague mention of Luca. Maybe if you did a bunch of screwing around you met her?
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@magus If it were a standalone game, I might agree. Maybe.
The problem is, it's not. It was marketed as a sequel to Chrono Trigger, which carries certain expectations with it, which it utterly, critically failed to live up to.
I remember how much I was looking forward to the sequel to Chrono Trigger, back before CC came out. I still hope I'll play it someday, but as far as I'm concerned we've never seen one. Chrono Cross is by no means a CT game. It's a poorly-done knockoff of Xenogears, in a fantasy island setting instead of an apocalyptic giant robot setting, with a few CT-ish elements awkwardly grafted onto it so they could pass it off as a CT game, which feel really badly out of place when they show up, because Chrono Cross is actually Xenogears: Island Edition and not a CT game.
"Sure," some will say, "you can find superficial similarities between any two RPGs." But the similarities to Xenogears are highly specific and plot-relevant. Can you show me any other game in which the principal villain in the early game turns out to be, in some bizarre way, both the protagonist and the protagonist's father? Where you visit the place where Save Points are manufactured, and find out that they're not simply a game convention, but are actual in-universe devices created by the bad guys for spying on the people and keeping them under control? Where the hero's enigmatic love interest turns out to be a reincarnation of a woman from ancient times, created specifically to help bring down an evil omnicidal god? Where the reason the hero is special is because long ago, another version of himself came into contact with a mystical power source with a connection to said evil omnicidal god? Not to mention:
- Fei / Serge both get their "secret savings" of 200 G by rummaging around in their rooms at the beginning of the game.
- Both games introduce a "could've been" love interest for the hero right at the start, but then end up jettisoning her fairly soon. (Of course, Leena has it much easier than poor Alice...)
- Both games take a real-world debate about primeval times and reinvent it to provide a backstory (creationism vs. evolution in Xenogears, "who killed the dinosaurs"? in Chrono Cross)
- Both games have a fairly similar battle system
- Both games use fictionalized versions of real-world science (quantum theory / gravity in Cross, nanotechnology in Xenogears) to drive quite a few plot devices.
- Demi-humans!
- Both games feature an annoying "Scrappy" character with a "cute" speech impediment / vocal tic (Chu-Chus in Xenogears, the CHA family and Poshul in Chrono Cross)
- Both games were so over-ambitious and plot-filled that they fell prey to Disc Two Syndrome.
- Both games feature a deliberately annoying level where you have to climb and explore without much direction and can easily take a fall (the Tower of Babel in Xenogears, Terra Tower in Chrono Cross)
I could go on, but you get the point. Chrono Cross would have been a lot better if they had left the CT/Radical Dreamers elements out of it and simply produced Xenogears: Island Edition, which is essentially what the game turned out to be. The problem is, it was marketed as Chrono Trigger 2 rather than Xenogears: Island Edition, and the CT elements, what few there are, just don't fit.
Among other things, Chrono Trigger was known for its groundbreaking battle system, in which the position of each combatant on the battlefield is of paramount importance, every combination of two characters has several Dual Techs available, and every combination of three characters that includes Crono (and a few that don't) have an exceptionally powerful Triple Tech. When I heard that Chrono Cross was going to have over 40 playable characters, I remember thinking "how in the world will they come up with that many Dual and Triple Techs?" The answer is... they just didn't bother. There are only 9 Dual Techs and 2 Triple Techs in the entire game, and rather than being the mainstay of your combat strategy, they are usually too impractical to bother with because of the way the battle system works. (Which, by the way, completely abandoned geographical battles and dropped everyone into the same old boring "good guys line up on one side, bad guys line up on the other" system that's been around since FF1. The true heir to CT's battle system is the tragically underrated Grandia series.)
But the problems with trying to present this game as a Chrono Trigger sequel go well beyond the battle system and straight to the heart of the game itself. Simply put, this game stomps all over everything that made Chrono Trigger fun and laughs sadistically in fans' faces over it. Never before and never again (at least not until Mass Effect 3) was I ever so completely disgusted again by a sequel's outright contempt for its source material. (And Mass Effect 3 at least felt like a proper Mass Effect game most of the way through, right up until the last two scenes went and crapped all over the entire franchise. CC can't even say that much.) As another reviewer put it:
The problem is that it goes out of its way to slap fans of Chrono Trigger in the face. The latter parts of the game emphasize that everything bad that's happened happened because the characters of Chrono Trigger defeated Lavos. Chrono Trigger's story was a story of hope, about the characters openly defying the end of the world, and taking fate into their own hands. It was a story about how you shouldn't be afraid to create a better future, even if it means challenging a seemingly unavoidable destiny.
But no, instead we get Chrono Cross telling us that everything that the characters of Chrono Trigger did was wrong. And then we see the game brutally destroy every single one of the characters we'd grown to love in Chrono Trigger. The kingdom of Guardia has fallen, and Crono and Marle are presumed dead. Lucca is killed by the main villain of the game, Lynx. This is despite the fact that they killed a monster capable of single-handedly ending the world, and yet they somehow couldn't defend themselves. And then there's Robo, who dies only moments after he's re-introduced.
The only consolation is that the events of the game are erased from history in the end, but we don't get to see what the consequences of that are."
Between all that, the introduction of a bunch of bizarre thematic elements, (Aliens? Animated voodoo dolls? Talking pink dogs? Glam rock bands? Mexican luchadors? Plant-people? Seriously?!?), and turning the Masamune into an evil force of corruption for no reason at all, I'm a bit astounded when I see people talk about how they enjoyed Chrono Cross. It might have made a decent game as Xenogears: Island Edition, but trying to pass it off as a CT sequel completely ruined it.
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@masonwheeler So basically, all of that is wrong.
Yes, killing Lavos created the balanced time-vortex that causes the main conflict in the sequel, but not doing so was the end of the world. I don't have any problem with there being consequences for messing with the timeline: That's what Chrono Trigger was all about. (Though really, it's all Belthazar's fault)
Yes, everyone probably died, though we don't know what happened to most of the characters at all.
The main thing that confuses people is that they don't explain much of why things are so different until near the end, and in a way that many people seem to have missed, but everything really does fit together quite well.
The lack of triple-techs is probably my biggest disappointment in the game, but it's minor: I really like the combat, which pretty much forces careful teamwork if you want to use summons and in general just has an unusual feel to it that I'd love to see more of (The Four Heroes of Light tried, kind of badly).
But to say it shows contempt for the original is insane: it solves something the original left open in a really nice way, while changing the axis of time travel and still mixing in timelines created by the original (One you prevent, and one you create) to be thrown in the mix.
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@magus said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
@masonwheeler So basically, all of that is wrong.
Hmm...
Yes, killing Lavos created the balanced time-vortex that causes the main conflict in the sequel, but not doing so was the end of the world. I don't have any problem with there being consequences for messing with the timeline: That's what Chrono Trigger was all about. (Though really, it's all Belthazar's fault)
What Chrono Trigger was all about was positive consequences for messing with the timeline: using time travel to fix problems.
Yes, everyone probably died, though we don't know what happened to most of the characters at all.
Umm? We do find out what happened to most of the [principal] characters, and it's horrific in pretty much every case.
The main thing that confuses people is that they don't explain much of why things are so different until near the end, and in a way that many people seem to have missed, but everything really does fit together quite well.
Possibly because a lot of the explanation is in a part of the plot that's optional and easily missable. I didn't even find it on my first playthrough; I found a guide on the Internet that showed there was a huge amount of content--including almost all of the relevant-to-this-being-a-CT-sequel stuff--that I had somehow skipped entirely.
The lack of triple-techs is probably my biggest disappointment in the game, but it's minor:
How is one of the most distinguishing characteristics of Chrono Trigger's battle system "minor"?
I really like the combat, which pretty much forces careful teamwork if you want to use summons and in general just has an unusual feel to it that I'd love to see more of (The Four Heroes of Light tried, kind of badly).
Again, have a look at Grandia. That's the series that took the basic concept of CT's battle system (teamwork, geometrical positioning, etc,) and expanded on it in a good way.
But to say it shows contempt for the original is insane: it solves something the original left open in a really nice way, while changing the axis of time travel and still mixing in timelines created by the original (One you prevent, and one you create) to be thrown in the mix.
When you say you don't know what happened to most of the characters at all, maybe you missed the same stuff I missed at first? Find the part where it explains what happened to them, and then you'll understand what I mean about showing contempt for the original.
Also, how does disputing one minor point I made (and agreeing with a few others) equate to "basically, all of that is wrong" when you didn't even touch on the thesis, that this felt far more like Xenogears than Chrono Trigger, to the point where it was incredibly deceptive to market it as a Chrono Trigger sequel?
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@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Umm? We do find out what happened to most of the [principal] characters, and it's horrific in pretty much every case.
Never Chrono or Marle. Somehow, they aren't ever mentioned. Robo... wasn't even the same Robo, since his timeline was erased by killing Lavos. They tell you that in CT. So we know that Lucca had a tragic end, and have no idea about the others... but this also takes place in a timeline where the events of CT could never have happened.
@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
Again, have a look at Grandia. That's the series that took the basic concept of CT's battle system (teamwork, geometrical positioning, etc,) and expanded on it in a good way.
I was saying my grief with CC's combat is minor, because I like what it does do.
@masonwheeler said in What programming language people are migrating to?:
to the point where it was incredibly deceptive to market it as a Chrono Trigger sequel?
It's literally a Chrono Trigger sequel and nothing else. Without CT's plot, the universe this takes place in, where Crono may not have even been born, could not exist. The person responsible for the whole mess introduces himself to you at the beginning of the game, and never admits to being the cause, and is somehow not the main antagonist ever, but I find all of that incredibly interesting.
Belthasar's studies of wormholes deleted an entire future, and brought remnants of a devoured timeline into the distant past to balance the time crash, giving the Time Devourer another fooithold on reality. Just that alone is awesome. And then the jerk shows up in your time to tell you about how dangerous messing with the fabric of reality is!
But sure, we'll go with your, "Breath of the Wild should have been called a Skyrim sequel, it's way more similar to that!" craziness.
?
Making queries | Django documentation
