How did you start hating opensource?
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@marczellm said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Yep.
HAR HAR GUYZZZ!!~!! When Blakeyrat said "somebody fucked up" the little imaginary fairy whispered into my ear "and he means nobody at Microsoft could ever fuck up ever, I am an imaginary fairy!" and now I'm going to post ALAL KINDS OF SUPPORT ARTICLWES!! saying Microsoft tells me to go iunto the registry I am such a clever conversationalist this behavior is not at all fucking irritating as fuck!!!!!!!!!!
For the record: "somebody fucked up" can include Microsoft employees, you fucking morons. Now move on and be oh-so-clever about something else.
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@blakeyrat He created ffmpeg and QEMU, how is that not productive? I like being able to watch videos on my Ubuntu laptop, and VMs are cool too.
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@fbmac said in How did you start hating opensource?:
He created ffmpeg
Right; which is not an application. It's just boring useless shit that's pointless unless an actually application is wrapped around it. Except since ffmpeg is implemented as a CLI tool and not a proper library, all the applications wrapped around it are also shitty.
If he had created Vegas, or Adobe Premiere, that'd be pretty impressive. But no, he just wanked around with the boring bits and ignored the actually difficult portion of writing software.
Which, to be fair, so did Linus when he created Git, but at least Git can be used to do things.
@fbmac said in How did you start hating opensource?:
and QEMU
I don't know what the fuck that is.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@fbmac Has that guy, at any point, actually written a finished application? Even one?
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/l/leonardoda380290.html
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Right; which is not an application. It's just boring useless shit that's pointless unless an actually application is wrapped around it. Except since ffmpeg is implemented as a CLI tool and not a proper library, all the applications wrapped around it are also shitty.
There are libraries in the ffmpeg project, that were used for players like VLC, IIRC
@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I don't know what the fuck that is.
It's something like virtualbox's granddaddy. Plus, it can emulate different CPUs. You won't like it much because it's CLI based. Again, IIRC.
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@blakeyrat FFMPEG just uses a bunch of libraries under the covers. The project has its own, like libavcodec. What's kind of funny, is the CLI is a better interface than using the library (at least from what I remember when I looked into the library a few years ago). The biggest problem with the library is it would be helped by a "middle tier" interface. For instance, allow specifying filters by calling a function with the same type of filter string you'd use on the CLI instead of having to build a linked list or whatever crazy data structure the library itself wanted.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@fbmac said in How did you start hating opensource?:
He created ffmpeg
Right; which is not an application. It's just boring useless shit that's pointless unless an actually application is wrapped around it.
TIL : if it doesn't have a GUI, it's not an application.
You can use ffmpeg from the CLI.
Example : ffmpeg -i SomeVideo.mkv -vcodec copy -acodec copy SomeVideo.mp4@fbmac said in How did you start hating opensource?:
and QEMU
I don't know what the fuck that is.
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@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
TIL : if it doesn't have a GUI, it's not an application.
And thus concludes the @blakeyrat school of application design. The boring library shit that actually does the shit is worthless, but you'd better have a whiz-bang GUI by golly.
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@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
FFMPEG just uses a bunch of libraries under the covers.
What the fuck ever.
All I know is every video editing program that uses FFMPEG is a usability nightmare.
If the open source world had a video library that didn't suck, maybe there'd be some open source competition for those video editing apps I just mentioned.
@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
TIL : if it doesn't have a GUI, it's not an application.
True.
@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
You can use ffmpeg from the CLI.
Example : ffmpeg -i SomeVideo.mkv -vcodec copy -acodec copy SomeVideo.mp4Great, you can use the video software from an interface THAT CAN'T DISPLAY GRAPHICS what a genius idea, look out Sony Vegas FFMPEG is going to eat your lunch with this amazing genius concept.
@anotherusername said in How did you start hating opensource?:
The boring library shit that actually does the shit is worthless, but you'd better have a whiz-bang GUI by golly.
It's not worthless, it's pointless. Doubly-so if the library shit is written in a way that precludes someone else from coming by and making a quality GUI for it, which FFMPEG (judging from video applications that use it) certainly is.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
TIL : if it doesn't have a GUI, it's not an application.
True.
Micro-Soft doesn't agree with you:
How to: Create CLR Console Applications (C++/CLI)
Learn how to create CLR Console App projects to use C++/CLI in Visual Studio.
@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
You can use ffmpeg from the CLI.
Example : ffmpeg -i SomeVideo.mkv -vcodec copy -acodec copy SomeVideo.mp4Great, you can use the video software from an interface THAT CAN'T DISPLAY GRAPHICS what a genius idea, look out Sony Vegas FFMPEG is going to eat your lunch with this amazing genius concept.
The CLI can display video : telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl
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@blakeyrat why do you need Vegas (or any graphical interface) to transcode/mux/demux media?
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@TimeBandit said in How did you start hating opensource?:
The CLI can display video : telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl
Or libcaca, so called because it looks like shit.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
All I know is every video editing program that uses FFMPEG is a usability nightmare.
Pretty much every video editing program that isn't expensive is a usability nightmare. I don't know why. It's a niche, and it's hard to do well, apparently.
There are video players that use FFMPEG, and a few tools that extract an MP3 from video also use it. They generally just work, and they're not usability nightmares. Although, I imagine you'd probably think that they are, so I won't bother dropping any names.
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
why do you need Vegas (or any graphical interface) to transcode/mux/demux media?
Lessee, maybe because I'm a human being who can't figure out that CLI gibberish and wants an undo command in case I fuck something up? Maybe I want a preview of how the various settings look before I commit to spending hours converting the video? Maybe because it's 2016 and WHY THE FUCK WOULDN'T THERE BE A GUI THIS ISN'T FUCKING 1978 ANYMORE FUUUCK!
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@ChrisH said in How did you start hating opensource?:
But it's hidden under heaps and heaps of shit written by people I would gladly pay to never touch a computer in their lives again.
As I said earlier, Sturgeon's Law hits things which are freely accessible a lot harder than things that are more selectively accessible, because the law in it's original context assumed that an editorial process has already weeded out the absolute worst material, so that the crappy stuff people can actually see is what still managed to get through that process somehow. This is indeed the case with closed source, if only because companies do need to make some attempt to avoid embarrassing themselves in front of their customers if they want to keep making money; whereas not only is OSS all in plain view, so is the development process itself to a large degree, so even the mistakes that otherwise competent coders all make are there for anyone to see.
In any case, as I've said before, this is only one small part of the problem, and comes with a host of related issues as well, most notably the assumptions that a) everyone using the software will be a developer themselves, and willing to spend time contributing to every single OSS package they use regardless of their skill level and domain knowledge, and b) that software is always ready for adoption regardless of the state it is in (an attitude rare among the better developers, but seen far too often in mediocre ones and rampant among bad ones).
And don't get me started on stupid hipster bullshit hypes from people who can't afford enough vocals for their project names.
Or basically everything on a .io domain.Vocals?
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@Maciejasjmj Or my favorite (even if it doesn't output on the CLI) VLC's ASCII art output :
Output video as ASCII art in VLC on this lazy Friday | TechCrunch
It's Friday. You probably have loads of work but no motivation. I know that feeling. So why not fire up VLC and watch videos Matrix-style. Here's how you
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@anotherusername said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Pretty much every video editing program that isn't expensive is a usability nightmare. I don't know why. It's a niche, and it's hard to do well, apparently.
But open source is SO MUCH BETTER THAN PROPRIETARY SOFTWAREZZZ why haven't they conquered that hurdle after all they are SO MUCH BETTER at writing the softwares!
Seriously, do you guys need reasons to dislike open source? Just read your own posts. Read every post. Here's one:
Node.JS broke their debug build so it crashes if there's long file names, Ben L's talking about that one right now.
How about Node.JS hard-codes security certificates instead of reading them from the OS like it's supposed to? heterodox is talking about that in the same thread as Ben L.
That's two reasons to dislike open source right there. I'm sure if I went through any randomly-selected 48 hours of posts on this forum I'd find a dozen more.
You guys do NOTHING but talk about all these shitty flaws and bugs in open source software. Every open source product I've used is a bug-filled mess. We're POSTING THIS on a open source forum which is a bug filled mess.
"Why do you hate open source?"
"GEE WHAT A MYSTERY! CALL SCOOBY-DOO!"
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@blakeyrat maybe you should downscale and/or trim the video before applying settings. Y'know, like anyone else who deals with rendering high-resolution images.
either way, I'd rather spend 10 minutes figuring out how to make the program do what I want than spend 10 minutes dicking around with the mouse clicking options in submenus and random-ass dialogs.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
But open source is SO MUCH BETTER THAN PROPRIETARY SOFTWAREZZZ why haven't they conquered that hurdle after all they are SO MUCH BETTER at writing the softwares!
goddammit who even said that
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@ScholRLEA said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Vocals?
From the context, this is probably a non-native English speaker and the word he's looking for is "vowels".
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
either way, I'd rather spend 10 minutes figuring out how to make the program do what I want than spend 10 minutes dicking around with the mouse clicking options in submenus and random-ass dialogs.
You can do what the fuck you want. But if you're asking me what I think of open source, and the open source product didn't spend even 10 seconds thinking about how easy it is for people to use it, then I'm going to say it's shitty.
Because it's fucking shitty.
And if you say "this guy is open source superhero role model" and I look at his webpage and he's never ONCE actually completed an application, then yes, I'm going to point that shit out. Because if the superhero role model of your movement hasn't once actually completed an application, what does that say about your movement? What's the end goal? To dick around writing CLI bullshit, or to produce quality software?
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@blakeyrat I think the main reason why people here get riled up is because you seem to imply that because of these flaws, open source is worse than closed-source. is this true?
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It's not worthless, it's pointless. Doubly-so if the library shit is written in a way that precludes someone else from coming by and making a quality GUI for it, which FFMPEG (judging from video applications that use it) certainly is.
There are only two reasons to use FFMPEG itself:
- You want to do something obscure or otherwise unsupported by your video editor. For instance, I don't do any video editing but I do transcode with Handbrake (which uses the FFMPEG libs among others and has its own CLI the GUI calls, works quite well). In my case, I used it crop a custom amount while at the same time rotating the video from tall to wide.
- An automated video handling process.
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I think the main reason why people here get riled up is because
the rat's a pretty good riler and people let him rile them.
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@bb36e It hasn't produced a quality video editing program, while closed source has produced several. We just finished talking about that. So there must be something wrong with it.
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@blakeyrat Mostly I'm just sick of hearing how much "better" open source is when it's demonstrably not better at any of the things I value in software.
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@bb36e It's worst than this. He's convinced that, if Micro-Soft was to open source Visual Studio, it would instantly become the worst IDE ever.
You don't even have to change a line of code, just publish the source and Voilà !
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@blakeyrat I'm not disputing the argument that open-source software is generally shit. my question is whether or not open-source software is generally more shit than other software
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
my question is whether or not open-source software is generally more shit than other software
Run Word and OpenOffice side-by-side and you tell me.
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@dkf said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@Kian said in How did you start hating opensource?:
OTOH, that's hardly the whole of the open source space. Not everyone is a communist jerkwad.Which brings us to a side issue regarding the FSF, GNU, and many other big players in the OSS game: most of them are politically Libertarian. Not Randian Objectivists1, naturally, but several do identify with Heinlein's version of Objectivism, and most - including RMS, ESR, and Mitch Kapor - see themselves as dedicated supporters of capitalism and opponents of government interference. Watching them justify their positions on closed source relative to this can be both amusing and annoying.
[1]: For that matter, Ron Paul, and his son Rand who is named after Ayn Rand, aren't either, as they both also claim to be Christians. Watching them trying to weasel out of that kind of cognitive dissonance is interesting, too, but hey, the whole concept of popular sovereignty contradicts Abrahamist views of morality and law, anyway, so they aren't alone in that boat.
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@blakeyrat can't, office is too expensive. what has your experience been with word vs {open, libre}office?
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
To dick around writing CLI bullshit, or to produce quality software?
The main goal should be quality, whether it's CLI or GUI. True, many apps could really use a quality GUI and only have a CLI. That doesn't mean all CLI's are crap. Given the complicated tasks FFMPEG can do, I'd say its CLI is actually fairly high quality. Also, sometimes simple operations are better with a CLI. I can type "mkdir new-subdir" quicker than messing around in Explorer. Keyboard shortcuts don't count. I generally consider them GUI CLI's. Especially apps that love their keyboard chords (I'm looking at you Jetbrains software).
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
my question is whether or not open-source software is generally more shit than other software
Yes. Because ignoring the more obvious facts like missing requirements and QA and stuff, in addition to the shitty code you also get to enjoy the shitty attitude of its maker.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@bb36e It hasn't produced a quality video editing program, while closed source has produced several. We just finished talking about that. So there must be something wrong with it.
That argument is basically analogous to "privately owned corporations are obviously shit incapable of accomplishing anything worthwhile... just look, they've never successfully gone to the moon".
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
my question is whether or not open-source software is generally more shit than other software
Run Word and OpenOffice side-by-side and you tell me.
I use Word at work and LibreOffice at home and I'm satisfied with both. I also don't tend to do anything fancy with either. I think the fanciest thing I usually do is change fonts and colors. Sometimes I even embed images! All of these operations work equally well in both apps.
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
office is too expensive
I have free license for the latest Office at work and home, and I still don't use it.
When you're not paying for the product, you are the product etc...
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@marczellm said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Yep.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/928218Even Microsoft hates the office team. In the leaked Windows 2000 source code, they basically call them fucktards
@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
it's 2016 and WHY THE FUCK WOULDN'T THERE BE A GUI THIS ISN'T FUCKING 1978 ANYMORE FUUUCK!
Honestly, I hate the stupid views of "just magically understand the stupid magic of this system or else you aren't 1337 enough"
No, fuck you. If I have to completely understand the subject domain AND read half your source code just to use your program, then YOU are not 1337 enough. Have some goddamned pride in your work
@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Node.JS broke their debug build so it crashes
Is there a(n) "I hate Node.js" thread somewhere I can go to?
@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
never ONCE actually completed an application
Honestly I think writing libraries can be useful if there is a need for them or they are just that good. I don't know if FFMPEG is either
@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
with word vs {open, libre}office
Every second I have spent using openoffice have been miserable. I'd rather use my version of office '97, it had more features, ran better, and looked better too
@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
mkdir new-subdir" quicker than messing around in Explorer.
Really? Doesn't hitting a single function key do that?
Looks like its actually ctrl-shift-n
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@mrguyorama said in How did you start hating opensource?:
If I have to completely understand the subject domain AND read half your source code just to use your program, then YOU are not 1337 enough. Have some goddamned pride in your work
I agree that terrible interface is a sin and anyone who makes a bad interface is a terrible person, but how much knowledge is necessary? Because when companies strive to make their interfaces more accessible, they usually remove the parts that made it easy/fast/intuitive for knowledgeable users. so the people who use the software on a more frequent basis get shafted to make things easier for users who use it less often. i'm not saying everything should require you to read a 10-page
infopage (because that means using Emacs controls) but there has to be a middle ground.
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@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
mkdir new-subdir" quicker than messing around in Explorer.
Really? Doesn't hitting a single function key do that?
Looks like its actually ctrl-shift-n
If your GUI is better or quicker because of hotkeys, I'd argue those hotkeys are a GUI equivalent of a CLI. If that's your primary source of being better, then I'd say it really isn't better. I'm not saying hotkeys are bad. I'm simply pointing out that hotkeys aren't really that different than having to memorize CLI commands. There's a set of basics for copy, cut, paste, open, save, and print that are reasonable and pretty universal these days. But once your app starts throwing various chords in (like Ctrl-shift-N), I fail to see how that's any different than remembering or looking up CLI commands. At least for simple stuff.
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@mrguyorama said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Really? Doesn't hitting a single function key do that?
Looks like its actually ctrl-shift-n
This is nice. What would be even nicer is if it were discoverable. When I look under
context menu->New, there's no hotkey listed for the operation.@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
If your GUI is better or quicker because of hotkeys, I'd argue those hotkeys are a GUI equivalent of a CLI. If that's your primary source of being better, then I'd say it really isn't better. I'm not saying hotkeys are bad. I'm simply pointing out that hotkeys aren't really that different than having to memorize CLI commands.
The difference is that hotkeys (generally, with the one under discussion being a noticeable exception) are discoverable. When you go to perform the action the normal GUI way, there's a friendly, standardized GUI hint sitting right there pointing out, "hey, you can also perform this same operation with a hotkey."
CLI has no real equivalent.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Great, you can use the video software from an interface THAT CAN'T DISPLAY GRAPHICS what a genius idea, look out Sony Vegas FFMPEG is going to eat your lunch with this amazing genius concept.
But whoever own Sony Vegas isn't giving me their stuff for free.
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@masonwheeler said in How did you start hating opensource?:
The difference is that hotkeys (generally, with the one under discussion being a noticeable exception) are discoverable.
Fair enough. I guess my point was from the perspective of using a system where you're already familiar with it. Also, if I'm frequently going to the menus to discover what the hotkey is, I may as well use the menu. It'll probably depend on how often I use a certain feature - often enough to remember it?
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@masonwheeler said in How did you start hating opensource?:
This is nice. What would be even nicer is if it were discoverable. When I look under context menu->New, there's no hotkey listed for the operation
That's a really good point. OSX does this well on context menus.
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@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
The main goal should be quality, whether it's CLI or GUI.
It can't possibly be quality software without a GUI.
That's like, to use the car metaphor, "the main goal should be a luxury car, whether it has AC or not". Well, no. You can't be a luxury car without air conditioning. That is one of the defining things.
@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
True, many apps could really use a quality GUI and only have a CLI.
And the vast majority of them are open source. Hm!
@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
That doesn't mean all CLI's are crap.
No; but I'd go as far as saying all current CLIs are crap. Even if you made the best CLI interface for your app possible, you're still constrained to what Bash supports, which is shitty crap. PowerShell's slightly better, but still miles away from what I'd call "good".
The problem isn't that the CLI is text-based, the problem is that it's glommed-together crap with absolutely no thought or effort put into usability.
@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Also, sometimes simple operations are better with a CLI. I can type "mkdir new-subdir" quicker than messing around in Explorer. Keyboard shortcuts don't count.
Why not? Because if you counted them it would demolish your argument? Fuck off with that shit.
@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I generally consider them GUI CLI's.
That's gibberish. Keyboard shortcuts are have been part of GUIs since day one. Apple's original 1984 Macintosh had plenty of well-thought-out keyboard shortcuts for virtually every task imaginable.
@anotherusername said in How did you start hating opensource?:
That argument is basically analogous to "privately owned corporations are obviously shit incapable of accomplishing anything worthwhile... just look, they've never successfully gone to the moon".
Fine; but then don't tell me open source is a better development methodology, if it can't even produce a genre of application I use several times a week.
@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I use Word at work and LibreOffice at home and I'm satisfied with both. I also don't tend to do anything fancy with either.
Or in summary, "I'm not qualified to compare the two programs, but I'm mouth-farting words into this thread anyway".
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@bb36e said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Because when companies strive to make their interfaces more accessible, they usually remove the parts that made it easy/fast/intuitive for knowledgeable users.
Not true.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Fine; but then don't tell me open source is a better development methodology, if it can't even produce a genre of application I use several times a week.
In this day of everyone putting hours of content on youtube all the time, Video applications are not a niche product. There is basically no free or OSS product to do this
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@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
I'm simply pointing out that hotkeys aren't really that different than having to memorize CLI commands.
Except the GUI does this handy thing called "drawing them to the screen" so you don't have to memorize them. That's one of the many many things that makes GUIs superior to CLIs.
@fbmac said in How did you start hating opensource?:
But whoever own Sony Vegas isn't giving me their stuff for free.
I don't care about free, I care about good.
@mikehurley said in How did you start hating opensource?:
Also, if I'm frequently going to the menus to discover what the hotkey is, I may as well use the menu. It'll probably depend on how often I use a certain feature - often enough to remember it?
That's kind of the point of putting it there.
Jesus.
Debating about the merits of a GUI with a guy who knows NOTHING about GUI design or history. This is fun and enjoyable.
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@blakeyrat said in How did you start hating opensource?:
@bb36e It hasn't produced a quality video editing program, while closed source has produced several. We just finished talking about that. So there must be something wrong with it.
I never proposed that OSS would work better for all the things
Windows 7 Creates New Folders With a Hotkey
